◊ Melbuframa

Conq shoulder tokens are a myth!

And yes the M'uru ring is definitely better, I had not seen it when i was playing with all this info.

 

Arnath

I don't really see how this would be an upgrade. Swapping out Mana Attuned Band for the M'uru ring, you're gaining 6 spell damage and 2 haste rating and trading 18 hit for 22 crit, which is a net downgrade. To make that 18 hit back up, you'd need to change 4 Reckless Pyrestones into Veiled Pyrestones, giving you an overall change of -18 haste, +2 hit (probably wasted due to hit cap), +22 crit, which again is a net loss of useful stats.

 

Ammanas

Well, like I said I would use the Mu'ru ring BUT I have the Mana Attuned Band and Loop of Forged Power already and they are both enchatned with +12 damage. I dropped enchanting for LW once I got both rings enchanted because the Mu'ru ring hadn't been discovered yet, so now I'm stuck with the other two. I didn't do the math, but I find it hard to believe that the Mu'ru ring is that much better to offset losing 12 damage from the enchant.

As far as using T6 shoulders, [Amice of the Convoker] is a pretty damned big upgrade over T6 shoulders. Unless, like some people are speculating, there is really an amazing cloth helmet off of KJ that hasn't been discovered yet I really don't see keeping T6 shoulders.

For Tyri's vs Sunfire, they truly seemed to be a wash.. I came up with a 1-2 DPS difference either way depending on how the rest of my gear was gemmed. I listed Sunfire just because as a crafted BoE item they will probably be a lot easier to get than the Tyri gloves which I think drop off of KJ?

I played around with [Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents] a decent bit, but in the end I couldn't find any way to make use of all 50 hit and have it be worth the loss of pure damage/haste from the Sunflare + OH combo. Perhaps with factoring in the Mu'ru ring or the [Pendant of Sunfire] the staff could become better, but like I said I am pretty commited to Tailoring/LW ATM and don't see myself having access to either of those items. Seeing as every other item in that picture with the Sunflare has come to exist I think we can say pretty safely that it does exist and it drops off of KJ.

 

Flamingcloud

Mana Attuned Band with 2 Reckless Pyrestone vs M'uru ring with 2 great lionseyes

Mana Attuned
5 Intellect
+8 haste
+6 dmg

M'uru ring
+21 Stamina
+22 Crit.
+2 Hit

Again.. it seems pretty obvious.

and I would bet 100g vs 1g that there is a no spirit helm somewhere... Also Amice of the Convoker is only like 10-15dps ahead of t6 shoulders when you are at the gear level(21hit is worth alot when you are over 3000dps)

 

weet

Just listen to flamingcloud/frmorrisson, they are correct. At this stage the thinking should go that every class/spec has a drop of each non-bracer/boots/belt that drops in sunwell at some point (as is observable) and there is no reason to think otherwise unless both KJ and M'uru's loot tables are fully explored and nothing appears.

I am glad that with the addition of more non-hit best in slot non-armor pieces (m'uru ring, presumed cape somewhere) the difference between a gearset with staff and sunflare will be quite minor unless you are gearing around an elemental shaman.

 

Sethrod

I agree. Warlocks should try to focus on the staff first and leave sunflare to the other casters first for optimal raid dps.
Also, in case KJ drops a warlock helm, the best old t6 to keep would be the gloves, since sunfire handwraps offer the smallest upgrade compared to the other slots.

Wearing amice of the convoker (2x reckless pyrestone) + t6 gloves (10 spellhit gem) over t6 shoulders (glowing shadowsong amethyst/reckless pyrestone) and sunfire gloves(2x reckless pyrestone) would net

+2 hit
+25 haste
-9 spelldamage
-9 crit
+8 stam
+3 int


If you need to socket a glowing shadowsong amethyst into amice of the convoker for the CSD, you would still net
20 haste and 2 hit for 9 crit and 9 damage, which is still the better choice.

However, if you get the sunmotes for sunfire handwraps for a lot less dkp than you'd need for the twins shoulders, you should probably go for them since the difference is only marginal

 

Kobal

Actually... once Sunflare has dropped Kil Jaeden is dead, and once Kil'Jaeden is dead you have beaten the Game (until WotLK comes along), so does it make any real difference who gets Sunflare?

 

Thanahtos

The optimal gear-set at the end of a raiding progression never really matters, it's more to say, "I had the best gear in the Burning Crusade that you could ever get."

 

Raithlin

And to enable us to kill the 'Frostboars' quicker in Northrend. Seriously though, good items from pre BC like Saphs and Nefs trinkets were still optimal well into the first round of dungeons in Outland. You can virtually guarantee that Sunflare will be in use for a very long time to come.

The Horror! The Horror!
Profile

 

• frmorrison

One could argue that the Saph shoulder enchants are better than Aldor/Scryr for most classes.

If you have a Sunflare, expect to keep it at least until the 2nd 25 man in Wrath, or likely the third 10 man (there are different raid size progression classes in Wrath).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

rochan

Sort of like [Kingsfall] vs [Malchazeen] ????
Or did they say they won't make items from the first 10 man as good as Karazhan vs Naxx?

 

Faldrath

They did say somewhere that the gear replacement rate in LK won't be as quick as it was in BC, mostly because there are no huge change in mechanics (like stamina, or new hit/crit ratings, etc.).

 

Flamingcloud

There is a problem with your logic. You are associating a hit gem with t6 gloves.. when that hit gem could be anywhere so the standard value of the gem socket (a reckless pyrestone) should be associated with it. Also the blue socket you get on the t6 shoulders would need to be done somewhere else if not here so you might as well also assume that it was a reckless pyrestone aswell.

So final stats of sunfire + t6 shoulders are
+78 Stamina
+52 Intellect
+12 Haste
+21 Hit
+50 Crit.
+143 Dmg

and final stats of amice + t6 gloves are

+93 Stamina
+55 Intellect
+40 haste
+13 Hit
+41 Crit
+127 Dmg


leaving us with a net difference of

9crit
8hit
14dmg

vs

15 stam
3 int (about 1 rating with kings)
28haste

So 14dmg 8crit 8hit vs 28haste. If you lets say gem 1 hit gem instead of a reckless somewhere in your gear the gap changes to 21dmg 8crit vs 23haste 2hit. I wish I saved my gear set to tell you what the TNS values were.. but if I remember correctly dmg was close to 1:1 with haste at that point(with the 54 haste trinket etc), which would leave the t6 shoulder combo being marginally better even if the t6 shoulder combo ended 201 hit to amice's hit right on 203[not sure where exactly it falls.. possible its 203 to 205 or something else altogether].

If someone wants to put the gear set together (with m'uru items and a helm the same as ele shaman) that would be helpful, but I am not gonna do it again atm.

Edit: Oh and in regard to mages.. They are lower dps than warlocks so them getting gear upgrades is pretty much always wrose because they are less useful individuals. For the same reason you should heroism the locks instead of the mages. Second class citizens don't get heroisms. Even warlocks can't get full benefit off the hit unless its end game and you have already dropped the hit off your robe/pants/helm/gloves/ring/(and maybe neck/bracers).. unless of course you don't have gul'dan then I suppose you could make use mid-sunwell.

 

Arelenda

It's not that easy to outdamage mages post 20%, when they're popping all their trinkets for that heroism/bloodlust combined with Molten Fury (+20% damage) and Icy Veins (+20% speed). Even if our overall damage potential is greater, mages get to string together more cooldowns/abilities in a short time than us. A good mage will time it so everything is ready for that final 20% push. It's not such a clear cut case as you make it to be.

 

Flamingcloud

Ya so you give them 1 heroism for the 20% etc. Just saying giving a warlock an upgrade will probably result in more overall raid dps than giving a mage an upgrade... since warlocks scale better with dmg, haste, crit, and hit.

 

Morwen

This is a theorycrafting forum, but come on, you can't be justifying treating mages as second-class and giving warlocks caster loot first in all cases, the difference is not that pronounced. Moreover there are plenty of times when a warlock is unable to dps and mages can (due to iceblock/blink).

 

Flamingcloud

That is not what I am arguing.. I am just saying pigeon holing warlocks into the staff and mages into Sunflare because that would benefit raid dps more is a bogus argument. In theory one could give warlocks all the upgrades first.. the only real problem with that is that it is usually better to spread the gear around because of two reasons.. A. If the person leaves the blow is softened. and B. Threat cap.

 

◊ manly

Wow. You could not be more wrong than that. You want to tell me that warlocks scale better than mages, fair game. I don't debate that. Which means implicitely that gear upgrades should go to warlocks first in an utopist world where you aim for pure best raid dps.

However, when it comes down to cooldowns, you're really off track. If you check warlocks with COD WWS parses and compare those numbers vs mage numbers, you need to realise that bloodlust does not impact your COD. This means, if you want to compare the net benefit gained from bloodlust you need to look at your dps number from WWS but without taking into account the stuff that isn't affected by bloodlust; ie: COD. Also, keep in mind that if you look at a fire mage WWS parse our fireball dot will dilute the shown dps thanks to the WWS dps formula. But in any case, the major point is the following. A properly played firemage will activate no less than the following during bloodlust:

-bloodlust (+30% haste)
-molten fury (+20% damage)
-icy veins (+20% haste / 20s (possibly can cast 2 depending on spec))
-drums of battle (+80 haste)
-skull of gul'dan (+175 haste / 20s)
-destruction potion (+120 dmg, +2% crit / 15s)
-flame cap (+80 dmg)
-hex shrunken head (+211 dmg / 20s)
-combustion (3 garanteed crits)

Using best-in-slots pre-sunwell gear that meant +1950~ dps just from cooldowns, due to their stacking nature (all except combustion really). Do you really think you can match, or come remotely close, to that dps output during bloodlust ?

 

Chir

Passing hero's to the mages is always a good idea <20% mark - as long as you have a good mage group set-up they will get a greater benefit by far.

Groucho Marx - "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana"

 

Flamingcloud

It has been shown that stacking cooldowns as opposed to spreading them out(in regards to haste cooldowns) is barely any different. So drums and guldan etc really don't have anything to do with heroism. Combustion has nothing to with heroism either(just with hex shruken/flamecap/destro pot).

The only real argument that really holds any weight(advantage over a warlock.. flame cap isn't making up the gap) here is molten fury. I obviously wasn't clear enough. I meant you shouldn't give them extra heroisms(ie outside of molten fury zone) outside of the shaman already in their group, I assume most guilds are raiding 4-6 shamans a raid lately. Also on a fight where heroism length is longer than the time to reduce to mob from 20-0% it might be better to give them none(though most mobs have more hp than that)

This is ofcourse assuming the mage is even within 20% of the warlock. Which is realistically not always going to be the case.(lets say on brutallus a warlock with infernal out if probably more than +20% over the mage)... I've looked at your WWS Wow Web Stats it is no wonder you are leading the mage rallying call you have 1650 and 1930dps desto locks(no 2x burn does not excuse damage this low unless your burn spot is extremely unorthodox and mega far away)

Here is my guilds last wws.. Wow Web Stats I think this is probably a more typical warlock/mage dps setup. (with no weirdness 2500dps mage and 1650 dps lock).. though our mages usually perform better than this(1900ish usually.. no elements this raid).

 

Morwen

There are a lot of things wrong with that argument including some random ad hominem statements. A parse without Curse of Elements and without giving the fire mage bloodlust/heroism is in no ways typical.

We could argue this a long time but it's going to come down to the people in your specific raid. Perhaps your synergy distribution works for you, and that's great; some other raids do not see this vast discrepancy between mage/warlock direct damage and would have no problem with a different distribution. The statement that it is uniformly suboptimal to buff mages over warlocks is what people are taking issue with.

 

◊ manly

No, it hasn't. I follow this thread a bit since I have a warlock alt. All that has been shown is that warlocks don't benefit much from stacking haste cooldowns. Mages work differently.

Bloodlust multiplies the effect of:
-drums of battle (+5%, ignoring here diminishing returns for simplicitys sake)
-skull of gul'dan (+11.15%, ignoring here diminishing returns for simplicitys sake)
-molten fury (+20% dmg)
-icy veins (+20% haste)

as well as allows more spells to fit within +dmg cooldowns, namely
-hex shrunken head (+211 dmg)
-destruction potion (+120dmg, +2% crit)
-flame cap (+80dmg)

In other words, considering only the first set of cooldowns, I get an additional
-drums 5% * 0.30
-skull 11.15% * 0.30
-molten fury 20% * 0.30
-icy veins 20% * 0.30
(and of course, also applies to hex shrunken head, destruction potion, flame cap)

The gain is multiplicative for mages. I gain 30% more dps over all the currently activated cooldowns. The very definition of multiplicative.
First, our warlocks have low dps because of group comp. I do not try and compare my own dps to our warlocks because I know they are getting screwed hard due to lack of shaman/spriest. I am well aware of the average mage and warlock dps. However, here is something you possibly might not know. The way WWS calculates dps is quite simple. They divide a fight in 5s time slices. If a player deals any damage during that 5s time slice, that player gains 5s of dps_time. Your WWS dps = total_damage / dps_time. This looks all fine and dandy until you realise that the fireball dot keeps my dps_time longer than I really am nuking. In other words, the fireball dot dilutes my dps due to the way the WWS formula works. The end result of this is that mage dps tends to be slightly below the real value (firemage dps that is, doesn't apply to arcane). If you want a real value of a class dps in order to compare it with another class, then you compare the average dps rather than dps because that totally ignores such calculation snafu. Average dps = total_damage / encounter_duration. This is an extra column that is accessible in WWS if you check the 'columns' button on the top right corner of the parse.

If you would check, you will notice that fire mage dps increases once you check the average dps (hey, no more dilution penalty), whereas warlock dps decreases. If you believe I am somewhat trying to leave you astray with gibberish, you might want to have a look at wwsscoreboard site, which uses exclusively the average_dps column precisely due to the reason I outlined above.

In any case, you will not be able to prove that unstacking cooldowns is the same as stacking them for a fire mage. This is the ultimate benefit of giving bloodlust to mages. And technically, while I am on the subject, bloodlust should be given to whatever group gains the most dps from it rather than whichever group has the most dps. Simple demonstration: gain from bloodlust (figurative numbers)

warlock dps 2300 -> 2400
mage dps 2200 -> 2350

giving bloodlust to mages is more beneficial.

 

Arelenda

I concur. The sane things have already been said. I'd rather not waste space on this already way too big thread on a personal feud. I couldn't help but respond to "mages don't deserve heroism/BL" because that was most definitely untrue, in addition to being disrespectful.

Stacking multiple haste things doesn't matter that much over spreading them out, that much is true. But the key point was that mages can combine all +damage consumables/trinkets with multiple haste sources and the +20% damage from fury, thus making maximum use from all +damage effects. update: this is exactly as the previous poster points out, we had a concurrent post.


Here's the bottom line:
Q: who benefits more from heroism/BL, mages or warlocks?
A: it depends. In most fights, with a single BL/HR at 20%, fire mages benefit most in theory. It'll come down to player skill/latency/gear/consumables/group&raid setup/fight mechanics.


That's what I get from the WWS's. If anyone disagrees, that's fine, but you'll have to show some good evidence to convince me. A single WWS where one class beats the other proves nothing. A detailed simulation would be needed.

Let's please keep this thread constructive. It is long enough and contains quite a bit of useless and outdated information as it is.

What do people think, should I try and make a new thread? I'd probably have to go through this one and link back to the useful information buried in this one.

 

Flamingcloud

Bleh the point i was trying to make was on dps during normal times (100-20% no hero), lock 2300 mage 1800 is probably more normal than the wws of the mage's guild(thus 2300*1.3 > 1800*1.2*1.3) and obviously will almost always tilt in lock favor during non < 20% heroism times(which was my point in the first place though I made it poorly). I am not sure how much value to give out of icy veins/combustion increasing the value of poping cap/hex/destro.. It is a non-trivial amount, but it is not really percentage based(of your overall damage).

A new thread would probably be good but I really don't want to discuss fire lock vs shadow lock again. =P

 

Smurrf

I'll go out on a limb here and say 'yes'. I believe this thread is long enough that it is quite simply daunting to a new reader...and as you said, a good portion of this is outdated. If you have the time and energy, a nice Q & A style to either the first post or the second might help a lot as well.