It really does depend on your overall stats and the raid buffs you're going to have - hence why the DPS spreadsheet came into existence.
Since the ratio on gems is 12 dmg to 10 haste, if the spreadsheet tells you that 1 haste is worth more than 1.2 damage you should gem quick lionseye, and less than 1.2 damage runed crimson spinel. If your gear is such that the next 1 haste is equivalent to 1.2 damage, this is a good ratio and you should keep it as close to that as possible by gemming Reckless Pyrestone.
In practice due to how often your stats can change, you should probably begin gemming reckless pyrestone when the ratio is in the range of 1.1 to 1.3.
Edit: I was also wondering how someone would go about finding the maths behind the various mechanics within the game. Would GMs be aware of such details (doubtfull), or are there set forums/emails for these sorts of questions (R&D perhaps) that usually yield satisfacroty answers?
Lots and lots of testing. I recall two paladins using grey swords on a ZG boss with a healer, producing hours of data on melee swings. Analysing those gave us a good idea of the difference that upping your weapon skill gave. This was back when weapon skill was using the old mechanic that made very little sense.
Alright, now that we've seen most of the SW loot table I guess we can start the debate about the absolute "optimal" gearset. This is assuming a 202 hit cap (no ele shaman or aura) and ignoring the Mu'ru trinket because there are still some questions to be answered about it. Here is what I came up with:
Suprisingly to me, from what I've found playing around with the spreadsheet the best option for the non-SW T6 piece is actually the helmet (I had thought it would be better to use the Illidan helm and T6 gloves). Really the main challenge is balancing everything around the hit cap.. originally I was using [Heart of the Pit] with more hit gems but the rage OH with more non-hit gems actually came up as the better route for me.
Obviously, the Mu'ru trinket will most likely take the HSH trinket spot. I'm also intrigued by the Mu'ru ring, but I was doing most of this spreadsheet testing for myself and I personally will have to use the ZA/Crafted ring because I got them enchanted and then dropped Enchanting for LW. I also didn't consider the engineering helm or the JC neck.
One surprising thing I noticed in doing all of this is that it seems the gap between personal DPS from Fire and Shadow stays about the same from full optimal Bt/Hyjal gear to full optimal SW gear.. I had assumed that one would scale better with gear than the other.
I'm sure I'm missing some things, and people will be able to improve upon this. I just wanted to share my preliminary findings.
Suprisingly to me, from what I've found playing around with the spreadsheet the best option for the non-SW T6 piece is actually the helmet (I had thought it would be better to use the Illidan helm and T6 gloves). Really the main challenge is balancing everything around the hit cap.. originally I was using [Heart of the Pit] with more hit gems but the rage OH with more non-hit gems actually came up as the better route for me.
I also found that keeping the T6 helm as your only non-SW T6 piece is the way to go. This is mainly because the token cloth dps helm turn in is kind of underwhelming with its lack of +hit. Unless Kil'jaeden drops a different helm keeping T6 is still better. The other SW upgrades you listed for non-SW T6 (shoulder, leggings, gloves, and chest) all yield significant dps increase over their T6 counterpart compared to the relatively minor one the Illidan helm has over T6 helm.
Alright, now that we've seen most of the SW loot table I guess we can start the debate about the absolute "optimal" gearset. This is assuming a 202 hit cap (no ele shaman or aura) and ignoring the Mu'ru trinket because there are still some questions to be answered about it. Here is what I came up with:
Suprisingly to me, from what I've found playing around with the spreadsheet the best option for the non-SW T6 piece is actually the helmet (I had thought it would be better to use the Illidan helm and T6 gloves). Really the main challenge is balancing everything around the hit cap.. originally I was using [Heart of the Pit] with more hit gems but the rage OH with more non-hit gems actually came up as the better route for me.
Obviously, the Mu'ru trinket will most likely take the HSH trinket spot. I'm also intrigued by the Mu'ru ring, but I was doing most of this spreadsheet testing for myself and I personally will have to use the ZA/Crafted ring because I got them enchanted and then dropped Enchanting for LW. I also didn't consider the engineering helm or the JC neck.
One surprising thing I noticed in doing all of this is that it seems the gap between personal DPS from Fire and Shadow stays about the same from full optimal Bt/Hyjal gear to full optimal SW gear.. I had assumed that one would scale better with gear than the other.
I'm sure I'm missing some things, and people will be able to improve upon this. I just wanted to share my preliminary findings.
Wouldnt 6 dmg 7 stam gem still be better then 5 haste 7 stam?
One surprising thing I noticed in doing all of this is that it seems the gap between personal DPS from Fire and Shadow stays about the same from full optimal Bt/Hyjal gear to full optimal SW gear.. I had assumed that one would scale better with gear than the other.
I thought so too, but looking at the TNS values, I see shadow scaling .01 dps more on +dmg, ~.10 for haste/crit. So, not very much difference.
EDIT: I plugged in the gear you listed, and, at the gear level, shadow outscales fire by .10 in dmg, and ~.30 for crit, .20 for Haste.
Additionally, Pendant of Sunfire + a few hit gems turned out better than Twins neck. Goggles are not worth losing a different SW pc to T6 from the helm.
Last edited by LockApologist : 05/08/08 at 1:47 AM.
Wouldnt 6 dmg 7 stam gem still be better then 5 haste 7 stam?
Putting a 6 damage 7 stamina gem in a red socket, assuming you'd normally want a 12 damage gem, is a loss of 6 damage. Putting a 5 haste 7 stamina gem in a yellow socket, assuming you'd normally use a 6 damage 5 haste gem, is a loss of 6 damage. The opportunity cost is the same with either gem, but shadowsong amethysts are higher demand than seaspray emeralds for most guilds.
Well it seems pretty clear to me that it will be the 3 new T6 + T6 shoulders (they have good hit).. There will definitely be a no spirit helm on kil'jaeden with stats similar to the elemental shaman helm. Also I found m'uru ring to be superior, and to just gem hit instead of using mana attuned/captured storms.
Quart GCD bar. Where is it? I enabled it and didn't change any of the default settings and I didn't see it anywhere. Can someone give me an idea of where on the screen it should show up? There was an option that said "bottom, top, free" that you could pick. The default was "bottom" so I left it at that. But didn't see it anywhere .
Quart GCD bar. Where is it? I enabled it and didn't change any of the default settings and I didn't see it anywhere. Can someone give me an idea of where on the screen it should show up? There was an option that said "bottom, top, free" that you could pick. The default was "bottom" so I left it at that. But didn't see it anywhere .
It should be below your Player casting bar. Also, might you have forgotten to set a spell as the GCD check? (Such as Sense Demon or Life Tap)
It should be below your Player casting bar. Also, might you have forgotten to set a spell as the GCD check? (Such as Sense Demon or Life Tap)
Yeah I wasn't sure if that needed to be filled in or not and if so what to fill it with. How do you decide what spell to put there? I am wanting to use this bar because I sometimes after casting an instant like a curse or instant corruption try to cast the next spell again too soon which then means that it slows me down and I end up casting it later than I should have. So would putting Corruption there work? Also there were slots for 2 spells, do I need to fill in both? Thanks I've only been using Quartz for latency tracking up until this point so any help in configuring this to do what I need would be appreciated.
You need to fill in a spell there because that's where the addon "watches" the GCD. I would recommend using Sense Demons or Track Fish, or a similar spell that can't be locked out and has no cooldown.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Putting a 6 damage 7 stamina gem in a red socket, assuming you'd normally want a 12 damage gem, is a loss of 6 damage. Putting a 5 haste 7 stamina gem in a yellow socket, assuming you'd normally use a 6 damage 5 haste gem, is a loss of 6 damage. The opportunity cost is the same with either gem, but shadowsong amethysts are higher demand than seaspray emeralds for most guilds.
He's obviously comparing glowing shadowsong amethysts to forceful seaspray emeralds for a blue socket. The answer again depends on the spreadsheet. If 1 haste >= 1.2 dmg for your stats then forceful seaspray emerald >= glowing shadowsong amethyst.
Alright, now that we've seen most of the SW loot table I guess we can start the debate about the absolute "optimal" gearset. This is assuming a 202 hit cap (no ele shaman or aura) and ignoring the Mu'ru trinket because there are still some questions to be answered about it. Here is what I came up with:
Suprisingly to me, from what I've found playing around with the spreadsheet the best option for the non-SW T6 piece is actually the helmet (I had thought it would be better to use the Illidan helm and T6 gloves). Really the main challenge is balancing everything around the hit cap.. originally I was using [Heart of the Pit] with more hit gems but the rage OH with more non-hit gems actually came up as the better route for me.
Obviously, the Mu'ru trinket will most likely take the HSH trinket spot. I'm also intrigued by the Mu'ru ring, but I was doing most of this spreadsheet testing for myself and I personally will have to use the ZA/Crafted ring because I got them enchanted and then dropped Enchanting for LW. I also didn't consider the engineering helm or the JC neck.
One surprising thing I noticed in doing all of this is that it seems the gap between personal DPS from Fire and Shadow stays about the same from full optimal Bt/Hyjal gear to full optimal SW gear.. I had assumed that one would scale better with gear than the other.
I'm sure I'm missing some things, and people will be able to improve upon this. I just wanted to share my preliminary findings.
My guild is about to down Illidan, and I was chatting with a mage in my guild about Zhar'doom. He was telling me that it would be better for a mage than a warlock, because haste would be better for a mage than a warlock. His reasoning was that since fireball has a 3.5 sec cast time and shadowbolt has a 2.5 sec cast time, there would be more time taken off the fireball cast than the shadowbolt cast.
I don't think his analysis is correct, but I'm not positive. I want to say that a 1% increase in haste will result in 1% more dps for the person, regardless of the cast time of their nuke spell. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm/explain? Thanks.
He's obviously comparing glowing shadowsong amethysts to forceful seaspray emeralds for a blue socket. The answer again depends on the spreadsheet. If 1 haste >= 1.2 dmg for your stats then forceful seaspray emerald >= glowing shadowsong amethyst.
1 haste is not gonna be >= 1.2 dmg in end game gear sets. So the only time you would be using seaspray emeralds is when you are socketing a blue in either a red or yellow socket because you don't have 2 blue sockets.
The only downside to this is that aside from our T6 items the rest of the gear is exactly what every mage also wants.
I think we can safely assume sunflare exists. I think we can also safely assume there is a helm as good or better than the ele shaman helm with no spirit out there. Clearly leaving us with the t6 shoulders. I repeat from before, the m'uru ring + hit gems is better than ring of captured storms/mana attuned.
21stam
14int
40dmg
31haste
22crit
20hit
vs ring of captured storms and 2 regular yellow socket gems
54dmg
29crit
19hit
10haste
so 21stam 14int(like 4 crit rating) 21haste 1hit vs 14dmg 7crit pretty clear which one is the winner.
The majority of these items are so rare(like brutallus pants 1/8 chance every week, with like 10 raiders needing it) that someone would need a monsterous dkp lead to get everything before wotlk.
Last edited by Flamingcloud : 05/08/08 at 1:48 PM.
No matter the casting time of your spell, if you chain cast it, then it gains a proportional increase in casts over time from haste. If you cast 10 shadowbolts in 25 seconds with 0% haste you will cast 11 with 10% haste. If you cast 7.14(ish) fireballs in 25 seconds with 0% haste you will cast 7.85(ish) with 10% haste.
Obviously some spells treat haste differently than other spells (dots, instant spells and such), but I'm pretty sure fireball and shadowbolt both treat haste in the normal way.
My guild is about to down Illidan, and I was chatting with a mage in my guild about Zhar'doom. He was telling me that it would be better for a mage than a warlock, because haste would be better for a mage than a warlock. His reasoning was that since fireball has a 3.5 sec cast time and shadowbolt has a 2.5 sec cast time, there would be more time taken off the fireball cast than the shadowbolt cast.
I don't think his analysis is correct, but I'm not positive. I want to say that a 1% increase in haste will result in 1% more dps for the person, regardless of the cast time of their nuke spell. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm/explain? Thanks.
You are the correct one. He gets more absolute timer per cast, but also has less casts, and they cancel out exactly. The person that gets the most benefit is the person doing the most damage to begin with: 1% of 2000 is 2 dps more than 1% of 1800.
Also, if his fireballs are 3.5 seconds he's doing something wrong. I assume that's a typo on the part of one of you.
He's obviously comparing glowing shadowsong amethysts to forceful seaspray emeralds for a blue socket. The answer again depends on the spreadsheet. If 1 haste >= 1.2 dmg for your stats then forceful seaspray emerald >= glowing shadowsong amethyst.
There are no blue sockets in the gear sets we're discussing. The choices are a purple gem in a red socket or a green gem in a yellow socket to activate the CSD, and in a case like that, neither gem choice is better than the other based on stat gains.
Originally Posted by rutheford
thanks for the info. as to the fireball cast time, i think thats what he said but i don't remember for sure. I don't know much about mages tbh.
Fireball is 3 seconds talented. He's trying to talk you out of a Zhar'doom or he's really bad with game mechanics. One can even argue Warlocks scale better with haste if the Mage in question has mana issues.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Putting a 6 damage 7 stamina gem in a red socket, assuming you'd normally want a 12 damage gem, is a loss of 6 damage. Putting a 5 haste 7 stamina gem in a yellow socket, assuming you'd normally use a 6 damage 5 haste gem, is a loss of 6 damage. The opportunity cost is the same with either gem, but shadowsong amethysts are higher demand than seaspray emeralds for most guilds.
Technically T6 Shoulders (which I believe will be in the final gear set) have a blue socket. So 1x glowing + 1x either. (unless the helm has a blue socket.. then it will be 2x glowing)
Last edited by Flamingcloud : 05/08/08 at 2:54 PM.
No matter the casting time of your spell, if you chain cast it, then it gains a proportional increase in casts over time from haste. If you cast 10 shadowbolts in 25 seconds with 0% haste you will cast 11 with 10% haste. If you cast 7.14(ish) fireballs in 25 seconds with 0% haste you will cast 7.85(ish) with 10% haste.
Obviously some spells treat haste differently than other spells (dots, instant spells and such), but I'm pretty sure fireball and shadowbolt both treat haste in the normal way.
You're correct, except for instant spells. They're 1.5s without haste and get sped up accordingly too. Unless you cap them to 1s, but given current haste available that's just not going to happen.
05/07/08, 5:38 AM
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