PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 138

SageoftheTimes · 07/10/08, 1:35 PM

You have a bunch of Crit already, most likely 1k+ spell damage, and far less haste. As long as your spell hit is maxed, haste will technically give you better DPS (at the cost of slightly more life-tapping), because you get 1% haste from an amount of itemization points that would equal .75% crit. Even with Improved Shadow Bolt factored in, haste still gives a better bonus. Don't avoid crit completely, get a spreadsheet to get a semi-accurate picture (not completely). What you really want to do is be able to fit in extra Shadow Bolt in between any DoTs/Life Taps you cast, so consider looking at your rotation when thinking about haste. Also, try to get haste in chunks, because half a percent could be very hard to take advantage of, but 3% or more is a bit easier.

Warlocomotif · 07/10/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by evilhacker

Is this really true though? Crit and haste scale the same way - as a percent. Setting aside Imp SB, 1% crit with ruin should increase DPS by roughly the same amount as 1% haste and the increase is stat independant (the DPS value of the 1% changes but the % increase does not)

The difference, of course is that 1% is more expensive with crit than it is with haste ( 22.08 crit rating vs 15,7 haste rating).

Not only that, but when you have 25% crit, getting 1% more crit doesn't give you 1% more damage because on the 25% crit that you already have you gain nothing. So basically if you have 25% crit, getting +1% crit gives you +0.75% dps (ignoring ISB for a second).

The same thing goes for haste, it's not 1% increased dps for 1% more haste unless you currently have 0% haste.
Granted at early T6 level you generally have roughly 50 spell haste, and you get nearly the full effect from each point of haste rating still.

Arelenda · 07/10/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Warlocomotif

The same thing goes for haste, it's not 1% increased dps for 1% more haste unless you currently have 0% haste.

To clear any confusion about the terms we're using: an example

Say you have 197 haste. (roughly 1577/8)
This makes your SBs take 2,22s.
Your cast time reduction is 11.11%.
Your casting speed is 1,125. (= 2.5/2.22, through distance = speed * time, with distance being the 2.5s original time)

Dps scales linear with speed, which scales linear with haste rating.

easy math to back that up:
speed = 1+haste_rating/1577.

dps =
average_damage_per_bolt / bolt_casting_time =
average_damage_per_bolt / (2.5 / speed) =
average_damage_per_bolt / 2.5 * speed

• frmorrison · 07/10/08, 2:46 PM

To the pet question, Bochler has a decent approximation in the Another Warlock Spreadsheet.

Here is what I remember from my Felguard days (over a year ago!)

For Felguard, you can find his autoattack damage by doing 206 (unmodified damage) + AP/7. He gets 2 AP per 1 strength. Cleave is similar to autoattack, but has a different starting damage range and has a cooldown.

Imp has a base damage range and get 57% of spell damage added to the bolts.

Succy is similar to Felguard for autoattack (different starting damage), and the special attack does shadow damage and acts like an elemental melee attack (I don't recall the mechanics, Illidan Flames and Hydross are examples).

• Suggestive · 07/10/08, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

This implies that Succubus natural "weapon" has an average dmg of ~50?
50+(286/14) = ~70.5

This implies that Felguard natural "weapon" has an average dmg of ~80?
80+(323/14) = ~103

Is my understanding correct?

Well not really, the felguard's numbers include talents, but the succubus numbers do not so you have to keep that in mind. If i'm recalling correctly (i'm not at home right now) with talents the succubus's base weapon DPS is about 5 short of the felguard. I'll get around to properly answering arelenda's questions when i get home.

dedmonwakeen · 07/10/08, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Suggestive

Well not really, the felguard's numbers include talents, but the succubus numbers do not so you have to keep that in mind. If i'm recalling correctly (i'm not at home right now) with talents the succubus's base weapon DPS is about 5 short of the felguard. I'll get around to properly answering arelenda's questions when i get home.

I guess I'm still a little unclear as to whether the base attack power is already part of the "base weapon dps" number.

And thanks again for taking the time to provide this level of detail!

Zasz · 07/10/08, 9:31 PM

The thing that I dont understand yet with the spreadsheet is about crit vs haste. Does the spreadsheet calculate krits? If yes, how? I mean, krits are a big damage impact when they come. Haste is always there but lower my critrating atm with my gear.

I have 21% crit, 138 haste, hitcap and 1.375 shadow spelldmg with skilled felarmor. Till I can get more haste with more sunwell items, isnt crit a better choice since more crit => more dps while haste => lower crit but more dps for non crit dmg?
I went with haste+spelldmg sockets since everyone agreed its the way to go after having hitcap. Spreadsheet said it too btw. When I played with it and changed it to crit+spelldmg sockets, I lost about 35 dps. I socketed 6 orange gems with haste just to gain 35 dps?!

LockApologist · 07/10/08, 10:11 PM

35 DPS is what you see going from Hood of Hexing to T6, or T6 gloves to Sunfire gloves, etc. 35 DPS is a big gear upgrade. Overall, it doesn't seem like much, but all those things add up.

• Suggestive · 07/11/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

I guess I'm still a little unclear as to whether the base attack power is already part of the "base weapon dps" number.

And thanks again for taking the time to provide this level of detail!

Oh, yes the base ttack power is already part of base weapon DPS. Sorry i'm taking so long finishing up :P.

Medieval · 07/12/08, 6:39 PM

I could use some advice regarding haste/ spell dam/ crit

I recently joined Vegas, who are quite advanced in SWP< and as a result I am trying to get the best of my existing gear in order to catch up. I know that I will eventually upgrade most if not all of it, but in the mean time I am trying to maximize my efficiency.

I had 1325 Shadow Damage ( with FA), 25.45 crit , 211 hit and 0 haste. I know that I am overcapped on hit, but I cannot yet afford to reduce it, need to get a bit more before I can replace Blue Suede Shoes with Footpads of Madness.

After reading this thread and a couple of others and getting some valuable advice, I decided to try and get some haste in order to maximize my DPS at least close to standards.

So I replaced some items, switched some others around, did a bit of regemming and managed to bring myself to this setup
Armory Lite for Deamevil of Kul Tiras

It doesn't show spell haste for some reason, but it is there, 107 spell haste. I know it isn't much, but it is as much as I can manage for now. Unfortunately, this has severely nerfed my crit and I am not sure if this was the wisest decision in terms of DPS.

I would appreciate any advice.

• frmorrison · 07/12/08, 11:00 PM

Look at Rawr 14.1 or the spreadsheet to see what are better gems or gear pieces.

Anyway, don't worry about your crit remember you add 5% from Devastation.

When you get better boots, get Boar's speed, that is a lifesaver.

zanaris · 07/13/08, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

When you get better boots, get Boar's speed, that is a lifesaver.

Is boar's speed really optimal?

Boar's speed only adds dps if you gain casting time. The casting time has to be enough to get another cast in. This is fairly obvious.

Unlike haste, it's a flat time that you gain. (it's not .1 second each cast you only gain so much time per interval when you move.) From what I understand it's an 8% increase to movement speed. That would mean to get an extra cast off you would have to be moving for 33.783 seconds without boar's speed. Meaning that you would actually be moving for 31.281 seconds. (assuming a 2.5 second cast time)

I'm using a standard v=d/t equation. I dont believe it matters how fast we move initially because minor run speed is proportional to normal speed by 8% So I'm just assuming normal speed is one yard per second. To be honest, if you move faster than that it just makes minor run speed seem less practical because anything beyond running 30 yards is almost never done, barring archimond and supremus.

While it is possible for smaller increments of time to add to dps. (if you save .7 seconds with minor run speed and your cast is cut off when you finish casting your last cast which would not have been possible without run speed.) I cant see enchanting something for a what if over an enchant that gives guaranteed benefit.

Or is that way off?

Warlocomotif · 07/13/08, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by zanaris

Is boar's speed really optimal?

Boar's speed only adds dps if you gain casting time. The casting time has to be enough to get another cast in. This is fairly obvious.

Unlike haste, it's a flat time that you gain. (it's not .1 second each cast you only gain so much time per interval when you move.) From what I understand it's an 8% increase to movement speed. That would mean to get an extra cast off you would have to be moving for 33.783 seconds without boar's speed. Meaning that you would actually be moving for 31.281 seconds. (assuming a 2.5 second cast time)

I'm using a standard v=d/t equation. I dont believe it matters how fast we move initially because minor run speed is proportional to normal speed by 8% So I'm just assuming normal speed is one yard per second. To be honest, if you move faster than that it just makes minor run speed seem less practical because anything beyond running 30 yards is almost never done, barring archimond and supremus.

While it is possible for smaller increments of time to add to dps. (if you save .7 seconds with minor run speed and your cast is cut off when you finish casting your last cast which would not have been possible without run speed.) I cant see enchanting something for a what if over an enchant that gives guaranteed benefit.

Or is that way off?

Likewise 3 more stamina doesn't improve your DPS. Boar's speed is a lifesaver much like 3 Sta could potentially save your life. Only i'd say it's more likely for boar's speed to save you than 3 stamina.

Anedris · 07/13/08, 4:11 AM

Every second spent moving to or from your portal on Kalecgos is lost DPS. Every second spent moving to and from the safe zone when you get burned is lost DPS. Every second spent moving out of encapsulate is lost DPS. Every second spent moving out of void zones or away from singularity on M'uru p2 is lost DPS. And Kil'Jaeden has lots of movement.

And that's not even counting that it's easier to stay alive if you move faster.

The "it only helps if you gain another cast" argument applies no more to a movement increase than it does to small amounts of haste. You are just as likely to gain a small amount of time enabling you to turn 0.93 of a shadowbolt (which does no damage since you have to interrupt it) into 1 shadowbolt as your are likely to turn 1 shadowbolt into 1.12 shadowbolts (which is no gain because 0.12 of a shadowbolt means you didn't get the cast off).

And what else are you going to put on your boots anyways?

◊ manly · 07/13/08, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by zanaris

Is boar's speed really optimal?

Boar's speed only adds dps if you gain casting time. The casting time has to be enough to get another cast in. This is fairly obvious

Except.. no? You don't have to gain 'enough time to cast an extra cast' because fight durations are not static. It might be 5:59 or 6:00. You don't know. This is the exact same argument as spell haste. Spell haste is always good for precisely the same reason -- its good because on average, even if you don't get an extra shadowbolt in, its going to lead you to more dps.

Medieval · 07/13/08, 6:53 AM

I will get Boar's speed, since, let's face it, the days of the static fights are over.
According to the spreadsheet, it seems that I am gaining about 52 extra dps unbuffed just by replacing the crit with haste, so it seems to be working.

Arelenda · 07/13/08, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by zanaris

Is boar's speed really optimal?

3 stamina over 8% extra run speed? Seriously?

Any warlock with raiding gear has over 11000 hp easily. 3 sta, even with talents and BoK is not over 40hp. That's not even half a percent. On a stat that doesn't increase dps.

Get the speed. Even as a demonologist.

Not only cause it helps a tiny bit in avoiding aoe spells and being on your dps spot faster, but also cause it helps with running around in dungeons. I'll admit that in Sunwell you can mount and teleport, but everywhere else it's still quite convenient. Especially for the class that has the ability to summon people anywhere.

zanaris · 07/13/08, 5:24 PM

I'm sorry I just want an objective look at boar's speed. Is that really too much to ask? I tried using standard equations and logic to come to a conclusion. Vitality might provide very very little dps, but if boar's speed doesnt provide any then wouldnt vitality be the better enchant?

EDIT: it's not the same argument as spell haste. boar's speed is better the more time you spend running. Spell haste is better the more time you spend casting. There is a pretty big difference.

EDIT: Obviously shorter cast times would benefit more from boar's speed and less from vitality. Basically more spell haste would benefit more from boar's speed. My real question is, do you really have to run for 33.783 seconds (without boar's speed.) to gain 2.5 seconds with the enchant? Obviously there are factors that could favor boar's speed's small gain, but that seems like a very long time to be moving and not dpsing to me.

PSGarak · 07/13/08, 6:07 PM

And you have to spend a shitton amount of time casting before some small amount of haste comes out to one full cast. You're looking at it wrong. In a stop-and-go fight, every extra hundreth of a second has an equal chance of being the last part of a spellcast that lets you get the spell off. And since we realistically don't know which hundreth of a second that is, we weight them all equally by their probability to give you an extra spellcast, which for haste turns out to being the same as 1% more casting = 1% more damage. It's an average, but a valid one.

For Boar's Speed, think of it as hasting your running. You're adding 8% haste (170ish haste rating?) to your "git out tha fire" spell. If you spend 6 seconds per minute running, that's 10% of your time, so 0.8% haste on average, the equivalent of something like 18 constant haste rating. You can extrapolate this to various other amounts of gitting out da fiers. At a stand-still brick-wall DPS fight, it is 0 DPS. At just about any amount of running above zero, it's a non-trivial amount of DPS that ends up overshadowing 3 STM or 4mp/5.

[e] Hm... should "Get owt the fier" be added as a filler spell to Leulier?

Arelenda · 07/13/08, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by zanaris

I'm sorry I just want an objective look at boar's speed. Is that really too much to ask? I tried using standard equations and logic to come to a conclusion. Vitality might provide very very little dps, but if boar's speed doesnt provide any then wouldnt vitality be the better enchant?

I actually forgot about [Formula: Enchant Boots - Vitality].

How much dps does vitality add? It gains you mana, causing you to lifetap less. I will ignore the 4hp5 part, I don't think it adds anything. Given that a lifetap gains you 1800ish mana, you'd gain one lifetap per 1800/4*5=2250 seconds. Or 1.5s casting time per 2250s, if you have 0 haste. That is roughly 0,066% dps. Which is about the same as +1 spell damage.

This is a very rough estimate, using napkin math, but I'm sure it drives the point home: dps wise, all boot enchants are inferior to other item enchants, by a landslide. You won't measure any damage increase with any of them.

I personally recommend boar's because it combines both stamina and speed, but they all are very unimpressive dpswise.

Medieval · 07/13/08, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

And you have to spend a shitton amount of time casting before some small amount of haste comes out to one full cast. You're looking at it wrong. In a stop-and-go fight, every extra hundreth of a second has an equal chance of being the last part of a spellcast that lets you get the spell off. And since we realistically don't know which hundreth of a second that is, we weight them all equally by their probability to give you an extra spellcast, which for haste turns out to being the same as 1% more casting = 1% more damage. It's an average, but a valid one.

For Boar's Speed, think of it as hasting your running. You're adding 8% haste (170ish haste rating?) to your "git out tha fire" spell. If you spend 6 seconds per minute running, that's 10% of your time, so 0.8% haste on average, the equivalent of something like 18 constant haste rating. You can extrapolate this to various other amounts of gitting out da fiers. At a stand-still brick-wall DPS fight, it is 0 DPS. At just about any amount of running above zero, it's a non-trivial amount of DPS that ends up overshadowing 3 STM or 4mp/5.

[e] Hm... should "Get owt the fier" be added as a filler spell to Leulier?

I would think that this would be very useful in a fight like Kalecgos, in which you run for about 15% of the time if not more.

zanaris · 07/14/08, 2:55 AM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

This is a very rough estimate, using napkin math, but I'm sure it drives the point home: dps wise, all boot enchants are inferior to other item enchants, by a landslide. You won't measure any damage increase with any of them.

I personally recommend boar's because it combines both stamina and speed, but they all are very unimpressive dpswise.

Sounds alot like subtlety imo. So is there math anywhere that talks about dps increase from boar's speed for casters? I can find all kinds of stuff about cat's swiftness versus dexterity for melee classes.

You are going to hate me for doing this >.<

3.6.2 Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
For PvE, either [Formula: Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Formula: Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Derivation:
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.
So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

Now this aproximation of four and a half seconds seems pretty close to caster damage as well. One of my buddies in my guild stated the following.

(D+4mp)(T-t) < D(T-(t/1.08))

which can be simplified to

T < t(0.074D+4mp)/4mp

Now currently the 4mp variable is going to be dependant on T to determine how much dps value the 4mp5 is going to be worth. And I'll address that in a later post. Just some food for thought for now, and if you have an idea of what the DPS increase of 4mp5 is worth on a fight duration of T then you can plug in some numbers and look into it for yourself.

For me, on a 361 second fight 4mp5 is worth 2 DPS assuming 100% DPS time and I have a theoretical DPS of 2079. So for me I would have to spend above 4.63 seconds moving during a fight for Boar Speed to be better DPS than Vitality.

I know this is kind of rough, but honestly all of the TC I have seen on this debate suggest if there is even a little movement Boar Speed is going to be superior for DPS.

My only concern with his math is that these 4.63 seconds moving during a fight with boar's speed doesnt really make sense to me. Since casters dont actually have to actively run into melee range then I'm not entirely sure that this is a fair estimate. Am I irrational for feeling that way? Is it totally unreasonable to chose vitality over boar's speed? or are they both so minuscule to dps that it doesnt matter?

Splot · 07/14/08, 3:19 AM

Normally on a fight you have one or more of the healers throwing HoTs on the warlocks and if you have a shadow spec you are regaining health on damage you will always have life to tap. Without this and with slowly decaying health due to tapping on the spreadsheet it gives you a rough time interval between lifetaps that should give you an idea on the number of casts between taps. With my gear I get one lifetap every 20.03 seconds or one lifetap every 20.20 seconds with vitality.

It may be subjective but that 8% run haste sure feels like it saves my arse, that 0.17 seconds extra may in theory give me 1 extra dps, but I am sure I will lose it in latency.

Anthraxx · 07/14/08, 6:14 AM

Vitality adds <5dps in my case, according to Leulier's SS.

Boar's speed saved my ass a lot of times on Felmyst.

Movement is the name of the game nowadays, running faster wins by far

Faldrath · 07/14/08, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by zanaris

Am I irrational for feeling that way? Is it totally unreasonable to chose vitality over boar's speed? or are they both so minuscule to dps that it doesnt matter?

I don't think you're irrational, but I think you're looking at it from an unorthodox angle, so to speak. For me, personally, if Boar's Speed saves my life in one single fight, it will have done more for me than Vitality ever will.