Affliction in Cataclysm (4.3 Release) - Page 13

zinnin · 07/26/11, 5:06 PM

Anyone have idea's on how to best utilize the t12 4pc?
With it only proccing drain souls CAST and not ticks and the new way channeling works we can spam cast drain soul to try to fish for procs, however this burns through mana at a decent rate so eventually we'll be losing GCDs to cast life tap. Anyone have a good way to model it in simcraft \ ideas?

Mentu · 08/04/11, 2:45 AM

Tonight on Alysrazor, I used Curse of Weakness with 2/2 Jinx and it seemed like it was affecting her ignition. Has anyone mentioned this?

Gosi · 08/11/11, 1:09 AM

Post removed.

netsach · 08/11/11, 5:15 AM

Zakalwe answered it yesterday in this post that Curse of Weakness with Jinx didn't change anything on Majordomo. There is no proven evidence for Alysrazor yet, as far as i know.

ihashotsforu · 08/11/11, 9:54 AM

Has anyone tested as to whether Bane of Doom is affected by your Felhunter Demon soul ability? I know the tooltip states that it affects all periodic shadow damage, but now that Bane of Doom ticks every 15 seconds I wasn't sure if it was affected or not.

If it is not, has anyone tested whether it's better to weave Agony for demon soul's, and then back to Doom when you do not have demon soul up?

Omegaspirit · 08/13/11, 6:30 PM

Bane of Doom doesn't update itself every tick unlike most other damage over time spells. So for the BoD to gain the benefit of Demon Soul you need to cast it while the buff is up.

This is true with trinket buffs and other such procs as well. That is why Rune of Zeth is in the BiS profile because you can use it every time you need to cast a new Bane of Doom.

Morninglory · 08/14/11, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaspirit

Bane of Doom doesn't update itself every tick unlike most other damage over time spells. So for the BoD to gain the benefit of Demon Soul you need to cast it while the buff is up.

This is true with trinket buffs and other such procs as well. That is why Rune of Zeth is in the BiS profile because you can use it every time you need to cast a new Bane of Doom.

What dots do you suggest automatically update themselves each tick? This is not, to my knowledge and experience, how dots behave. Dots are snapshotted on cast and on refresh -- what is dynamic is the effect of any debuffs on the target. There seems to be much confusion on this subject since 4.0.

Notoris · 08/15/11, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Morninglory

What dots do you suggest automatically update themselves each tick? This is not, to my knowledge and experience, how dots behave. Dots are snapshotted on cast and on refresh -- what is dynamic is the effect of any debuffs on the target. There seems to be much confusion on this subject since 4.0.

Check the Opening Post's chapter on 'Optimal Opener' for info on DoT behaviour regarding this subject.

Will check if BoD is an exception if nooene beats me to it.

Morninglory · 08/15/11, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Notoris

Check the Opening Post's chapter on 'Optimal Opener' for info on DoT behaviour regarding this subject.

Will check if BoD is an exception if nooene beats me to it.

Right, and it says:

During Wrath of the Lich King, DoTs did not update on a per-tick basis with boss debuffs and it was much more beneficial to open a fight by applying these debuffs (Haunt, Shadow's Embrace etc) before applying DoTs, however in 4.0.1 this was changed so that DoTs damage would update on the fly with boss debuffs.

The key words here are boss and debuffs. Things like your spell power, mastery, haste, etc. do not update on a per tick basis, rather they only update when cast or refreshed. If anyone would like to argue this point, cast a UA/corruption/immolate on a target dummy, then remove your weapon and see what happens.

VoidStar · 08/15/11, 8:16 AM

It is my suspicion that Critical Strike Chance is a static property of a DoT once applied to a target as well, i.e. it's not simply that the Shadow & Flame or Critical Mass debuffs do not seem to affect ticks after they're applied, but that no aura or other ability that affects critical strike chance taken will affect ticks if that effect is applied after the DoT is applied, the corrolary being that if a critical chance taken effect ends while a DoT is on the target then any remaining ticks of DoTs will still be affected by it.

Off the top of my head, it's actually quite hard to find dynamic critical chance taken effects that work on spells that could be used to test this theory, the relevent Tank abilities only work on physical hits and resilience is flat damage reduction now. You could try DoTting up Rage Face during Face Rage to see if the 50% crit bonus carries on for the ticks after Face Rage is broken to test for the "positive" side of this effect perhaps. You'll likely be accused of meter-padding, but as long you explain that it's for science you may get away with it.

Paxtez · 08/15/11, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by VoidStar

You could try DoTting up Rage Face during Face Rage to see if the 50% crit bonus carries on for the ticks after Face Rage is broken to test for the "positive" side of this effect perhaps. You'll likely be accused of meter-padding, but as long you explain that it's for science you may get away with it.

A few things:
1) IIRC the crit chance is +100% now after a hotfix nerf.
2) Rageface's effect of taking extra crit when face raging would be a debuff, it would apply for each dot tick.
3) It wouldn't be 'meter-padding' it would be doing damage to a target that is your current priority.
4) If it did work it would provide a notable dps increase, BoD and UA with a 100% crit

Notoris · 08/15/11, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaspirit

Bane of Doom doesn't update itself every tick unlike most other damage over time spells. So for the BoD to gain the benefit of Demon Soul you need to cast it while the buff is up.

This is true with trinket buffs and other such procs as well. That is why Rune of Zeth is in the BiS profile because you can use it every time you need to cast a new Bane of Doom.

Originally Posted by Notoris

Check the Opening Post's chapter on 'Optimal Opener' for info on DoT behaviour regarding this subject.

Will check if BoD is an exception if nooene beats me to it.

I did and found that BoD does indeed check up on debuffs on the target each tick simply by applying a CoE after 30 secs of BoD and watching the last 2 ticks go up 8% (no crits).
And as the OP and Morninglory correctly state what happens with your spell after it lands and what you do to buff yourself after are completely different things. Once your dot leaves your hands it only cares for stuff on the target.
As the OP also says there is a curiousity with Shadow Embrace since it though being a debuff on the target acts like it is a buff on those applying stuff to the target instead. So extra stacks of Shadow Embrace do not get accounted for when already applied dots tick.

To clearify:
-You press a hot key to cast corruption on your target
-Dot gathers info on all your data like sp, haste, mastery and so forth and remembers it
-Dot lands on target, checks the target's debuffs and starts timing
-Dot starts ticking checking the target's data and adding your stored info each time it ticks
So the dot gets a pack from you with it that doesn't change and it gets a pack from the target that is prone to change and your dot tick is a result of those.

I hope that makes things more clear and not more complicated

drtyx · 08/16/11, 4:38 AM

Considering all tasty procs from Corruption debuff, why applying BoD still has a higher priority than applying Corruption?

VoidStar · 08/16/11, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Paxtez

A few things:
1) IIRC the crit chance is +100% now after a hotfix nerf.
2) Rageface's effect of taking extra crit when face raging would be a debuff, it would apply for each dot tick.
3) It wouldn't be 'meter-padding' it would be doing damage to a target that is your current priority.
4) If it did work it would provide a notable dps increase, BoD and UA with a 100% crit

1) Well that would be handy.
2) That's what I suspect is not true: i.e. I suspect that the DoT will remain auto-critting after Face Rage fades if you apply the DoT while it's present.
3) I was thinking about the heroic version of the encounter where people don't generally kill Rage Face.
4) This is true, but completely irrelevent!

My contention is that it doesn't make any difference whether something is a buff or debuff, it's that some properties of DoTs are set upon cast/refresh and some are dynamic for each tick.

I susoect that Critical Strike chance, Haste, Spellpower and percentage damage changing effects from the caster for all ticks of the DoT is calculated on cast/refresh. Hit is also only taken into account here as individual ticks cannot miss. This is why Shadow & Flame and Critical Mass must be present on the target before you cast your DoTs, even though they're debuffs on the target.

I suspect that percentage damage changing effects on the target (including resistance) are the only class of effects taken into account for each tick.

Gilgrissom · 08/16/11, 12:49 PM

If I may ask, how did you get the idea of the critchance being calculated when applying the DoT and not being updated with debuffs? And, on a related note, you took the time to make two posts about this baseless assumption instead of taking the time to quickly check WoL for some facts about it?

Two minutes of searching through our logs got me the following log excerpt:

[19:06:34.000] Ewo Moonfire Rageface 3212
[19:06:34.511] Rageface gains Face Rage from Rageface
[19:06:34.511] Rageface casts Face Rage on Valdis
[19:06:34.543] Valdis afflicted by Face Rage from Rageface
[19:06:35.682] Ewo Moonfire Rageface *6714*
[19:06:36.106] Rageface Face Rage Valdis 6999
[19:06:36.425] Rageface Face Rage Valdis 9799
[19:06:36.743] Rageface Face Rage Valdis 12600
[19:06:36.743] Ewo Moonfire Rageface *6713*
[19:06:37.185] Rageface Face Rage Valdis 15399
[19:06:37.396] Rageface's Face Rage fades from Rageface
[19:06:37.800] Rageface's Face Rage fades from Valdis
[19:06:37.963] Rageface Face Rage Valdis Absorb (18199)
[19:06:38.128] Ewo Moonfire Rageface 3212

Now, Ewo is obviously a Moonkin, but I would assume that the DoTs behave the same for all classes in WoW. As you can see, the Moonfire crits while the Face Rage debuff is on Rageface, and it does not when it is not on the mob. Granted, these two ticks could be "normal" crits, independently of the 100% crit debuff but through all our 11 Wipes on Shannox that night (it is an alt run after all), there was not one single non critical DoT tick while the debuff was on Rageface, even though the DoT was not applied in that time. This can be seen here by adding the following query set (via "Paste")

[{"spellNames": ["Face Rage"]}, {"spellNames": ["Moonfire"], "targetNames": ["Rageface"]}, {"spellNames": ["Insect Swarm"], "targetNames": ["Rageface"]}]

So unless you have some numbers to back your assumption, I would say that DoTs update with buffs on the caster only when casting, but with debuffs on the Mob with every tick.