Elitist Jerks PVE Raiding Compendium

03/13/08, 12:04 PM   #1876
Arelenda
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by zanaris I think you missunderstood me, haste will be a dps increase, but at what level? The link i provided stated it would be an increase in dps at around 1400 spell dmg, but that value is sure to change in 2.4 with the GCD change. However an interesting note that the link claims is that haste is almost 10% (I believe the actual value is 9.4%) more expensive than +dmg in terms of gear. This is a very confusing subject with very intricate math, I would appreciate an explanation with math, and an explanation to that math. (The link I showed you is pretty well explained, even though confusing.) I'd like to see something along the lines of that link, again it is Passive Haste studies. I realize i'm being picky, but I just want somewhere to start if no one has done anysort of math/testing on this subject.
You seem to not grasp that even though 10% haste only take 0.15s off Life Tap, it still is the same benefit as taking 0.25s off Shadow Bolt. Haste is quite uniform in this aspect. I'll calculate the formula to try and explain the concept.

For destro it is fairly straightforward:
Let A be your dps with no haste. Take your total damage over a given time frame, say T seconds.
Unhasted damage = A * T.

If you now obtain haste rating B, you'll be able to cast the same spell sequence faster, doing the same damage, but in less time.
The new time is T / (1 + B / 1577)

To calculate your new dps, you divide total damage A*T by the new time frame T / (1 + B / 1577). This gives you the following formula:

hasted dps = A * (1 + B / 1577)

Mind you, there is a cap at 33% haste (500+ haste rating), because you can't speed spells up below 1 second.

For affliction it's less beneficial. Aside from reducing the dot gap, which is probably not that big of a deal, you'll have more time to cast shadow bolts which are your your lowest dps filler spell. There have been a few attempts in this thread to model it, I'm sure you can dig around in those. This is assuming one target. Multiple targets will make haste a LOT more attractive.

For demonology haste is obviously less important since it doesn't add dps to your demon. It'll still be good though.

Either way, the spreadsheet should accurately tell you what your benefit from haste is.

In my opinion haste is pretty damn good aside from the spreadsheet conclusions. It effectively lowers your reaction time with spells that have a cast time like banish/fear. It also increases your aoe abilities significantly, and none of the other stats do this.

03/13/08, 12:15 PM   #1877
rochan
Piston Honda

Human Warlock

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Cronjob I need a bit of advice. I had been running with Robes of Rohnin but yesteday I was able to get the T6 robes and T6 helm. I was under the impression that the rhonin robes were better than T6 robes however when I punch them into the spreadsheet imy DPM and DPS goes down. I thought using the Rhonin robes and the rest T6 was better than full T6? The item value appears better but on the DPS tab when I equpt it the DPS and DPM go down. Am I overlooking something?
You are pretty much completely wrong there. 4pc T6 + Kazrogal Legs are "the best" closely followed by Illidan helm (but really who wants to give up their WINGS?).

03/13/08, 12:28 PM   #1878
Cronjob
Piston Honda

Orc Shaman

Twisting Nether
 Originally Posted by rochan You are pretty much completely wrong there. 4pc T6 + Kazrogal Legs are "the best" closely followed by Illidan helm (but really who wants to give up their WINGS?).
I agree that the Elements pants + 4 pc T6 is "the best" but I wasn't asking about "the best" overall. I was just asking what was better full T6 or Rhonin + 4 pc T6.

On a side note is there a set lifetap rotation or ideal life tap rotation for destro locks? For example 5 bolts 2 taps or 4 bolts 3 taps. etc etc. Is there such a thing or is it too dynamic do to encounters and does the spreadsheet show this somewhere.

03/13/08, 12:35 PM   #1879
Trickykid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Warlock

Turalyon
 Originally Posted by Cronjob I agree that the Elements pants + 4 pc T6 is "the best" but I wasn't asking about "the best" overall. I was just asking what was better full T6 or Rhonin + 4 pc T6. On a side note is there a set lifetap rotation or ideal life tap rotation for destro locks? For example 5 bolts 2 taps or 4 bolts 3 taps. etc etc. Is there such a thing or is it too dynamic do to encounters and does the spreadsheet show this somewhere.
The rotation is "Always be casting something" -- if you need mana, tap. In fights with lots of damage, it's probably best to sprinkle life taps over time to avoid a death. If health isn't a concern, life tap when all cooldowns are down and you're doing the least possible damage.

03/13/08, 12:41 PM   #1880
rochan
Piston Honda

Human Warlock

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Arelenda You seem to not grasp that even though 10% haste only take 0.15s off Life Tap, it still is the same benefit as taking 0.25s off Shadow Bolt. Haste is quite uniform in this aspect. I'll calculate the formula to try and explain the concept. For destro it is fairly straightforward: Let A be your dps with no haste. Take your total damage over a given time frame, say T seconds. Unhasted damage = A * T. If you now obtain haste rating B, you'll be able to cast the same spell sequence faster, doing the same damage, but in less time. The new time is T / (1 + B / 1577) To calculate your new dps, you divide total damage A*T by the new time frame T / (1 + B / 1577). This gives you the following formula: hasted dps = A * (1 + B / 1577) Mind you, there is a cap at 33% haste (500+ haste rating), because you can't speed spells up below 1 second. For affliction it's less beneficial. Aside from reducing the dot gap, which is probably not that big of a deal, you'll have more time to cast shadow bolts which are your your lowest dps filler spell. There have been a few attempts in this thread to model it, I'm sure you can dig around in those. This is assuming one target. Multiple targets will make haste a LOT more attractive. For demonology haste is obviously less important since it doesn't add dps to your demon. It'll still be good though. Either way, the spreadsheet should accurately tell you what your benefit from haste is. In my opinion haste is pretty damn good aside from the spreadsheet conclusions. It effectively lowers your reaction time with spells that have a cast time like banish/fear. It also increases your aoe abilities significantly, and none of the other stats do this.
Good post, but if you call 33% haste a cap you should mention other caps. 33% haste cap isn't very significant as it applies only to lifetaps. The "hard cap" would be when your shadowbolts are cast at 1 second which would be 2366 haste rating, with a "heroism hard cap" at 1456 haste rating. So basically haste is still quite effective after 500 rating.

edit: Oh yeah Galzohar is correct, LT caps at 50% haste (789 rating), not 33%.

Last edited by rochan : 03/13/08 at 12:59 PM.

03/13/08, 12:48 PM   #1881
Arelenda
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by Trickykid The rotation is "Always be casting something" -- if you need mana, tap. In fights with lots of damage, it's probably best to sprinkle life taps over time to avoid a death. If health isn't a concern, life tap when all cooldowns are down and you're doing the least possible damage.
"Always be casting something" sums it up pretty nicely. Obviously don't nuke right after threat resets (that is a good time to apply dots though). I typically will use my Life Tap/curse GCD to reposition myself, and if I'm required to move, I'll typically use that to tap as well. Obviously, don't go "Tap Happy" unless you know that it is safe to do so. I also try to keep my mana pool full when I know a heroism/bloodlust is about to hit, and I usually keep my health below the max so I benefit off Soul Leech (and FSW, although that has been a while).

If healer efficiency is a factor, I typically tap once and receive a heal over time effect, and make maximum use of that. However, 95% of raiding time has healers looking for something to do.

 03/13/08, 12:53 PM #1882 galzohar Bald Bull   Galzohar Blood Elf Paladin   Darksorrow (EU) haste scaling Lifetap will reach the cap at 50% haste, not 33%. Haste is a speed increase, not a cast time reduction. And even if you magically reach that, it just means haste goes back to its almost-as-good 2.3 values (affecting everything except 1.5s cast or instants). As for 10 haste vs spell damage, the reason changing your stats makes the "winner" actaully change is that they're already extremely close to start with. While it's not a horrible assumption to make that your haste will drop in value vs +damage as you gear up with sunwell gear, remember that: A. Your spell damage will also go up (maybe not as much as haste, but enough to not pre-jump to conclusions about haste vs damage without further research looking at full sunwell gear). B. They're so close that even if damage ends up surpassing haste (per itemization point, 1 haste rating is realistically always better than 1 spell damage but costs more (see: gems)), it doesn't really make a difference. So much that the inaccuracy of even the spreadsheets is probably bigger than the difference between the stats. As for maxDPS.com, I would advise avoiding it, as I noticed a few errors in it before even seeing how it actually calculates things - and heard it also calculates things wrong (such as using a 1 roll system which had been shown to be most likely incorrect - while doesn't make much difference on results when you're near the hit cap it shows the site is unreliable). Stick to spreadsheets that actually let the public see how things are calculated and give feedback so you get minimal amount of errors.
 03/13/08, 12:55 PM #1883 Eph Don Flamenco     Oamm Human Paladin   Kil'Jaeden [Leggings of Channeled Elements] offpiece is slightly better than [Vestments of the Sea-Witch] as the offpiece which is a little bit better than [Cowl of the Illidari High Lord] as the offpiece in most spread sheet tests I've done. I can't recall off hand, but I think T6 chest is slightly behind [Robes of Rhonin] test it on the sheets with your gear to be sure. As far as haste and mana scaling, the only area where this is an issue now that life tap speed scales is other mana regen methods (pots, blessing, totem, sp). But since the majority of our mana still comes from life tap its not as significant, but it is definitely something to think about when gathering large amounts of haste over damage. Last edited by Eph : 03/13/08 at 1:31 PM.
 03/13/08, 1:02 PM #1884 galzohar Bald Bull   Galzohar Blood Elf Paladin   Darksorrow (EU) While there are diminishing returns with haste due to taking less advantage of your mana regen from non-lifetap sources, the actual effect is quite neglicible if you look at the spreadsheet. The main thing that makes more haste cause other stats to become better is simply becuase any stat you stack will make the other stats better due to them being multipicative (dps = damage per spell * crit multiplier * debuff multiplier * speed * etc...), so the partial derivative of dps by any of your stats will be higher when you increase any other stat but not when you increase the stat itself. That means that the more you increase crit, for example, the more dps you'd gain out of hit/damage/haste/etc but crit will still give the same increase (taking first order approximation of the dps increase of those stats, which is pretty damn close to their true value for realistic item upgrade changes).
 03/13/08, 2:32 PM #1885 Dragones Glass Joe   Dragonez Human Warlock   Winterhoof Gems nvm Last edited by Dragones : 03/15/08 at 3:23 AM.
 03/13/08, 2:36 PM #1886 Eph Don Flamenco     Oamm Human Paladin   Kil'Jaeden I've actually found that +10 haste is showing up as the best dps in my sheet.
03/13/08, 2:38 PM   #1887
Trickykid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Warlock

Turalyon
 Originally Posted by Dragones So what gems is going to be better in 2.4 anyone done the math? 5 haste/6 dmg or +12 dmg?
You might find the last couple pages a good read. Or even the last post.

03/13/08, 5:16 PM   #1888
LockApologist
Piston Honda

Mug'thol
 Originally Posted by Trickykid You might find the last couple pages a good read. Or even the last post.

Anyone found a way to measure ISB uptime from a WWS report? I know the spreadsheets have estimated values, but I don't think my raids are getting close to that number. I often see all 4 charges used before I can get my next cast off.

03/13/08, 5:21 PM   #1889
Krazen
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Warlock

Turalyon
 Originally Posted by galzohar As for 10 haste vs spell damage, the reason changing your stats makes the "winner" actaully change is that they're already extremely close to start with. While it's not a horrible assumption to make that your haste will drop in value vs +damage as you gear up with sunwell gear, remember that: A. Your spell damage will also go up (maybe not as much as haste, but enough to not pre-jump to conclusions about haste vs damage without further research looking at full sunwell gear). B. They're so close that even if damage ends up surpassing haste (per itemization point, 1 haste rating is realistically always better than 1 spell damage but costs more (see: gems)), it doesn't really make a difference. So much that the inaccuracy of even the spreadsheets is probably bigger than the difference between the stats.
This is probably correct. The reason I suggest 12 dmg in red sockets, and 5/6 in yellows (rather than 10 haste in yellow and 5/6 in reds) is because I figure that more lifetapping means both more healing and more chances of accidentally getting gibbed (no matter how small that chance is).

Ultimately, using any of the 3 gems, and 2 greens/purples somewhere for the meta, is going to be the best approach.

 03/13/08, 5:34 PM #1890 dakalro Don Flamenco   Dexterus Human Warlock   Frostmane (EU) I know I'll be, for the first time in like, ever, socketing for bonuses. With all gear filled with reckless pyrestones/spinels. As it stands atm T6 shoulders + Illidan Head for meta fixin' seem like the best choice, to be replaced by a probable KJ head (at least haven't found a better combo yet which is why, unless I will find it, I'm setting myself in line for a "ninja" on Illidan head, which, just like Greatstaff and RoAK, I've passed plenty of times and now there's half the casters fighting over).

 Elitist Jerks PVE Raiding Compendium