Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warlocks

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03/31/08, 2:11 AM   #2161
XStoliX
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Onyxia (EU)
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:25 AM   #2162
Gaborn
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Dun Modr (EU)
I would like to know your logic to stack crit. Crit is an statistical stat too and stacking it, based on your logic could not give you the results you want because the number os casts in a fight is too small.

So your logic is flawled and because of that you are wrong.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:35 AM   #2163
Arelenda
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
Hm, is it possible to add a little 2-line comment in the compendium that Mana Potions are the best consumable to use for maximising DPS in a fight where some life taps/dark pacts while standing still are required?

Our warlocks were quite surprised by that, I fetched some quotes from the thread and a link to the spreadsheet, trying to convince them.

Even just a little entry near "Additional tips and tricks" would be enough, just to give that pretty vital info in an otherwise great compendium.
Best consumable? as opposed to what? [Destruction Potion]?

Some quick math and working with the sheet showed me that for my gear and spec, [Super Mana Potion] scores about 50% better than a destro pot. The gap becomes smaller when considering Bloodlust/Heroism and high haste rates, but even then mana pots seemed to be better. Note that destro pots combined with Bloodlust/Heroism during any special phase (such as a vulnerability or wild magic or somesuch) can be the better option.

Given the relative low extra dps output from these things (less than 50dps by optimistic estimates), I think that unless you're having major trouble with an enrage, it's safer to skip the potions and have an extra emergency button in the form of a [Super Healing Potion] or [Super Rejuvenation Potion] or a [Mad Alchemist's Potion]. I'll update the compendium when I have some more time.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:43 AM   #2164
Arelenda
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I can answer this one pretty easily.

If you're looking at damage meters for one fight, they won't be representative. If you take them from an entire raid's worth, it'll contain about half as much trash damage as boss damage, depending on how much time you spent on each. Except on trash, the hit cap is 50ish. Hit is useless against the majority of the mobs you're fighting. If you fought bosses exclusively, the difference would be much more noticeable.

The main premise for stacking hit is that it is the best way to increase your dps against bosses, which is where dps matters. While one could make some valid points against this, this is why people tell you to stack hit.

I don't recommend using ShadowSeer at this point, it needs a rewrite for 2.4, which is not something I'll work on soon. I want 2.4 to stabilize first.

Last edited by Arelenda : 03/31/08 at 3:13 AM.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 10:16 AM   #2165
SchLing
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.

Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/

The spreadsheet is using math under optimal conditions, and so it will also give you the optimal number of your DPS. I doesn't take account for lag, movement and the players ability to play his character effectivly.

In addition, if you take your stats and set your hit up from 8% to 16% you will see that you gain 1700DPS instead for 1600DPS. So, even if the spreadsheet is giving you number you can not live up to in a real enviroment it still shows you that over time hit will give more damage. And in the long run average wins.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 10:56 AM   #2166
ChrisTheLock
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Area 52
Quick Question

I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.

Ty in advance

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 11:34 AM   #2167
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
masanbol's Avatar
 
Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by ChrisTheLock View Post
I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.

Ty in advance
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.

Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I'm wondering what you're expecting to hear from this forum if you're unwilling to listen to the advice that's being given. Everyone here is going to tell you the same thing: hit is best until you're capped, use the spreadsheet to model what you need next.

The spreadsheet will never tell you exactly down to the last DPS point exactly what you will put out on a given fight, but it's a great way to model a perfect situation. Just because it can't tell you perfectly what you're capable of doesn't make it useless. It's easily the most effective tool for a warlock to model ideal DPS for our specs, and if it gave you an answer you didn't like or didn't want to hear, there isn't very much we can do about it, and we aren't here to validate your assumptions.


United States Offline
Old 03/31/08, 11:43 AM   #2168
ChrisTheLock
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by masanbol View Post
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.
.
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 11:47 AM   #2169
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
masanbol's Avatar
 
Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by ChrisTheLock View Post
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.
The spreadsheet will tell you exactly what stat is best to next improve your DPS. The first post in this thread has links to the spreadsheet as well as plenty of other good information about gearing.


United States Offline
Old 03/31/08, 1:32 PM   #2170
shed
Don Flamenco
 
shed's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Scilla
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.

Scenario is something like :

-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 1:38 PM   #2171
Vlar
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by shed View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.

Scenario is something like :

-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock
The spreadsheet could prolly do this for you.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:00 PM   #2172
Bandoer
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Earthen Ring
Looking over WWS parses for Brutallus, the best fire and the best shadow performances were about the same, around 2300 dps.

Wow Web Stats

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:39 PM   #2173
Cronjob
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Looking over WWS parses for Brutallus, the best fire and the best shadow performances were about the same, around 2300 dps.

Wow Web Stats
Which specifically are you looking at? I found that on Brut shadow out paced fire. We downed him lastnight and all our locks were shadow bolt 1 affliction.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 2:45 PM   #2174
Bandoer
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Earthen Ring
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.

Offline
Old 03/31/08, 3:03 PM   #2175
Vlar
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.
As to the first one...

Durcyn - 2295 dps as shadow, 34% crit adding on to:

Zuran - 1477 dps Shadow Priest

-and-

Werp - 1934 dps affliction warlock with 25% crit on bolts

If we take the dps difference between the fire lock and the shadow lock and divide it by the combined dps of the shadow dps'ers, shouldnt it show the percent of dps for each which ISB needed to provide to make up the difference? (If I am completely off, I will edit this out)

DPS difference = 20
Combined Shadow = 5706 dps
20/5706 = .003505

So ISB would have needed to make up 0.35% of each of there dps to equal the fire lock. (does that sound correct?)

Edit: as to the second one, there were no shadowlocks in that kill to compare to.

Edit 2: added Werp's crit rate

Edit 3: more of my usual bad math skills.

Last edited by Vlar : 03/31/08 at 3:29 PM.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warlocks

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Holy Raiding Compendium v2 constantius Priests 1472 10/24/08 9:03 AM
[Priest] Holy Raiding Compendium (2.3.x) constantius Class Mechanics 986 04/04/08 12:51 PM