PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 11

Nas · 10/23/07, 9:10 AM

While on the subject of specs, I thought I would throw in the following hypothetical situation to see if any mathematically inclined members of the community would be interested in simulating it:

What if a 0/21/40 Destruction nuke build Warlock had both [Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows] and the 4-piece Tier 5 bonus [Hood of the Corruptor]. Would the Warlock notice a DPS boost by speccing 1/21/39 (A point out of SnF, and into Imp. Corruption) and incorporating Corruption into their 'rotation'?

Arelenda · 10/23/07, 9:11 AM

To summarize:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower is "locked in" at START of the cast.
Multipliers are "locked in" at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.

for dots and channeled spells: (Drain Life, Corruption, UA, etc)

Spellpower is "locked" in at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

I'm assuming crit bonuses (frost mages vs frozen targets) are also "locked in" at completion of cast, but am unable to test this.

(this information is WRONG, see below)

Arelenda · 10/23/07, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Nas

While on the subject of specs, I thought I would throw in the following hypothetical situation to see if any mathematically inclined members of the community would be interested in simulating it:

What if a 0/21/40 Destruction nuke build Warlock had both [Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows] and the 4-piece Tier 5 bonus [Hood of the Corruptor]. Would the Warlock notice a DPS boost by speccing 1/21/39 (A point out of SnF, and into Imp. Corruption) and incorporating Corruption into their 'rotation'?

I'll assume no internal cooldown.

Assuming you get your corruption to tic every 3s, it'll proc every 15s on average. That means it's up 1/3 of the time, roughly, so gives you 220/3=76 spellpower on average. That's about equal to the [Icon of the Silver Crescent], which has 43+155/6=70spellpower on average. So it's not a great upgrade.

Math for 1/21/39 vs 0/21/40:

Assuming 1300 spell power, 25% crit chance

You're losing 4% of your spellpower on each bolt, which is 2,67% less damage per bolt. (1300*1,06+575 vs 1300*1,02+575 or 1950 vs 1900)

You'll be casting roughly one corruption per 6 shadow bolts. Corruption is 2334 damage (900+1300*0,94 plus 10% set bonus)

The original rotation would get 6.6 shadow bolts off. In theory a bit more damage, but there are a few factors: lower range on corruption, no threat reduction, two additional debuff slots (assuming the T6 set bonus leaves a debuff), and no ISB. I'd say debatable.

Nas · 10/23/07, 10:13 AM

I imagined it would be a close call, yeah. I think I'll give it a shot and compare WWS's once I obtain the exalted BT trinket, while I do not anticipate earthshattering DPS gains, I am still curious about how it would pan out.

Byram · 10/23/07, 12:23 PM

After all the discussion I've read about how armor does not have diminishing returns in terms of the character's lifespan (though the % reduction does), I'm curious as to how CoR doesn't work in the opposite way (i.e.- each point of armor reduction has an equal effect to shortening the mob's lifespan, though, as has been calculated, the %reduction in armor is reduced with diminishing returns)?

Thanks

Krathis · 10/23/07, 12:33 PM

Something to note is the four piece tier five bonus is calculated before spell damage. On average it produced a gain of about six damage per tic per shadow bolt applied. Assuming a fully debuffed mob you may push that number as high as 9 or 10 or roughly a 3 dps gain on the last five tics of corruption. Granted it does keep stacking but still the numbers are less then impressive.

Assuming a non-optimal casting rotation of one shadow bolt applied every three seconds (due to lag, movement, or whatever... but mostly just because I don't feel up to breaking down anything more complicated at the moment) here's some numbers.

second tic +10 damage
third tic +20 damage
fourth tic +30 damage
fifth tic +40 damage
sixth tic +50 damage

150 extra damage over eighteen seconds or about eight more dps then without the set bonus. Even if we double that number to 16 to account for DS and ISB (and to give the option some leniency in it's favor) it doesn't make up for the 20 dps loss the 0/21/40 warlock has in Arlenda's example from moving that point out of S & F. Keep in mind too that Arlenda's numbers are calculated assuming no other debuffs on the mob, 1300 spell power 0/21/40 warlocks see closer to 3k point shadow bolts on average in a raid environment.

Unless your dps would go up by moving one point into corruption to begin with (which is very possible for 0/21/40 'locks with lower crit ratings) I wouldn't spec just for the tier five bonus.

The set bonus does not add a debuff but rather amps up the damage of your corruption (when you attempt to reapply a corruption before your amped one falls off you'll get a message much like with amplified curse of agony, 'a more powerful spell is already active'.)

Trickykid · 10/23/07, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

I'll assume no internal cooldown.

Assuming you get your corruption to tic every 3s, it'll proc every 15s on average. That means it's up 1/3 of the time, roughly, so gives you 220/3=76 spellpower on average.

Unless the buff stacks, the uptime is slightly lower than this due to 20% of the buffs removing 2 seconds of the previous buff.

Seconds of buff time per tick of corruption = (0.2*0.8*5+0.2*0.2*3)

So uptime = (0.2*0.8*5+0.2*0.2*3)/3 = 30.67%

This brings average spellpower to 67.47 which drops it lower than the Icon for single targets.

As pointed out in other threads, the benefit goes up if you're corrupting multiple targets.

Vlar · 10/23/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

You're correct if the raid is threat capped. If so, CoR increases the tank's threat gen in 2 ways. It ups his damage done by reduced armor, but also gives him more rage since he's taking more damage. However if the fight isn't threat-capped, that DPS increase shouldn't be counted.

That may be true, but not including mention of the increased threat production will be a limiting factor if a warlock is trying to inform the raid leader that CoR is beneficial. Since this is supposed to be informative to raiding warlocks, I do not see why all such information would not be included.

Trickykid · 10/23/07, 6:32 PM

I never said it shouldn't be included, I think it should as it's definitely another component of CoR usage. I was just noting the exceptions to considering it a flat "raid dps" increase.

Arelenda · 10/23/07, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

I never said it shouldn't be included, I think it should as it's definitely another component of CoR usage. I was just noting the exceptions to considering it a flat "raid dps" increase.

Included now.

• frmorrison · 10/23/07, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

Demonic Safrice with a Succubus will boost the damage by 15%. .

You misspelled Sacrifice.

To the 1/21/39 people that are using 4 Tier 5 and Ashtongue trinket, it is better dps on paper, but then you have more aggro, less range, and are more affected by spell pushback on Corruption, plus you will use more mana (370 mana in 2 seconds vs 399 mana in 2.5 seconds or 185 mana per second vs 159.6 mana per second), and imp SB will up less.

Not worth it unless you really want to use the Ashtongue trinket.

Trickykid · 10/23/07, 8:23 PM

In the stat section, I would include intellect as it converts directly to critical strike chance. I think a lot of locks are so stat-averse we forget that. With kings (and gnome racial) this can add a decent amount of weight to some items.

Soul · 10/23/07, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

To summarize:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower is "locked in" at START of the cast.
Multipliers are "locked in" at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.

for dots: (Corruption, UA, etc)

Spellpower is "locked" in at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

This doesn't seem right. Every indication I have seen is that the damage a nuke does is determined once the spell leaves your hands. Otherwise, it would be optimal to cast your biggest, baddest nuke when your Icon of the Silver Crescent is about to run out. The same thing applies to DoTs: the base damage from spellpower is only applied at the end of cast.

A good way to demonstrate this for nukes is to go to Dr. Boom and dump Searing Pain on him using the Icon of the Silver Crescent. How many spells benefit from the increased damage after the buff fades? It will almost always be zero (lag being a factor here). If spellpower locked in at the start of cast, then you would almost always get one cast benefiting from Spell Power after the buff fades (you start casting Searing Pain. Spell Power fades from you. Your Searing Pain hits Dr. Boom for xxx damage).

The only thing locked in at start of cast is spell haste modifiers... that's why putting a Curse of Tongues on someone midcast has no effect on when that spell finishes.

Arelenda · 10/24/07, 12:08 AM

Testing proves:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)
Spellpower AND Multiplier are measured at the COMPLETION of cast.

If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at completion of cast.

Examples:
- if ISB drops off after you cast a shadow bolt but before it has reached its target, you'll still get 20% bonus.
- if Immolate drops off while Incinerate is traveling, the extra damage will still be added.

for dots (Corruption, UA, etc)
Spellpower "locked in" at completion of cast.
Multiplier reevaluated per tic

for channeled spells: (Drain Life, Hellfire)
Spellpower is "locked" at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

I'm assuming crit bonuses (frost mages vs frozen targets) are also "locked in" at completion of cast, but am unable to test this.

Haste is always counted at the start of the cast.

(updated for 2.4)

Arelenda · 10/24/07, 6:20 AM

ShadowSeer updated to reflect this. It won't affect data much, though.