Rozzenwyn

I would love to see an addition to the first post that would give some idea how much haste raiding you need on an item to justify giving up a point of damage. Before 2.4 came out Shadowseer was telling me that at my gear level (4 piece T5 and equivalent T5 level) that haste would actually benefit me more than anything else. I'm hit capped and 7/44/10 specced demo lock who uses felguard for raiding. I'm running at around 1570-1625 shadow damage when fully raid buffed (not including wrath of air totem or any other things that are not up the entire time. The 1600 numbers usually has another lock in the group with an imp stam buff which boosts me over the 1600 range. I'm low on crit (just under 20%) because everything I've seen with my spec (and shadowseer seemed to support) that damage was better for me and we already have 2 destro locks with crit % in the high 30's and mid 40's. I want to start stacking haste but I'm having issues evaluating an item and deciding if the amount of haste it has is worth the loss of spell damage that another similar item has.

So any discussion about the tradeoff numbers would be a huge help!

 

Flamingcloud

What are you talking about.. Flame caps and destruction potions don't share a cooldown, and super rejuv pots give less mana back then super mana pots.

 

Torq

Spreadsheet would tell you exact numbers, but remember:

I would say for you, given that your SB gets 20% less effect from your +dmg as a destro lock's does, that haste would be more heavily weighted in your favor.

But that's just off the top of my head, the spreadsheet can give you a much more definitive answer.

 

Ammanas

Basically, it comes down to if you are needing to Life Tap at all then a mana pot is always going to be better than a destruction potion. Even if you have a shadow priest, if you are having to life tap 4-5 times using a mana potion on CD to turn some of those GCDs spent tapping into Shadow Bolts is going to be more DPS. The spreadsheet backs this up, as even with a shadow priest/mana spring/JoW enabled I still get more DPS using mana potions.

I will use a destruction potion at the very beginning on Brutallus for the extra damage on my first CoD, but after that its mana pots all the way (you have to watch your threat burning one at the beginning).

 

Arelenda

[Super Rejuvenation Potion] vs [Super Mana Potion]

 

Flamingcloud

Proving my point? Anyways the main purpose of my post was to respond to the "Destro pots vs Flamecaps" question.

 

Rozzenwyn

Thanks, I'll give it a shot, I plugged in my stats and played with the immolate or no immolate options a bit and determined that I've been right in using immolate with my spec but didn't have any specific pieces of gear in mind at the time so didn't yet sit down and figure out how the gear upgrade area works. Didn't realize that it might be able to make these calculations for me.

Still would be nice to have a sorta guideline of 1 spell haste = ?? spell damage (and same thing for crit) so if the item has 35 spell damage and 20 spell haste vs an item with 45 spell damage I can decide whether or not it is an even trade off or an upgrade or a downgrade etc. more on the spot. I do study boss loot charts and such and try to figure out what items I think are upgrades for me ahead of times but sometimes one site will miss an item and not list it under the boss or something and it will drop and I have to try to make a decision on the spot as to whether I want it or not.

Maybe the worksheet will help me figure those numbers out myself. I'll give it a whirl. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. We are 3/5 MH and 4/9 BT so I am starting to have more access to haste gear. Plus I'm trying to decide on badge gear and whether or not I can swing getting some haste gems once the vendor is up on our server etc. In particular I'm having a really hard time figuring out if any of the badge robes are an upgrade for me. I'm still wearing Frozen Shadoweave Robe. If I went for the Spell Crit badge robe then I'm losing 22 shadow damage and gaining 50 crit and would need to socket with 8 hit gem to get back to hit cap. I don't know if that's an upgrade or not. With the Hit robe I'd again lose about 22 shadow damage but gain 21 hit putting me over the cap and making me able to regem quite a few slots. Problem is I'd want to put haste gems there but don't yet have enough badges to buy the robe and enough gems. We aren't regularly raiding SSC or TK anymore so Vashj Robes and T5 Robes aren't currently an option. I'd really like the ones off Archimonde but could be a little while yet before we get him down as we are splitting time in both instances.

Here's my armory if anyone wants to take a look and give me an opinion (with stats to back it up) on which robe would be an upgrade if either. The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Trickykid

I believe the question posed was Destro Pot + Healthstone v. Rejuv Pot + Flame cap.

The spreadsheet has this info on the DPS tab. It also has a list of all the items with their values based on your current stats. It'll give you better advice on gear choices than we can.

 

Rozzenwyn

Awesome I did not see this. I'll check it out when I get home. Thanks!

 

Krazen

I think his idea was to keep 1 of them available for an emergency health refill.

 

Krazen

What good does that do? Even if you can get a 4th pot in, right at the berserk, if you do your job right you'll be near the top of the aggro list and one of the first players to get flattened and unable to use that 4th pot anyway.

 

Rozzenwyn

Aha I have been using a different warlock spreadsheet. I thought i got it from here, hmm dunno where I got it from. Off to play with this one.

 

Ammanas

If I use a destro pot, I can use it the instant we pull (actually ~8-10 seconds before) and have my mana pot come up right at the end of the fight during that final burn where I'm usually bloodlusted and don't want to life tap if at all avoidable. If I wait until I spend the 3k mana I need to make sure I'm not wasting a mana pot, my CD won't be up until well into the enrage (which we never see anyway since we generally kill him with 5-10 seconds before enrage).

 

Elane

I know that according to the spreadsheet using mana pots is always better than using Destro pots, but what about when you're stacking cooldowns? I think the story behind the Mana potting is > Destro pots if you spend any time lifetapping, is just because the spreadsheet gives averages to potions. Whereas, Destro potting while hasted sounds like it'd up the benefit. I mean, a mana pot at the very maximum would give enough mana to circumvent less than 2 lifetaps.

Say you tap once or twice before one of these cooldown phases(Bloodlust for example) and have your trinkets ready along with a destro pot. Just thinking about it in my head seems like a better use of a pot cooldown.

Also, what about just destro potting with a Skull activation?

 

Ammanas

Destro pots don't scale as amazingly well with cooldowns as you might think, they only last 15 seconds and even with a BL and Skull plus some passive haste and drums realistically the most shadow bolts you are going to fit into that window is 9 (takes a 1.66 sec casting time). For a destro potion to be worth it, the extra +120 damage and 2% crit on those 9 shadow bolts is going to have to out-do the damage of one normal SB (assuming a mana pot only saves you one SB, which is a bit of a stretch).

My math is probably wrong here, but 120 damage when multiplied by the talented SB coefficient (105.75) is ~127. Multiply that by 43% for the damage multiplyers (13% maledicted CoS/15% Sacced Succy/10% SW/5% Misery) and I get ~182 extra damage per SB or ~1635 damage total assuming 9 SBs. Even if you assume 100% ISB for the period, its a 63% damage increase which ends up being ~2160 total net damage.

That extra 2% crit chance on 9 SBs is hard to model, but I don't see it making up for the damage differential between 2160 damage and an average SB hit (for me is around 4k on this fight).

Like I said, my math is probably not correct but I just don't see how any number of CDs can make those 15 seconds of 120 damage and 2% crit worth the extra SB or two you get from a mana pot. However, if you get Burn you can life tap without losing DPS while running to and from the Burn spot and a destro pot would almost certainly be better since you shouldn't have much of a mana issue with those "free" life taps.

 

Arelenda

I did some napkin math and found that if you stacked all cooldowns, you could come close to a mana pot's worth. Feel free to run some simulations and let us know how it turns out.

 

Flamingcloud

10.. maybe 11 Bolts is within the realm of possibility, and mana pot averages 2400 which is not one shadowbolt, but more like 0.7-0.8 shadowbolts

It isn't 43% its multiplicative it is 127*1.13*1.1*1.05*1.15*isb * t6* crit modifier(if you crit 30% and have the meta that 30% would be 1.327) which is 322 with 100% isb uptime, still nearly twice as much as what you calculated.. at 9 bolts thats 2900, plus 2% crit which should be worth around +40-50dmg so like 3880dmg.. so worse than a full bolt but maybe better than 0.7-0.8 of a bolt. Especially if you can get into 10-11 bolt range.

Plus on brutallus 2 mana pots, +dark runes, +good spriest, +judge/blessing, +tide/spring, + starting pool of 11-12k mana you won't need a 3rd mana pot.

 

Krazen

You'd have to have very low latency, perfect play, and amazing gear to get 10 casts in 15 seconds.

AFAIK, spellpower is locked at the end of cast, so a shadowbolt started with 1 second of the destro pot doesn't get the benefit.

 

Gumibear

Read the question I responded to. The person essentially asked whether to use the healthstone cooldown for emergencies and use Destruction potions or to use Flame Caps and use the potion timer for emergencies. Flame Caps + Super Rejuv pots would maximize DPS while providing an emergency heal.

 

Torq

Just a strange little finding I ran across, but need some confirmation on it.

I was looking up the [Blade of Wizardry] because I found it sitting in my bank, from one of those times where I had too much cash and not enough to spend it on (picked it up for 500g, incidentally). From what I've read, it has a 15% proc chance, with a 30% internal cooldown. However, this isn't in the spreadsheet, at least not weighting the proc worth anything (should be wroth x haste)

Compared to my current weapon ([Nathrezim Mindblade], lol I know... >_<), I lose 44 +dmg and 23 crit rating (~1%). However, given the 6-second length of the buff, I should be able to get 3 shadowbolts cast (or started) during the proc. I know some procs are immediately applied, and as such affect the very next spell, but I don't know if this is one of them. I intend to test it when I get home, but if anyone knows offhand, that'd help greatly.

As it stands, if it takes immediate effect, with my haste gear it creates ~2.04 sec SB casts (this isn't counting my shiny new shoulders). This enables me to get 3 bolts out during it's uptime, and gives me effectively exactly the haste it tells me it does.

With the best case scenario (procs every 30 seconds), this gives me an average of 6/30 * 280 haste rating, or 56 average haste rating, if I've done the math right. Given my gear setup, according to the spreadsheet, 1 haste is worth ~1.37 dmg, so this is effectively 73,98 +dmg. Incredibly enough, this makes up for the crit and damage lost switching from the Mindblade (at 44 + 23*1.23 = 72.29 +dmg)

To verify this, I used it on our first RoS kill last night, and pulled off an incredible (for me, anyway) 1800 dps, with sub-optimal group composition (ele shammy but no SP in group). On previous pulls, I had a hard time breaking 1700 dps (with similar aoe in all pulls). Granted, I got some massive crits in phase 2, so part of the dps increase is due to good rolls, but it was an overall dps increase.

However, I realized that there's a breakpoint to be hit. If you can push the SB cast time to just under 2 sec with the proc up (1.98 sec cast time requires 412 haste, or 132 w/o buff) you can effectively extend the effects of the proc to ~8 sec (effecting 4 bolts at ~2 sec) raising it's average haste rating to something closer to 8/30 * 280 haste, or ~74 haste rating, increasing it's worth by 18 haste rating.

So, what I need to do now, to confirm this, is verify some assumptions, as well as generate a more accurate model for it's proc/uptime etc:

• Does the proc apply to the very next SB (confirm/deny)
• Determine procrate = 15% and cooldown = 30 sec (confirm/deny/modify)
• Create a better model other than (proc length/cooldown * benefit) for the average - [E] model created, needs information from above to complete

I'm going to go scribble out some models on paper for a bit, then come back and edit this. Feel free to beat me to it/correct any assumptions I have made.

I'm not arguing that this is the "best in slot" item by any means, but it is worthwhile to see just how much this item is worth.

So, I generalized out the formulas I had on hand, and came up with this:

Effective +haste = (u / l) * v

Where:

v is the added value from the proc (280 in this case)
l is the effective cooldown (internal cooldown + expected time to proc)
u is uptime (total casting time under influence of proc's haste benefit)

l = (1/p * c) + icd
u = ceil(k/c') * c'

So, effective haste granted becomes:

h' = (ceil(k/c') * c') / (c/p + icd)) * v

Providing the following values:

• c0 = 2.5
• p = .15
• k = 6 sec
• v = 280
• c = c0 / (1 + (h / 1570)) -- hasted cast speed w/o proc
• c' = c0/ (1 + ((h + v) / 1570)) -- hasted cast speed w/ proc

Letting h be variable from 0-300 and solving for h' provided the following graph:



Note the inflection point at 113 haste. The effective haste granted by this weapon jumps from 36.9 haste to 49.2.

I also realized that these values were much lower than I had stated above, because I was forgetting to take the time to proc into account in determining the time between procs. Also, I concluded that my "dps increase" was a figment of my imagination, and I would have actually gotten more dps had I stuck with the Mindblade. Doh!

[E3] I realized this could also be used to model [Quagmirran's Eye] I'll see what it looks like a bit later

 

Archona

I feel like a complete noob posting here, but I wanted to ask members outside my local area (members of the warlock community)...

My class lead would like me to drop UA and instant HoT (cry..I loves Instant HoT) and pick up ruin....noting that not much has seemed to drop for me as an affliction lock in Hyjal or BT (so far)......Is the loss of UA and Instant HOT a good thing (outside of soloing, which I LOVE the HoT being instant for) for the raid? I really am having trouble dropping them without arguing about it...but I want to help the raid, not hobble it...

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm not wanting to do it without asking a large contingent of people who won't flame me for asking a stupid question, perhaps.

Thanks in advance.

 

DamnDirtyApe

archona, your question is answered on the bottom of page 94 and the top of page 95 of this thread, as well as the first post.

In summary, imp HoT is useless for raids and the points are better spent elsewhere, and you should use the spreadsheet posted on the first page to determine if ruin is more beneficial than UA for your gear.

 

Archona

Thanks....I tried to read thru the thread...so many responses..

I guess I get to respec all the time then

Thanks

 

Morwen

Perhaps we should have separate threads for theory vs. 'help me please' like the mage threads?

To address the broader question of 'should I spec a certain way', as long as the spec is not completely silly (you can tell when it is), just try it for a raid or two and use wws to evaluate your performance, adjusting for luck as needed. This is not an agonizing decision, it doesn't cost much to respec, and it's not going to make or break your raid's success in BT/Hyjal. You are playing a warlock, not a spec, so knowing first-hand how all of the specs work is a beneficial thing.

 

Anexus

Hi, i'm pretty new here. I just spent quite a lot of time reading through all of this and there is alot of useful information here. I'm a bit surprised about the use of CoR though. We have never really used it in raids. It has been mentioned a few times, but since nobody had any real facts we just sticked to CoS and CoE. Now if we swap CoE for CoR the mages are definitly going to start crying so I guess I need some hard data to back up such an action. I know it depends on raid setup and it's a matter of calculating the math. We usually have more than 2 locks and I personally dislike CoD due to the threat spike when it goes off. I have a few questions though. How much armor does a boss have? Or are there any chance of getting the armor down to 0? I've noticed some melee dps items have armor penetration and I bet the melee would hate it if their executioneer proccs turn out useless. I think I saw a link to some armor thing for bosses way back but I cant seem to find it again. Also, if it is a melee friendly fight, meaning they get to stay and dps more than having to run isnt there an issue with threat also? Since they cant go above 100% like casters. We dont really use rogues that often which leaves warriors, enh shammies, retri palas, ferals (which we sometimes use for offhealing in a few healing intensive situations if they dont have to tank, and running with less main healers) and hunters, which (except hunters) have very limited ways of dropping their aggro. Any thoughts or experience to share? I'll mention CoR for my rl/cl when i active my account again (temporarily closed due to school issues) and try spamming mana potions more often

I guess that question could fit into other categories or threads too. And a small totally unimportant question, but how do you grind shards as destro? I usually dont play my lock outside raids anymore and most of the time I just get them off trash. But like I learned the hard way, there is no trash to Archi. I guess just putting up a voidwalker and slowly killing the mobs is easiest? Mobs usually run out of range if fear them or I two shot them with an sb crit.