Eph

Tap when you are running or can't do anything else. Also, the ideal is to end the fight with zero mana and not have wasted any dps time to lifetapping.

 

Arelenda

to original poster:
I don't see the reason to stay on a high amount of mana. But it doesn't really matter. As long as you don't end the fight with high amounts of mana, since that means you tapped too much.

If they are simply hitting harder, but throw the same amount of bolts, and you have comparable haste ratings, then it's simply gear.

As people mentioned, the Sextant has an internal cooldown and is not very good any more. You're way better off with the Alchemist Stone you're using now. Soulfrost will help too, as will getting a better weapon. If you're routinely grouped with a shaman, I'd recommend dropping hit to 190 by regemming. Extra sunwell T6 should help a lot too, and it has high drop chance.



I did the math myself, as well. Mana Pots are far superior. Unless you're talking high haste+heroism+skull, or a fight where you have Life Tap room, like Felmyst.


Calculations omitted for clarity. Available on demand.

For the following stats: 1500 spell power, 30% crit, 0 haste. Assume CoE/Weaving/Misery/DS/50% ISB. Assume crit meta. Assume no alchemist, no crit on mana pots (it has 5% crit chance in reality). You get the following results:

Average Shadow Bolt damage: 4735.
Average SB damage under Destro Pot: 5095 (360 more). (ignoring extra SB uptime to 2% increased crit chance)

With 0 haste, only 5 bolts are affected, but we'll assume 6.
Each Shadow Bolt under Destro pot gains you 360 damage on average.
So, roughly 6x360=2160 damage for a destro pot.

Each mana pot earns you 70% of a Shadow Bolt, or 3340 damage on average

If you're an alchemist, multiply mana pot damage by 40%.

If you have haste, multiply 360 by the amount of complete Shadow Bolt casts you can fit in a 15s window. It turns out that you obtain equal results for destro pots if you get your SB casting time under 1.7, which is doable with high amount of haste + heroism.

 

Anexus

Nice, I was actually wondering about how haste affected mana and destro pots. I have a few questions though.

How did you reach the number 70%? And did you include the gcd reduction (and faster lifetap) when calculating the breakpoint for mana vs destro pots? I'm also a bit curious about lifetapping during bloodlust. Most of the time I need to life tap because I go oom during bloodlust, which leaves me no choice. But I guess I'm wondering if this breakpoint will be different if a destro pot forces you to lifetap during the buff while a mana pot allows you to cast more. I guess i should encourage our shamans to give a warning before they pop bloodlust so I can be prepared and lifetap earlier, but that's besides the math here I guess.

 

Arelenda

Calculations for 70%:

Assume no haste, 1500 spell power.

Life Tap nets you 1772. 1181 mana per second. (=1772/1,5)
A mana pot averages you 2460 (2400 + 5% crit). So that gains you 2,08s worth. (=2460/1181)

A Shadow Bolt costs you 2.5s + 400 mana (assuming 5/5 Cataclysm). 400 mana is the equivalent of 0,34s (400/1181). So 2.834s total.

2,08s/2.834=73%.

If you do the same calculations for other haste values, you get the same result. It is independent of haste.


As for Life Tapping during Bloodlust/Heroism: I vaguely recall seeing some calculations making it better to LT outside of the Bloodlust, but I currently can't see why that would be the case. You gain 30% casting speed, it shouldn't matter whether you spend it on a faster LT or SB. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

What does matter is how you time your last spell: if you manage to start a SB in the last 0.5second, it still gets full benefit, so you're effectively increasing the bloodlust length by 2s. (assuming a 2.5s cast).

 

PSGarak

A mage ran some calculations in this thread and found that while shadowbolting was superior during bloodlust, it wasn't by much, basically to the point where you really shouldn't be bothered. Those equations were very rough, based on the spreadsheet DPS-equivalency of mp/5, but they were illustrative of the point. Intuitively, yes, compressing the cast cycle should be location-independent, since in any case you're netting yourself an extra .35*40s of casting (or whatever). Reordering the casts still results in the same result after the same amount of time, except for the end-of-cast loophole you mention.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

soylentorange

I've been reading through the wealth of information in this threat and finding it very helpful, however due to its great length I hope it's okay if I just ask a few questions that may or may not have already been answered ... I'm also hoping to find an answer besides "just look at the spreadsheet". If I JUST wanted to plug numbers in, I wouldn't be asking here ;D

I'm in a guild that has cleared all content up to 4/5 MH and 4/9 BT and is currently working on Archimonde. I am currently the best geared warlock who raids regularly, and usually pull close to if not top damage, but I'm fairly certain I could do more dps if I tweaked my gear. I am 0/21/40 shadow destro with around 1400 buffed spell damage, 30% crit with talents, and (WOW!) 40 haste (I recently was lucky enough to pick up a Sunfire Robe from a brief foray into SWP for trash). I usually sit at 162 hit but swap out a ring to get up to 184 hit (I lose around 1% crit) when needed, and my group ALWAYS has an elemental shaman in it. I wish I could just link my armory, but I'm at work and I logged out in really wonky gear.

I got into an argument the other day with a paladin in the guild who was calling me out for gemming with orange spell damage and hit or crit gems rather than with flat haste gems. While this guy didn't actually know what he was talking about, it did get me wondering whether I'm "doing it wrong." I would ideally like to stay at around 30% crit because from my understanding this is a good amount for keeping ISB up. I'm already lacking in the hit department, even though I'm nearly always above 16% with the elemental shaman who's a permanent fixture in my group I do feel sort of bad for not having exactly 202 hit from gear. I DO have gear that I can swap out that gives me 204 hit, but I lose maybe 2% crit from it, and it seems like a waste when I'm nearly always benefitting from the 3% hit from Totem of Wrath.

This paladin's perspective - granted, he's never played a warlock and I don't as a rule put much stock in what he says - was that it's dumb to gem at ALL for damage once you get over 1200 or so. My first real question is, is there a number that I should be striving to keep my spell damage around? I've heard 30% crit thrown around as a sort of magic number for the stat, and I know for hit you want to aim for 16%/202. Am I gimping my DPS by focusing "too much" on spell damage? Also, what number should I aim for in the haste department? Since my guild has only progressed midway through T6 content, it seems like there isn't a whole lot of haste to be found, and I don't really feel like socketing over a whole bunch of epic gems to gain a little bit of haste and lose a lot of crit and hit.

As someone at a 4/5 MH, 4/9 BT level, what is a reasonable amount of dps to expect an appropriately geared warlock to put out? Since I don't really have any other locks at my level in the guild to compare myself to, I'm hoping someone here can give me a bit of advice. This is my first post and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I don't make too much of a fool of myself =P Thanks in advance.

 

Jimb

Hey, I was wondering about Drums of Battle. Specifically dropping enchanting to pick up LW to use these drums. I've done plenty of reading about its a minor personal dps loss but a giant party dps increase. My guild is 5/5 9/9 beginning SWP. Just curious if it is really worth it or to stick with my 12 spell damage on my rings?

Also I know i can keep the enchants on my rings, however I don't have the best rings I will be able to get, and probably won't until later on in SWP.

EDIT: I am destro and I do have the 4 piece T6, if it matters to my question.

 

PSGarak

Soylent: Your paladin friend is talking out his ass. The complete, exhaustive list of magic numbers are: Hit-capping, and getting enough haste to fit an extra incinerate in between immolates. Even for rules of thumb, for that level of content, 1200 spell damage is pretty low, and 30% crit is pretty high at any level. Normal is more like 1400-1500 and 22-25%. Haste socketing is generally better than crit socketing, the inflection point of when it's better than damage is in the 1500 range, but it can vary depending on socket color and bonus.

And, sorry to say it, but your questions are better answered by the DPS spreadsheet. The only way we could answer your question is by running the numbers for you, which we'd rather not.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Arelenda

It's never a dps loss. You gain 0.02 seconds, your party gains 1.52s. And you can be smart with drums, just like with Life Taps. Use them on the pull, or when SB and LT are not an option.

I respecced to LW from Alchemy and I don't like it much. It's extra expenses, our AH prices are insane and you have to mess with rotations when there's more drummers. But it is undoubtably the best profession for dps. A drum equals 6 seconds of extra casting time. That's roughly 10k damage in a somewhat decent group.

Mind you, for classes that do are not limited by GCD (like most melee people), drums are even better.

 

Arelenda

.

Welcome to the boards!

You can never have too much spell damage, he's wrong. The original post has info on how your spell stats interact with each other (and has a link to the location where it's discussed). In short: there are no magic numbers, except for the hit cap. When choosing between equal amounts of crit/haste/spell damage, haste is typically better.

Once you reach the cap you do NOT want to be over it. Even agility does more for you than hit rating over the cap. You'll find yourself obtaining more and more hit as you progress, it's on the good pieces anyway. I'd actually welcome new pieces without hit on them, since it's completely wasted on me at the moment.

 

soylentorange

Alright, that was pretty much just what I was looking for! I'm going to plug some more specifics into the dps spreadsheet, but those loose parameters for spell damage and crit are helpful. I'll probably wind up resocketing for damage and haste rather than damage and crit, since I've more and more often been getting grouped with a moonkin and winding up with around 35% crit, which sounds like it's quite high. Up until this point I was rather obsessed with getting my crit "high enough" since when I first specced destro it was only around 20%, but it seems like at this level I can start to focus more on haste. Thanks!

 

rochan

What you will find is the difference between the gems is negligible.
There is no "high enough" crit level, the spreadsheet can tell you whether destro will beat out affliction.

Also if you have an elemental shaman you only need 13% hit for horde, so gear accordingly.

As for LW, it will give your raid more dps. But come WOTLK they are nerfing it significantly for casters, so be prepared to switch back. I always thought people rerolling LW to cheese encounters was a dumb mechanic because it was so overpowered. I'm proud to say we beat Sunwell with no caster LWers.

 

clavarnway

You don't need drums to beat anything, but they help. That's why I did it. I don't give a shit if they are not useful in the expansion, I'm trying to kill bosses now. I picked up skinning and grinded the leather in 4 days off off-and-on playing, and had Drums in the raid that 4th day. Leveling profs isn't that hard, and it was an easy choice, as I wasn't even using tailoring for anything. I will worry about that prof slot when WOTLK hits.

summary: To each his own, it's a personal choice, put some thought into it!

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/1424974uXyta.png

 

Krazen

I've actually been playing around with this a bit more now that I'm getting pretty close to the optimal gearset, and I find that [Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents] isn't quite as bad compared to [Sunflare] as I initially figured.

The fundamental problem I've found is that to get any meaningful increase, I essentially need both [Handguards of Defiled Worlds] and [Sunflare] to make either of them work, or you need to rely on Shamans to hitcap.

Currently, I have 205 hit with the [Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents], so 47 hit out of 50 is 'usuable', which makes it superior to a Sunflare/Chronicle combo (which brings up another problem: Chronicle drops in an instance nobody runs anymore, so you have to go back and get it if you don't have it already). Out of the 30 hit that remains, Council Cloak > Nethervoid covers 18 (which you lose in any event with [Tattered Cape of Antonidas]).

The bottom line is swapping to [Sunflare] netted me only 23 dps on leulier's sheet without throwing multiple KJ items into the mix. You get a greater gain from the M'uru ring or the trash JC neck.

 

rochan

What it boils down to is that there are a few options for the "ultimate set" that are quite similar, but they all require multiple Kil"Jaeden items or crafted drops, which are a bitch to get. Unfortunately this also puts casters in a tight spot for loot competition, more so than any other class.

 

Zasz

I recently had an interesting conversation with another WL and his arguement is: "Slow crits will always mean more dps than fast non crits."

 

Pentamorfi

But if you're counting on getting the Sunflare, you can count on getting the gloves too. Nobody but warlocks want them for endgame gear.

The real PITA for me and my guild in general, in terms of hit gear that you absolutely NEED before dropping the staff for Sunflare was the Skull from Illidan, which I only got about 2 weeks ago. Those two are the items you absolutely need before getting Sunflare. If you don't have the trinket, the staff is a very good weapon and worth building a gear set around.

 

Ele'

It all depends of the numbers, really. Are you trading 1% crit for 1% haste, or 10 crit rating for 10 haste rating, etc ?

However, "slow crits" will always mean more dpm that "fast non-crits", as crits don't cost you more mana, opposed to extra bolts. But as long as mana is not a problem (think SP+Mana Pots.), it's a gross exageration. Just input the two options you have into a spreadsheet (be it two items or two whole sets), it will be more accurate.

You can clip our wings, but we will always remember what it was like to fly.

 

Ammanas

Yeah, even though you can look at the completely optimal gearset (an updated version with all the drops is posted a few pages back) three of those items come from KJ so its not like you can exactly plan your hit cap that way. [Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents] is still a very nice item because the 50 hit allows you to use a lot of the early SW upgrades that lack hit ([Sunfire Handwraps] [Leggings of Calamity] [Amice of the Convoker]) without having to re-gem.

Also, there are lots of guilds that drop BT to focus on SW and that means there are a decent amount of SW casters that don't have access to a skull. This makes it significantly more useful without the 25 hit to rely on from a trinket slot. The good news is that [Mana Attuned Band] and [Loop of Forged Power] are both pretty easy to obtain for any caster starting SW and can help significantly if you are without a Skull and having hit cap problems.

Same kind of deal for [Amice of the Convoker] as it is not strictly best in slot, but it is a significant upgrade over T6 shoulders that will last you until you have [Dark Conjuror's Collar]

Moral of the story is you shouldn't pass on the staff or shoulders just because they aren't strictly best-in-slot, as both can be a very big upgrade that will last you for all of SW. Once you start farming KJ you can worry about putting together the completely optimized gearset.

 

Ammanas

The main problem with crit and gearing/gemming/whatever for it is not, and has never been, that additional % to crit is not a significant DPS increase. The problem is the poor conversion rate on crit rating compared to other stats and the fact that it is still itemized with the same value as haste. It takes 22.08 crit rating per 1% as opposed to 15.77 haste, but they are itemized at the exact same value on gems/items. You should never choose a [Potent Pyrestone] over a [Reckless Pyrestone] because while 1% crit vs 1% haste may be debatable, 5 crit rating vs 5 haste rating is not. The same reasoning is what makes the crit based trinkets poor choices and items like [Ring of Captured Storms] inferior to their haste counter-parts.

Also, there is the misconception that you need to heavily factor in ISB uptime. Yes, the more you crit the more you contribute - but it takes a significant amount of crit to have any real effect on ISB. The 2-3% crit difference you might look at between gearsets is going to have very little effect on your raids actual ISB uptime. When you are talking about something as small as a 1% crit rating difference between two items, ISB is practically irrelevant.

You also have to consider the RNG factor of crit because with the length of most fights in the game you aren't going to cast enough SBs to make your actual crit numbers on a given fight reliably match your chance to crit. There has also proven to be slight diminishing returns on crit% versus a level 73 mob as opposed to a level 70 mob.

 

Zasz

Thx.

Btw, how much haste does it take to reduce the global cooldown down to 1 sec? Afaik thats the cap on gcd.

 

Arelenda

Casting time hasted = Original casting time / (1 + HR/1577)

so to make 1.5s into 1s, we get:
1s = 1.5s / (1+HR/1577)
1+HR/1577 = 1.5
HR = 1577/2 = 788,5

This is not an amount you can obtain in general raiding gear. I doubt it's even possible with all haste gems.


Under heroism, cap is at:
1s = 1.5s / (1+HR/1577) / 1.3
1+HR/1577 = 1.5/1.3
HR=0.2 * 1577 = 315.

315 is obtainable in normal raid gear (especially when getting drums). Not that it matters, it merely means your lifetaps aren't at full efficiency under heroism.

 

Zasz

I know these are unusual items to use in T6 content raids but what would you think about a combination of them:
[Blade of Wizardry] 30 seconds internal cooldown
[Quagmirran's Eye] 45 seconds internal cooldown
[Mystical Skyfire Diamond] 45 sedonds internal cooldown

I´m not sure if the meta effect stacks with the blade and trinket proc. Blade and trinket proc does stack. Trinket proc stacks with bloodlust. Would it be worth it to use them all together?? I personaly use the trinket till I get the skull but even then I consider switching the ZA trinket for the skull and keep the eye for the haste proc.

One issue I see here are the meta socketing requirements. On the other hand, I personally have 2 blue sockets and could switch to red stones for the rest of my gear for more spelldamage to make this meta work.

I know the items have lower spelldmg, no hit, crit or passive haste like their counterparts from sunwell/BT/Hyjal. Just in theory, having 3 haste effects per minute (if you´re lucky), wouldnt this mean a great DPS increase? Or is the loss of spelldamage, hit, crit and haste too big?

 

Gofa

Haste is good, but it isn't THAT good. Using any of these items is a big dps loss compared to their counterparts. Only the trinket is decent - however, it's still worse than HSH (and skull).

 

Zasz

I´m currently using [Ring of Ancient Knowledge] and [Mana Attuned Band]. Is it worth it skip the ZA ring for [Loop of Forged Power]? Is the extra stamina and int worth 5 sunmotes (which are rare for us atm)?