Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 4

netsach · 11/25/11, 4:41 AM

> destro aoe stun & h maloriack, conclave

As for the "stunning aoe" vs "non-stunning aoe", theres a simple fact you're missing : MOP spells changes are to be compared to MOP content, not to previous content, in which there might be no penalty to an aoe-stun. And even if you compare it to previous content, if there's no penalty in stunning adds, then the design change doesn't break anything ; if there's a penalty in stunning adds, well, destro locks simply don't aoe things down on that particular event, there are enough other specs who have non-stunning aoe to do the job.

I don't get why a design choice should fit every possible case. I mean we must simply adapt the spec/strat to the encounter. And i guess people would prefer having a special ability which is good 90% of the case, and deal with the remaining 10% in an other way.

For example, Spriest could not reasonnably use SW:death on HC baleroc while being debuffed, as it could kill themselves. Was it a design flaw from the devs on the SW:death spell ? I don't think so. It's merely a constraint on the gameplay of a specific encounter, and the way to deal with it was "simple".

Same goes for destro-aoe-stun : stunning is a "good thing" in most cases, i hope it's not removed for not being "perfect".

VoidStar · 11/25/11, 1:30 PM

This is all getting a little philosophical rather than directly being about MoP, but in my opinion adding a special effect to an ability (such as the Aftermath stun or the current glyph of Shadowflame snare) is a perfect task for a glyph or an optional talent, and is a terrible design for a mandatory level-based change.

I'm all for the Aftermath stun as a talent, I'd be even more in favor of it as a glyph: it is a useful and powerful effect that is generally very much welcome. You say yourself that "we must simply adapt the spec/strat for the encounter" but that's precisely what's so wrong about Aftermath as proposed: you have no control over it, and that is why it is poor design.

It's fine for an ability to have benefits and drawbacks if you can work around those drawbacks, or choose not to take or use the ability at all, and your SPriest case is an example of where you must forego the power of PW Death because of it's drawbacks in the encounter but the SPriest can choose to use other abilities, the same is not true of an encounter that requires AoE but does not play well with stunning effects: a MoP Destro Warlock has no consistant non-stunning AoE. That's frustrating because it's something that the player has no control over and even worse it's something that used to work but now doesn't because of the "buff".

Nehrak · 12/07/11, 5:47 PM

Calculator was updated today; change log is based on my memory of before:

Talents
- Blood Fear replaces Fear, rather than simply modifies it to instant cast and health cost.

Class Abilities
- Summon (Pet): 5 second cast time. (I think this was on the last iteration, though.)
- Soul Fire: Base cast time of 4 seconds. The double-cast-time for targets over 35% health is built-in(?) now. Decimation in Demonology is as before (reducing cast time by 2s and doubling if over the threshold).
- "Everlasting Affliction" mechanic for dots, which boosts the duration up to a given amount if the dot is refreshed (by recasting it, is the implication via Bane of Doom). Values of extension are as follows:

* Corruption: up to 27 seconds.
* Unstable Affliction: up to 23 seconds.
* Bane of Doom: up to 50% of the duration. (Presumably this is "up to 30 seconds".)
* Bane of Agony: up to 36 seconds.

Affliction
- Soulburn: Affects pet summons, Drain Life, Soul Fire, at first. Later on: Health Funnel, Fear, Curses (see below), Seed of Corruption, Demonic Circle: Teleport.
- Soulburn: Curse -- Your next curse hits everything in a 10yd radius from your target.
- Bane of Agony: Limited to 1 target.
- Curse of Exhaustion is back.

Demonology
- Wild Imps: 2 imps are summoned initially; still 10 Demonic Fury per firebolt they cast.
- Shadow Bolt: Generates 25 Demonic Fury.
- Corruption: Generates 12 Demonic Fury per damage-dealing tick.
- Soul Fire: Generates 40 Demonic Fury.
- Drain Life: Generates 10 Demonic Fury every second (every tick when haste increases?)
- (Meta) Demonic Slash: Transforms Shadow Bolt; simply deals Shadow damage. No range given to indicate if a melee or ranged attack. No Demonic Fury cost listed, either.
- (Mastery) Master Demonologist: Increases damage while in Metamorphosis by 10%. Scale amount is listed as X%, so unclear.

Destruction
- Infernal Embers: renamed Unstable Embers (but still called "Infernal" in Shadowburn's tooltip).
- Immolate: Replace Corruption at level 12; Destruction won't have both Immolate and Corruption.
- Aftermath: Rain of Fire stun occurs after Rain of Fire performs 2 (consecutive?) hits on a given target.
- Bane of Havoc: Renamed Havoc. It does not appear to have a finite duration, just the 4 charges behavior. (Also specifies "single-target" spells; did it before?)

My Thoughts
- Affliction doesn't make me feel that soul shards are a resource for it, so much as added utility to the spec. Of all of the Soulburn effects, the Curse effect is really the only one that feels greatly applicable to it. My point is: how are they a resource for the spec if they aren't directly influencing the spec? Demonic Fury and Unstable Embers explicitly affect how those relevant specs play out; they're something to pay attention to, but right now I don't get that at all from Affliction as it stands. (My personal thought would be they switch to a semi-Shadow Embrace system; basically, you'd build up "Corruption" on your target (as a bar that fills up?), which you have to maintain, and Corruption causes your dots to do more damage. It's basically a ramp-up mechanic like Shadow Embrace, slowly decays in combat, rapidly decays out of combat, and has the ability to spread it to other targets the way Death Knights do with diseases through, say, Soul Swap.)

- Demonology: Jury's out until we get everything for Metamorphosis, particularly Demonic Fury costs, pet generation of Demonic Fury (how much?), what abilities transform besides Shadow Bolt (do other DF producers transform too?).

- Destruction: It still feels like it needs another ability here; the rotation seems rather simplistic (maintain Immolate, Incinerate/Shadowburn for embers, hit Conflagrate/Soul Fire, repeat). If Hand of Gul'dan works the way I think it does (think Death Knight runes), then it seems like Destruction could benefit from a similar ability that produces an Unstable Ember. Something like an instant cast nuke that generates 1 ember, recharges slowly, but gives you a few charges early on so you can provide burst DPS up front without making it sustained burst DPS.

FlyingCow · 12/08/11, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by Nehrak

- (Meta) Demonic Slash: Transforms Shadow Bolt; simply deals Shadow damage. No range given to indicate if a melee or ranged attack. No Demonic Fury cost listed, either.

The actual description of Demonic Slash says "Tears at the enemy, instantly dealing 1280 Shadow damage", not mentioning any cast time or demonic fury generated. So i can imagine Shadow Bolt transforms into an instant cast while being in Metamorphosis at the cost of losing our main resource generator; basically limiting the length of stay in Metamorphosis while greatly empowering our main nuke. At least i would enjoy this trade-off

Originally Posted by Nehrak

- Bane of Havoc: Renamed Havoc. It does not appear to have a finite duration, just the 4 charges behavior. (Also specifies "single-target" spells; did it before?)

Yes, the wording of Havoc did not change excerpt the fact its no bane anymore.

Cybsled · 12/08/11, 8:25 AM

I'm still on the fence regarding Havoc. While it clearly has uses in PVP, in PVE the duration seems so small and the CD so long as to make you wonder if wasting a GCD casting it is worth it? I'm willing to bet it will change as we get closer to open beta.

The description of Demonic Slash also makes me think more and more it will be a melee-range (or close range) attack vs. a ranged nuke that you cast. Combined with the new immo aura (ie, hellfire), and you're looking to have a warlock spec that rewards you being really close to your enemies.

Nfariessence · 12/08/11, 9:57 AM

I'm particularly interested in the interactiveness of some of the Destruction talents. I can imagine a situation like Halfus/Maloriak/Yor'sahj where you would use the following combination: Fire&Brimstone -> Immolate -> RainOfFire -> [6 seconds] -> RoF -> [3 seconds] -> F&B -> Incinerate -> RoF and do this rotation until the adds get somewhat low in health. Each F&B -> Incinerate should generate one Unstable Ember for each target it hits meaning that when you're finally ready to finish them off you can F&B -> Conflagrate to blow them all up.

It would be really nice to have an involved AOE rotation other than just spam SoC/Hellfire/RoF while your single target goes to hell.

Dastey · 12/08/11, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Nfariessence

I'm particularly interested in the interactiveness of some of the Destruction talents. I can imagine a situation like Halfus/Maloriak/Yor'sahj where you would use the following combination: Fire&Brimstone -> Immolate -> RainOfFire -> [6 seconds] -> RoF -> [3 seconds] -> F&B -> Incinerate -> RoF and do this rotation until the adds get somewhat low in health. Each F&B -> Incinerate should generate one Unstable Ember for each target it hits meaning that when you're finally ready to finish them off you can F&B -> Conflagrate to blow them all up..

Personally I think the optimal rotation would be to leave out the Brimstone Incinerate and instead specc into Mannoroth's Fury. The brimstone should be saved in order to refresh immolate since its otherwise would be a 5 second down time on immolate

Nehrak · 12/08/11, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by FlyingCow

The actual description of Demonic Slash says "Tears at the enemy, instantly dealing 1280 Shadow damage", not mentioning any cast time or demonic fury generated. So i can imagine Shadow Bolt transforms into an instant cast while being in Metamorphosis at the cost of losing our main resource generator; basically limiting the length of stay in Metamorphosis while greatly empowering our main nuke. At least i would enjoy this trade-off

Yes, the wording of Havoc did not change excerpt the fact its no bane anymore.

On the first point, about Demonic Slash, I would think it would require Demonic Fury to use as well. The way things are worded right now, Metamorphosis is infinite*. No mention of draining Demonic Fury, how long it lasts, and so on. They flat out said that Meta abilities are going to use it, and yet Demonic Slash just says: "Oh hai, you does Shadow damages". There's also the matter of what happens with Corruption, Soul Fire and Drain Life while Meta is active too. Do they stop producing Demonic Fury? Do they still produce it and effectively extend Meta time? Do they transform altogether and become different abilities that consume Demonic Fury too? There's arguably still quite a bit of info missing on how Demonology, at least, is going to play out.

Small thing: Demonic Slash and Shadow Bolt both list dealing the same amount of damage. I'm not seeing a main nuke empowering here until you get Mastery, when Meta, at least, gets a damage bonus. This is, again, as the tooltips are worded, though. (Now, if Demonic Slash is an instant, melee-range ability, then sure, I can see the effective boost.)

* (I realize that this is likely not going to be the case when Pandaria hits beta; it's a quibble of sorts, I know, but I wish they/Blizzard had been a bit more comprehensive with the info, specifically the basics like "Meta consumes DF to maintain" put in the tooltip.)

Nfariessence · 12/08/11, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dastey

Personally I think the optimal rotation would be to leave out the Brimstone Incinerate and instead specc into Mannoroth's Fury. The brimstone should be saved in order to refresh immolate since its otherwise would be a 5 second down time on immolate

Enh. The actual 'opportunity cost' would be about 1-2 Immolate ticks, which is probably going to be worth much less than the difference between Immolate's tick amount x 10 foes vs. Incinerate's hit amount x 10 foes. Right now an average tick of Immolate is running about 5.6k for me whereas Incinerate is up around 17.7k. And that's before you add in what 10 x Unstable Embers is going to do to a Soul Fire or Conflagrate (especially a F&B SF/Conflag :drool: ).

Unless the geometry associated with Mannoroth's Fury is really forgiving, I can see trying to line up mobs with the boss is going to be very frustrating, very fast. The good news is you can actually do the rotation above and pick up Mannoroth's Fury for more AOE deliciousness.

topapa.garamonde · 12/24/11, 11:41 PM

I think Blizzard is totally on the right track with perfecting Demonology, the armor and other bonuses from meta were kind of a waste before, with your only cast time spell transforming into instant cast, this would not only make demonology interesting, but also more viable.

1. Fights that have phases with high amounts of movement will possibly be easier (as long as you can hit stuff in melee range)
2. Being able to cast meta anytime also adds a lot of flexibility, having the ability to pop meta early and not suffer an overall DPS loss will help with timing on bosses and avoid having to sit on meta since he is undergoing a phase requiring heavy movement by the time the CD popped.
3. The Second point is also true in PVP, currently, a LOT of casual locks have a very hard time tackling war/rogues in BGs, demo in theory is a hard counter to those classes so far.

Nfariessence · 02/15/12, 5:15 PM

Updates today! Talent calc updated! - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Things I noticed:

All Specs
* Malady is a new DOT for all specs, 2 sec cast, 1393 damage over18 second duration.
* Fel Armor is now increased armor, 10% stamina, and 10% more healing received again.
* Warlocks get a passive 5% spell power boost at level 50 via Nethermancy.
* Dark Intent is now 10% spell power to the entire raid, presumably equivalent to Elemental Shaman.
* Unending Resolve is a 50% damage reduction, spell-interrupt-proof for 12 seconds every 3 minutes.
* Everlasting Afflictions (don't see it specifically listed, might be passive as Affliction?) makes refreshing your DOTs (UA/Corruption/BoA) up their duration by 50%. [interesting to see how that will play out with BoA...]

Affliction
Nothing that looks new to me.

Demonology
* Something funky going on with Hand of Gul'dan (now instant cast, is low-range AOE, component, you get 3 charges every 15 seconds?, can build to a 100% snare??).
* Meta causes your CoE and CoW(now called Curse of Enfeblements which is CoW+CoT) to be a 20 yard aura.

Destruction
* Chaotic Energy: Soul Fire and Fel Flame cost more mana and deal 12% more damage.
* Ember Tap assumingly converts your Embers to health at 20% per tap.
* Destro loses Malady in favor of Immolate at level 12.
* Auto Wand wtf?
* Aftermath now causes RoF to stun enemies for 2 seconds if they are hit twice.
* New mechanic: Burning Embers, now created by casting Incinerate, consumed by Soul Fire, and as they stack cause damage over time to the Warlock (!).

Nfariessence · 02/15/12, 5:23 PM

Talents

* Tier 1 is still self healing.
* Tier 2 is short duration crowd control.
* Tier 3 is still damage avoidance.
* Tier 4 is movement tier (Burning Rush is now 5% health lost for 50% movement speed, lasts until cancelled)
* Tier 5 is the pet tier
* Tier 6 is new abilities. Archimonde's Vengeance is now 30% damage taken=dealt for 10 seconds AND 5% reflective damage passively unless on cooldown. Mannoroth's Fury is now 200% AOE radii.

Unknowndiv · 02/16/12, 10:38 AM

Looking at demonology talents I've noticed:
*Bane of doom deals 23,416 Shadow damage over 1 min. No more "every 15 seconds". Still has a chance to summon a wild imp (the one that strikes 5 firebolts at target and generates 10 fury per strike according to earlier version of calculator)*
*Felflame increases duration of Corruption by 6 seconds (really strange to me)*
*Immolation aura no longer costs demonic fury!*

Keldion · 02/16/12, 3:11 PM

I don't see Auto Wand functioning any differently than Auto Attack. Allowing Destruction to wand DPS while casting their spells is essentially restricting that spec to wands, and it also encroaches heavily upon hunter gameplay.

With regards to talented spells, I observed the following.

- Harvest Life's wording implies that a consistent 4% max HP/second will be awarded, regardless of how many targets are affected.
- Mortal Coil's healing is awarded only if the horror effect is successfully applied.
- Sacrificial Pact trades half your demon minion's HP for a shield worth 300% of the sacrificed health.
- Dark Bargain now prevents all damage for 10 seconds, then applies 50% of the prevented damage over the next 20 seconds. 3 minute cooldown.
- Spell Drain has been replaced by Unbound Will.
- Unbound Will is a self dispel which clears all stuns, roots, magic effects, and disorientations at the cost of 25% max health. 20 second cooldown.

Nehrak · 02/17/12, 3:11 AM

Saw these tidbits on MMO's frontpage (Source). Usual disclaimer of "in development, may change" applies, naturally.

Ember Tap (the Destruction self-heal spell) will be a, pardon the pun, heat sink for Destruction in that it will be given later in level and consume embers to cast.

Wild Imps is still in, with the following functionality:
- 100 Demonic Fury / 40 yd range
- Instant cast / 1 min cooldown
- Summons 5 Wild Imps from the Twisting Nether to cast 10 Firebolts at the target (+5 Demonic Fury per Firebolt).
- Passive: Every 20 seconds, your next Shadow Bolt summons a Wild Imp. This effect is disabled while on cooldown.

Malady is a generic Shadow dot meant to be replaced by Immolate (Destro) and Corruption (Aff/Demo). (It makes me wonder why they don't simply just make a new Demonology-specific dot that could do Shadowflame damage or something. In other words, give each spec its signature nuke and dot.)

Dark Soul will be a spec-specific replacement to Demon Soul, with the below effects. Instant cast, 2 minute cooldown.

Dark Soul: Misery (Affliction?)
- 30% spell haste for 20 seconds.
- Passive: 5% spell haste while not on cooldown

Dark Soul: Knowledge (Demonology?)
- +30 Mastery for 20 seconds
- Passive: +5 Mastery while not on cooldown

Dark Soul: Instability (Destruction?)
- +30% critical strike chance for 20 seconds
- Passive: +5% crit while not on cooldown