Palahniuk

I apologize for not reading everything more thoroughly and duplicate posting. I'm still confused why Leulier says that the two builds return roughly equivalent dps (mine was <5 dps difference between that build and 0/21/40)... less time spent life-tapping over the course of a ten minute fight?? I assume I must be overlooking something.

Thank you for your feedback, regardless.

 

Arelenda

It's been noted before. I'm not sure why that is. I'm guessing Leulier underestimates ISB (which is downright impossible to model in a spreadsheet).

Improved Life Tap is pretty nice in theory.

To give you an idea:

Destruction warlocks require 400 mana for a Shadowbolt, which they cast approximately every 2.5 seconds, so they use 1600 every 10s. After a minute (9600 mana), mana pool is empty, so further bolts need to be compensated with Life Tap per 4 bolts. That's without BOW or pots.

An estimate of 5 LTs per minute after the first is the very worst case scenario, I'd say. So in a 10 minute fight, it's 9x5=45, which would be reduced to 38ish with Imp LT, so you'd gain 10seconds of casting time in a ten minute fight (600s), under optimal conditions. That's the equivalent of 1.66% haste, roughly, or 25 haste rating. And it makes you require less healing.

Certainly a nice talent, but in no way should you go out of your way to pick it up.

 

deadaxe

I'm sorry if this question has been discussed before in this thread. Basically what I want to know is what is the general take on adding immolate into the sb spam for your standard 0/21/40 build. From what I can see immolate does more dps than shadowbolt, but from what I've gathered from countless top end guild warlocks, most of em don't do immolate at all.

Their explanation being to keep more ISB's up and at the same time "its more dps". This is what boogles me. So I'd like to hear more opinions on whether to use immo or not.

Survivability/self sustainability aside this is what im looking at:

With immo: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
W/o immo: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

rochan

You don't want immolate because:
-It will result in less ISB uptime (big raid dps loss)
-Likely more user error (a second button to press :P, and have to pay attention to Dot-timers)
-Have to pick up talents, which could be used on non-useless things (Nether Prot/Soul Leech)
-Takes a debuff slot
-Doesn't benefit from spell haste
-At high gear levels, SB is more Dmg/Casttime anyways

Only time i'll use immolate is on movement bosses; something like supremus if hes about to go OOR, or Shahraz if shes vuln. to fire and I'm not lazy/feel like pressing another button.

 

Arelenda

At early gear levels it might be worth it, but SB scales better with crit rating. and hit rating. and haste rating. and +damage. ShadowSeer can tell you if it's worth it for you, it includes dot damage and ISB.

I'm in BT with 0/21/40. I occasionally use it on bosses as my first spell, so I don't risk aggroing to an early crit, and Shadow Weaving/ISB are not up at that point. Other than that, I can only echo what Rochan says.

 

deadaxe

I dont exactly want to pick up nether prot as i MIGHT be tanking some stuffs here and there once in a while.

As for gear, tbh im really not too sure about taking haste rating because im not in US. I.e. i have a 400~500ping and even with a stopcasting macro i personally dont think i can take much advantage out of the 0.1sec faster casts when my reaction is taken into account :P. Might be interesting come 2.3 tho.

Gear wise I basically have 2 sets which i have yet to test out which does more dps but basically:

More crit = 1236shad dmg, maxed hit, 19.68% crit (w/devastation = 24.68%)
More dmg = 1311, maxed hit, 16.34% crit (w/ devastation = 18.34%)

Definitely dont feel like it is worth trading 80+- dmg for 3.x% crits. Anyways with my current gear is it worth it to cast immo? no?


PS: looking after a 2nd spell is in no way difficult :P ive been affliction for as long as i know so i have no problems keeping ONE dot up lol

 

Trickykid

With quartz, your reaction is relative to the predicted lag, which means you'd get just as much benefit as someone sitting in the server room.

Read the posts above yours The rhetoric here is you may see marginal DPS gains but by not throwing out your higher-crit bolts as often, you're lowering raid DPS.

And for me it wasn't that keeping a dot up was hard, it's that the biggest losses in casting time are the "between casts" periods. Shorter spells make that happen more.

EDIT: removed NP proc issues -- apparently it's a problem for Kael.

 

galzohar

That would only be kinda true if your latency was a fixed number 100% of the time. Since your latency changes you still lose cast time, which isn't directly dependant on your latency but on how much your latency changes.

 

Arelenda

NP does not work fine on Illhoof. When it procs, the imps will start firebolting a healer instead. Not that it matters that much on Illhoof.

It works fine for Leotheras. It does not proc on him, probably by design.

It does NOT work fine for Kael'thas, though, if you're tanking Capernian. Nether protection procs can get someone killed. Even if you're fast with clicking off the buff (or use the macro) it's one spell aimed at someone else.

 

Arelenda

Use ShadowSeer if you really want to find out the damage-per-casting-time.

 

rochan

Nether Protection doesn't work on Illidan either it was funny watching people get owned by shadowbolts and people screaming on vent that they pulled agro the first time we had a NP warlock tank.
I've read you can spam some sort of /cancelaura Nether Protection macro while tanking but I've not confirmed if this is reliable or not.

Either way, it's pretty stupid that it makes us unable to tank virtually all bosses Warlocks are supposed to tank.

 

Nas

I've tried using a /cancelaura NP line included in my Searing Pain macro and spamming it (didn't stopcast that for obvious reasons) - and no, it was not reliable at all when tanking Capernian, she still ran at me quite often and I had to resort to kiting her around which was very messy. Had to spec out of NP right after that go.

 

LCN

A long time lurker signing in for duty. o/

Anyway, on to the question. How is the healthstone crit % calculated? Is it the spell crit %, melee crit % or some random fixed number, like 15-20% or so? Now this may sound mad, but during the 2 years I've played this game with the 2 of my warlocks I've never really even thought about this.

 

Arelenda

Take a look at this Wow Web Stats

Sort by crit rate, and you get everyone that has high spell crit on top.

While not proven, I'd say spell crit % is far more likely than any other possible theory.

 

LCN

Well I guess this could be tested, but as I'm not at home right now. And I'm pretty sure someone has the hard facts about it anyway.

On one hand it doesnt make sense that spell crit % would effect it, seeing as (as far as I know) consuming a healthstone is not a spell effect, rather a consumable effect of some sorts. One guess I've heard was that it would be the spell crit %, but it'd be tallied in when the stone is created, not when it's consumed. That makes no sense at all tbh.

 

doogless

I'd guess consuming a Healthstone counts as a spell, since Healthstone crits can proc stuff like [Shiffar's Nexus-Horn]

 

Arelenda

There's no such thing as a consumable effect. It's all spells.

 

LCN

Or spell/skill?

 

Krathis

Purely anecdotal but I've noticed a lot more health stone crits using a demonology spec then I ever saw with affliction (4% more crit from DT). Generally I eat the health stones I create first (simply because they're the largest) so I can't say if it looks like the affliction locks 2080s crit less often or not.

Again this is purely anecdotal.

 

Crepe

The message in the combat log is "Your healthstone heals you for X" or "Your healthstone critically heals you for 2*X", so I suspect it's your spellcrit rate.

 

galzohar

Shouldn't they crit for 1.5X?

 

Furio

They do. Don't forget your Fel Armor buffs your healing received - including that received from Healthstones.

 

Arelenda

It's 1.5x.

 

galzohar

Even with buffs, your normal would be 120% and the crit is 1.5X of that 120%...

 

Bubonic

Some people have mentioned using fighting succubus with lash of pain on certain fights to gain best dps with demo build.

Doesnt lash of pain consume ISB uptime? And if it does is it really worth using?