Leulier's spreadsheet actually accounts for spell misses on DoTs relatively well. The spell is modeled as doing the same amount of damage with a higher cast time, as opposed to nukes which are modeled as doing less damage with the same cast time. And, of course, the higher cast time takes away from shadowbolts.
This is another way to approach it. With a 17% miss rate, the average duration of Corruption ends up being about 0.3s longer than a 1% miss rate. This is about a 1.5% drop in overall dps, which is what lead me down the path of questioning the value of spell hit. This is essentially the same as what I was talking about in terms of the "isolated" example of simply refreshing Corruption.
While obviously the isolated example isn't remotely realistic from a raiding standpoint, it keys us in to the fact that DoT and DD spells react very differently to spell hit.
Side note: If you are actually chain-casting DoT (let's say you're fighting 12 mobs at once), DoT and DD will react precisely the same to spell hit.
I'm not sure if it affects the DoT-gap, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't model staggered-DoT gap as a result of making other DoTs late to refresh.
I obviously played a bit fast & loose with the math to avoid the complexities of trying to map out an entire fight's worth spell sequencing including variations in miss rate, so I can hardly criticize. The examination I presented was more in the form of a question - "Doesn't it seem likely that the conventional wisdom on spell hit vs. damage for DoT/DD interleaving is potentially incorrect?".
In general, we've found that spell hit is still better than spell damage until you hit the supression cap, and then damage very slightly beats out hit for the remaining 10%. Looking over your analysis, I think the thing that's wrong is that you're only looking at the effect of missing a UA on the rest of the cycle. "our loss from Shadow Bolts only constitutes a mere 0.8% of overall dps" is clearly wrong--a 6% DPS loss on ~50% of our damage is a 3% DPS drop, about four times higher than you treat it as.
Looking over it again, I wasn't very clear. The "0.8%" figure refers to the 1.5s worth of casting time lost to Shadow Bolts, not the resist rate of the Shadow Bolts themselves. I then gloss over the total loss of dps when I bring up the comparison of how much bonus damage the player could have gotten instead if they could transfer spell hit -> spell damage at the rate of rare gems.
Obviously the fuzziness of the math involved precludes the degree of accuracy the numbers would indicate - but it still gives me the inkling that "spell hit > spell damage" is far less absolute than conventional wisdom dictates.
My suspicion is that this question would be most easily answered by running models that made spell selections based on resist rates and averaging out the performance across the various possibilities. My hope was that someone else actually did this so I wouldn't have to.
My suspicion is that this question would be most easily answered by running models that made spell selections based on resist rates and averaging out the performance across the various possibilities. My hope was that someone else actually did this so I wouldn't have to.
While you do have a point, your assumptions and math are very wrong.
First of all: on trash mobs, you're capped at very low hit chance, and any extra hit is wasted. There is no point in debating hit vs damage in that scenario: damage wins.
Saying "when corruption is resisted I just refresh it" and then saying "see, I don't lose much damage on _corruption_ with 0% spell hit overall" is not proving a lot. Your damage from dots will be around the same with 16% or 0% +hit, it's the Shadow Bolt damage that will plummet.
You're also chain casting CoA which no sane warlock will ever do in a real raid on a boss.
In response to Honga as well: the line "spell hit > spellpower > spell haste&crit" are a rough guideline meant for beginners. They're not a religious mantra, they can be wrong in certain scenarios. If the spreadsheet tells you otherwise, then the sheet is probably right. It is mentioned in the compendium: as you gain more of one stat, the other stats will start paying off more.
I suspect spell haste is actually really good for an affliction warlock too, now. The guideline was written prior to 2.4. I suspect haste is quite good affliction now but I haven't bothered to check it myself, I haven't played affliction in a very long time. Feel free to punch in the numbers and correct me.
The effect of haste on an Affliction Warlock goes through several plateaus. Basically, every time you reach enough haste to throw an additional Shadow Bolt into your rotation, the value drops suddenly.
This is a result of the differences in damage potential between your DoTs and Shadow Bolt. Expressed solely in terms of Damage Coefficient scaling (which isn't enough for actual situations, but is enough to show a trend), Curse of Doom has a Spell Damage Coefficient per Seconds Base Cast Time (hereafter CpS) of 200% (2.0) / 1.5s (base GCD), or 1.33. Corruption's talented CpS is 129.6% (1.296) / 1.5s, or 0.86. Siphon Life's CpS is 100% (1.0) / 1.5s, or 0.67. Immolate's CpS is 20% + 13%*5 (0.2 + 0.65 = 0.85) / 1.5s, or 0.57. Finally, Shadow Bolt is 85.71% (0.86) / 2.5s, or 0.34.
In an ideal situation, with no haste, over the course of 1 minute an Affliction Warlock will cast 1 Curse of Doom, 2 Siphon Lifes, 2.5 Corruptions, and 4 Immolates (for a total base cast time of 14.25 seconds) Due to the fact that Spell Haste has no effect on the speed at which a DoT ticks, this is the number of DoTs which will be cast regardless of the Affliction Warlock's Spell Haste.
At 0% Spell Haste, the remaining 45.75 seconds are spent casting 18.3 Shadow Bolts. In this scenario, the DPS Cycle has a CpS of (1*2.0 + 2*1.0 + 2.5*1.296 + 4*0.85 + 18.3*0.8571) / (1*1.5 + 2*1.5 + 2.5*1.5 + 4*1.5 + 18.3*2.5), or 26.33 / 60 = a CpS of 0.4388.
At 20% Spell Haste, the cast time for DoTs goes to 14.25 * 1 / (1+0.2), or 11.875 seconds. This means there are 48.125 seconds to cast the now 2.083s Shadow Bolts, so a total of 23.1 Shadow Bolts will be cast. This DPS Cycle will have a CpS of (1*2.0 + 2*1.0 + 2.5*1.296 + 4*0.85 + 23.1*0.8571) / (1*1.5 + 2*1.5 + 2.5*1.5 + 4*1.5 + 23.1*2.5), or 30.44 / 72 = a CpS of 0.4228.
In this example, the falloff in scalability due to the use of DoTs is |0.4388 - 0.4228| / 0.4388, or 3.64%. In comparison, a SB spammer would see no such drop, as the ratios between spell casts remain the same regardless of how much haste he has.
So, the end result is that:
Haste IS good for Affliction Warlocks. (Approximately 96% of the expected gain is (theoretically) seen.)
Haste is better for Destruction Warlocks.
EDIT: Removed (incorrect) references to Amplify Curse boosting Curse of Doom's Spell Damage Coefficient.
This is a result of the differences in damage potential between your DoTs and Shadow Bolt. Expressed solely in terms of Damage Coefficient scaling (which isn't enough for actual situations, but is enough to show a trend), Curse of Doom has a Spell Damage Coefficient per Seconds Base Cast Time (hereafter CpS) of 200% (2.0) / 1.5s (base GCD), or 1.33. (Curse of Doom will be amplified to 300% [3.0] every 3rd cast, for a CpS of 2.0, which averages its CpS over a long fight to 1.56).
Thanks for the info, I'm afraid I'll have to correct you there
Amplify curse only affects the base amount, not the spellpower part. If you have 1500 spellpower, it hits for 4200+2*1500. If you amp it, it hits for 4200*1.5+2*1500.
So, the end result is that:
Haste IS good for Affliction Warlocks. (Approximately 96% of the expected gain is (theoretically) seen.)
Haste is better for Destruction Warlocks.
Interesting. How does it compare to spellpower at high gear levels?
Sorry to create a new topic out of the blue, but I need assistance. Currently I am at ~1650 spell dam buffed and I was seeking to increase that. But as I was entering my values into the spreadsheet I was told that crit has a much higher gain in terms of dps than damage, whereas the information presented on page 1 of this topic goes against this. If anyone would help me with this it would be much appreciated
My spec is 6/44/11.
Thanks,
Hongaa.
I am close to your spec (7/44/10) and my shadow damage fully buffed comes in just a tiny bit less than yours (more like 1625ish). I did not find crit very helpful at all in my spreadsheet. I would agree with the other poster that said you may have some of your settings off. I would use the RAID setting for ISB and fill in the other shadow users in your raid to the best of your ability (I had to do some guestimates myeslf) to get a more reasonable worksheet. What I discovered was that anytime I gemmed for crit or chose a crit item over extra damage or even haste my dps went down instead of up. When gemming, a 12 damage gem always won out over any other Except in the rare instance where the socket bonus was +4 damage or more and the socket was yellow. Then a +10 spell haste gem was slightly more dps than the straight 12 damage because I got that 10 haste and the 4 damage from the socket bonus. If the socket bonus was only +2 damage then +12 damage gem still was slightly more than the +10 haste. I think you are doing right with stacking damage because its about the only thing we have that scales to our pets.
Through my own calculations, Spell Haste will always be balanced against Spell Damage to obtain optimal DPS. The equivalence point is where 10 Spell Haste provides the same boost to DPS as 12 Spell Damage, as on either side you can choose gems and gear to boost one over the other. In my experience, Spell Haste and Spell Damage are the only two stats worth gemming for, with Spell Crit being only 2/3 as good as Spell Haste (usually), and Spell Hit being found in abundance on any number of pieces.
Through my own calculations, Spell Haste will always be balanced against Spell Damage to obtain optimal DPS. The equivalence point is where 10 Spell Haste provides the same boost to DPS as 12 Spell Damage, as on either side you can choose gems and gear to boost one over the other. In my experience, Spell Haste and Spell Damage are the only two stats worth gemming for, with Spell Crit being only 2/3 as good as Spell Haste (usually), and Spell Hit being found in abundance on any number of pieces.
There are plenty of circumstances worth gemming hit. For example, despite the fact the the spreadsheet has fused nethergon ring high, you will always get better dps by just gemming the hit(and using exalted or ancient knowledge). Not to mention there is not enough hit gear in sunwell to max hit unless you have the staff. Also it is often worth it to get a badge item and gem abit of hit instead of using t6. Realistically in good gear 10 haste will never be worth using, once you go below 1 haste > 1.2 dmg you probably won't be coming back as all upgrades have haste. Red - Crimson Spinel, Yellow - Reckless Pyrestone, is clearly the only long term socketing method in sunwell. (Short term 10haste might be better depending on how much haste gear you have from pre-sunwell)
The general consenus on this forum seems to be that locks should either be the affliction bitch or 21/40 destro (leaving the fire vs shadow debate out of this). But i still see people playing with felguard specc. My question is how viable is this when you loose the t5 2setbonus. Personally i dropped felguard because I got sick of asking for buffs and it despawned in TK on High Astromaner Solarian when I got the wrath. I dont think the spreadsheet handles pet dps correctly yet, unless it has been updated last time i saw it. And it doesnt show the dps loss due to pet dying. I'm not asking for myself, but as my guild is starting on Illidan now it seems reasonable to keep a warlock with SL and master demonologist talents for the tanking. To be clear I'm asking for a BT/MH progression guild.
And a bit off the side. What boots enchants do people prefer? I am considering using Boar's Speed if the najentus boots will ever drop again.
I found that SL doesn't really make Illidan tanking that much easier. A single holy priest can keep me alive through everything Illidan does, and SL just makes healers split attention.
I loved raiding as Felguard spec but it was quite difficult to raid with it once I had 4 piece tier 6, and I never had a Void Star Talisman to help its survivability on some fights. Raid damage gets very intense in Sunwell, and keeping the Felguard alive will become increasingly difficult. The spec works in the right environment, but that environment is SSC/TK and early BT/Hyjal.
As for boot enchants, I always go with Boar's Speed. When you have to move, moving to your new spot faster increases your damage. No other boot enchant will really increase your ability to do damage significantly.
I found that SL doesn't really make Illidan tanking that much easier. A single holy priest can keep me alive through everything Illidan does, and SL just makes healers split attention.
I was also considering the 70 shadow resist from the felhunter. Bosskillers says 250 shaow resistance is needed for tanking, but doesnt say if it's buffed or not. Having that 70 resist + 10 from racial (undead lock i'm referring to) might allow you to wear more dps gear so you can do something a bit useful in the other phases too. But it just a thought. Havent really got any math on what's the best specc for dps in resistance gear. We'll probably figure it out in the end. I'd hate to give up on nether protection though. So I hope somebody else signs up for the job.
edit: i'm hoping wotlk will add some talent ala 2pt5 bonsu to make pet raiding more viable without being bound to specific gear
250 buffed is fine. Illidan doesn't have a stacking debuff like Leotheras does, therefore the higher resistance isn't needed. You don't need demo for Leo, Illidan or Capernian, we've had them all tanked by affliction and destruction locks.
I raid as a destro warlock, and I asked myself if Timbal's Focusing Crystal is the right choice. Most of the time I have to do CoE/CoS, sometimes CoD/CoA. I never cast Corruption or Immolate. So there are only a few Dot-Ticks possible, sometimes there are none. I also have the blue Vengeance of the Illidari Trinket... what should I use?
Quagmirran's eye and the Crusade card are much better than Timbal's for destruction.
As for illidan shadow res tanking, why not make your imp bitch do it - everyone will have shadow res at this point so theres no farming needed. I think 250 resistance unbuffed sounds about right, we've found our shadow res tank still does very good damage on the shadow demons when they spawn and I don't think I've ever wiped due to warlock tank dying on a demon phase.
As for illidan shadow res tanking, why not make your imp bitch do it - everyone will have shadow res at this point so theres no farming needed. I think 250 resistance unbuffed sounds about right, we've found our shadow res tank still does very good damage on the shadow demons when they spawn and I don't think I've ever wiped due to warlock tank dying on a demon phase.
I dont think we have an imp bitch at the moment. Though I'm not sure since I havent been online for over a month (school stuff). The reason I'm asking is that we already have a demonology warlock, which is doing very good damage. Which is why I asked about its viability earlier. At the moment he still has 2 parts t5, but that is going to change. But if its doable with any specc I guess it should not be a problem.
I raid as a destro warlock, and I asked myself if Timbal's Focusing Crystal is the right choice. Most of the time I have to do CoE/CoS, sometimes CoD/CoA. I never cast Corruption or Immolate. So there are only a few Dot-Ticks possible, sometimes there are none. I also have the blue Vengeance of the Illidari Trinket... what should I use?
I could also try to get the Darkmoon Card Set - is that an option to increase my overall DPS?
Best way to tell is check the spreadsheet. I'm going to say that without putting up corruption or immolate you are likely not to see a good return from Timbal's. I'd probably go with Darkmoon Card set over the blue trinket but the spreadsheet will help you make that decision more easily. The only way Timbal's would be better than the blue one is if the sheer stable spell damage boost it gives (ignoring the proc) gives you more dps than the crit from the blue one plus its use being used every time its up. Timbal's is definitely not meant for a destruction lock who casts no DoTs.
I dont think we have an imp bitch at the moment. Though I'm not sure since I havent been online for over a month (school stuff). The reason I'm asking is that we already have a demonology warlock, which is doing very good damage. Which is why I asked about its viability earlier. At the moment he still has 2 parts t5, but that is going to change. But if its doable with any specc I guess it should not be a problem.
Yes i think the demo lock would be the best option because i assume the use of felguard during the encounter is not really desirable at least when learning the fight - phase 1 and 3 he's leaving behind flame crash, blaze's in phase 2 and phase 4 he has a damage aura in melee range and as far as i know the pet causes splash damage as well.
Ok I have a question about affliction, I read the main post and I scaned through a few pages but didnt manage to find my answer, and instead of reading all 120 pages I figured I'd ask.
My question is this. Is there a spell damage cap for affliction, Where is the point where its pointless to get any more Spell damage. I'm sitting at around 1400 shadow damage raid buffed and I'd just like to know if I should convert some of the spell damage to crit.
Just to say before someone flames me on my spell hit, I finally broke down and bought the badge wand because nothing drops, so I lost a little hit, I was at 80 before.
Ok I have a question about affliction, I read the main post and I scaned through a few pages but didnt manage to find my answer, and instead of reading all 120 pages I figured I'd ask.
My question is this. Is there a spell damage cap for affliction, Where is the point where its pointless to get any more Spell damage. I'm sitting at around 1400 shadow damage raid buffed and I'd just like to know if I should convert some of the spell damage to crit.
Just to say before someone flames me on my spell hit, I finally broke down and bought the badge wand because nothing drops, so I lost a little hit, I was at 80 before.
Ok I have a question about affliction, I read the main post and I scaned through a few pages but didnt manage to find my answer, and instead of reading all 120 pages I figured I'd ask.
My question is this. Is there a spell damage cap for affliction, Where is the point where its pointless to get any more Spell damage. I'm sitting at around 1400 shadow damage raid buffed and I'd just like to know if I should convert some of the spell damage to crit.
Just to say before someone flames me on my spell hit, I finally broke down and bought the badge wand because nothing drops, so I lost a little hit, I was at 80 before.
You probably could do with a bit of hit and haste, then. Check the sheet to be sure.
You probably could do with a bit of hit and haste, then. Check the sheet to be sure.
Well there are of course other ways of increasing DPS, but unless I see complete proof of spell haste being as good/better than spell damage for affliction, spell damage will always win out.
First post here on EJ. First of all, wanna say thanks for the very informative and helpful post!
I will be rolling a new Warlock on a PvP server soon. I mostly run instances, but rolling on PvP to join a friend of mine. I came up with this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I know it's not a real typical build, but it's what I want to do.
I use an in-game addon similar to Pawn and I was hoping you could give me some stat weight values for a build like mine. Some good starting values, and I could tweak them as I play. I seen that you provide some rough values, but I'm trying to find more specific ones. Here is what I'm thinking order of importance might be for an affliction lock with no destruction talents:
Spell Hit <Till capped>
Spell Damage
Shadow Damage <Slightly lower than spell damage>
Spell Haste
Stamina <Upped the value of this a little for added survivability on PvP server, maybe even put ahead of Haste?)
Spell Crit
Intellect
Any thoughts on what might be good weight values for these stats given a build like mine? Using Shadow Damage at a mark of 1.00, and basing the other values around that would be helpful.
First post here on EJ. First of all, wanna say thanks for the very informative and helpful post!
I will be rolling a new Warlock on a PvP server soon. I mostly run instances, but rolling on PvP to join a friend of mine. I came up with this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I know it's not a real typical build, but it's what I want to do.
I use an in-game addon similar to Pawn and I was hoping you could give me some stat weight values for a build like mine. Some good starting values, and I could tweak them as I play. I seen that you provide some rough values, but I'm trying to find more specific ones. Here is what I'm thinking order of importance might be for an affliction lock with no destruction talents:
Spell Hit <Till capped>
Spell Damage
Shadow Damage <Slightly lower than spell damage>
Spell Haste
Stamina <Upped the value of this a little for added survivability on PvP server, maybe even put ahead of Haste?)
Spell Crit
Intellect
Any thoughts on what might be good weight values for these stats given a build like mine? Using Shadow Damage at a mark of 1.00, and basing the other values around that would be helpful.
I'd roughly equate spell haste / hit / spellpower, and put crit on one fourth of that. pvp is mostly about resilience.
For anything more detailed you'll have to download the spreadsheet, fill in your values, and see how it goes.
Has anyone done the maths for the new SP drops and which T6 item to keep yet?
Anyhing but the chest I would calculate over the thumb, but I´m not sure on shoulders/head with the obscene lack of hit currently.
Has anyone done the maths for the new SP drops and which T6 item to keep yet?
Anyhing but the chest I would calculate over the thumb, but I´m not sure on shoulders/head with the obscene lack of hit currently.
I have the KJ helmet as ~30 dps upgrade over the t6 hat, and [Amice of the Convoker] a ~24 dps upgrade over t6 shoulders. The 21 hit on the mantle of the malefic works in its favor.
The t6 chest, legs, and gloves are all clearly outclassed.
05/18/08, 5:31 PM
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