I did some testing with the spellstone and I saw no increase in damage for CoA. Tests were done on the test server, so I'm not sure if the bug is in live.
Okay, since everyone gauges dps by brutallus - my brutallus spec was 2/3/56 (with 2pts in backdraft, only conflagged once while moving) with the following priority queue (rotations are bad) - chaos bolt, immolate curse of agony, incinerate.
I was able to pull about 3200dps on the kill, so I'm not sure how people are struggling to break 2200. Granted, I have sunwell gear and such and used a flamecap and a haste potion (not during hero for the haste, as my spells would clip since I was at 435 haste, now at 475 haste rating). I may drop haste in favor of dmg - but there really isn't an easy way to do it so I may have to live with things or swap my trinket from skull to hex shrunken head for better dmg stacking. Not entirely sure yet.
But yeah, 3200 dps on Brutallus as 2/3/56. My only glyph is improved imp.
I can confirm nikitabanana. I was giving 2/3/56 a try at your first Brutalus fight with the new patch. But i have a slightly different spec than you, and i was using Conflagrate all the time, using Chaos Bold as soon as it was ready, with exception if i had to cast Immolate or Conflagrate. And i tryed to keep up CoA and Corruption as much as possible without dropping Immolate, Conflagrate or Chaos Bold.
Glyphs:
Glyph of Imp (Req. lvl. 15)- Increases the damage done by your Imp's Firebolt spell by 10%.
Glyph of Corruption (Req. lvl. 15)- You Corruption spell has a 4% chance to cause you to enter a Shadow Trance state after damaging the opponent. The Shadow Trance state reduces the casting time of your next Shadow Bolt spell by 100%
And i think the improved SB is worth the GCD. But thats just my opinion. So i managed to finish the fight with 3284 DPS, but to be honest, because of the first day raiding with that spec, i did some mistakes in that fight, causing me to dropp some DPS. I think with the experience of 1 week playing with that spec 3600 DPS on Brutalus should be possible, maybe a bit more.
Thats the top5 result of your first Brutalus after the patch with all of us beeing a bit confused about the new specs :-) : ImageShack - Hosting :: brut1kk9.jpg
I'm curious about the new stat weights for Affliction. Previously, due to a major lack of scaling, SP outweighed crit and haste by leaps and bounds (though the same held true for Destruction). Is there any news on stat weights relative to 70 and 80 Affliction builds now?
I played with the spreadsheet and came up with some numbers for my toon (early SWP). I did notice that the numbers varied quite a bit with gear level, but if you're looking for a ballpark figure for 56/0/5:
In regards to haste, it isn't necessarily going to follow the math. Obviously the best time to refresh a DoT is the millisecond after the final tick, but haste will both help and hinder you at various points in your rotation. It's like building a wall with 5 different sized bricks sharing no common proportions.
For the disgruntled warlocks out there- I've spent many hours on the practice dummys working on rotations to the point where I can instinctively refresh DoTs, and I find my DPS as 56/0/5 to be pretty close to the same as it was 0/21/40. Spending time as shadowmages has made us go soft, don't get discouraged if you're not topping meters. Affliction is the challenge we've all been wanting- playing a lock is no longer easymode DPS, and good locks will be able to take pride in playing their class well. Ruin will help our burst DPS so we don't fail so hard on trash, and mobs in WotLK won't have the 30% HP nerf. We are becoming SM/Ruin with an active pet. So put your current frustrations aside, things will get better.
Okay, since everyone gauges dps by brutallus - my brutallus spec was 2/3/56 (with 2pts in backdraft, only conflagged once while moving) with the following priority queue (rotations are bad) - chaos bolt, immolate curse of agony, incinerate.
I was able to pull about 3200dps on the kill, so I'm not sure how people are struggling to break 2200. Granted, I have sunwell gear and such and used a flamecap and a haste potion (not during hero for the haste, as my spells would clip since I was at 435 haste, now at 475 haste rating). I may drop haste in favor of dmg - but there really isn't an easy way to do it so I may have to live with things or swap my trinket from skull to hex shrunken head for better dmg stacking. Not entirely sure yet.
But yeah, 3200 dps on Brutallus as 2/3/56. My only glyph is improved imp.
Please post a WWS or at least let us know what your crit% was.
I am finding that 2800+ DPS is possible and happens quite frequently, but only due to having an insanely high crit% for a given fight.
Even so, 3200 DPS with your gear was possible and definitely expected before this patch.
The fact remains that warlock DPS has not changed much while every single other class has received such significant DPS buffs as to make our lack of a DPS increase with the patch look like what it was: a nerf.
The classes that are doing the best right now at 70 are the ones that can get all their dps talents in a level 70 build, like Ret. Two of the three warlock specs still can't reach Ruin, so they will scale better at 80. Destro can get all its dps talents but it still clearly needs some tweaking as it is still a bit counterintuitive and flat out more difficult to play. Warlocks scaled too high in BC, more than doubling in dps in basically one tier is hardly reasonable. Especially considering that insane dps came from pushing one single button over and over. So yes, it makes complete sense that those people at the very top end are going to come back to reality some.
Just because there are some other classes currently able to get back to that stratosphere doesn't mean warlocks belong there too. Balance at 80 matters, balance at 70 is meaningless. Complaining you aren't on top of the meters for the first time in a year is just whining. I can tell you from a mid to late T6 standpoint warlock dps has increased somewhat but not massively, but definitely not decreased. But I also hadn't reached that point of insane scaling. I'll remind us all that the only thing giving warlocks top dps for so long was gear and synergy. Getting out of the fire may take skill, but it won't make chain casting shadowbolts hit any harder. Going into LK, being able to maintain and execute a more complex rotation or priority system will have a much greater effect on dps.
We got exactly what we asked for, a more complex and interesting class to play. Not to mention countless long time wants like baseline instant corruption and ruin for every spec. Not everyone is going to like it now, not everyone is going to do it well. Be glad we sat on top of the heap for basically an entire expansion, and if the class is still fun to play and competitive at level 80, then there's nothing more to ask for.
@leino:
There is no static rotation, because of the differend cooldowns.
I start with CoA, COR, Immolate, Chaos Bold, Incinerate until the last tick of Immolate, and burn it with Conflagrate to gain the 3 x 30% castingspeed buff of Backdraft. Then i cast Immolate, Chaos Bold, Incinerate .....
My 1 priority is the Immolate, Incinerate, Conflagrate rotation. So, whenever Immolate runs out of time, i use Conflagrate to hit the last tick. My 2 priority is to use Chaos Bold as soon as the spell is ready, but if i have to Cast Conflagrate or Immolate in the main rotation, Chaos Bold has to wait. The 3 priority is to keep CoA and Corruption up, as long the 1 or the 2 priority is not disrupted. So, they are not up alle the time, but i try to keep them as much on as possible.
Felguard Demonic Frenzy with Demonic Brutality talent
On the subject of Demonology damage output: I noticed a couple of days ago on the live realms that the Demonic Frenzy buff on the Felguard was stacking at 5% increase to attack power per stack, according to the tooltip on the buff. According to the tooltip on the ability in the pet spell book, however, it should be stacking at 8% per stack, up to 10 stacks. I have 3/3 in the Demonic Brutality talent, which "increases the attack power bonus on your Felgaurd's Demonic Frenzy effect by 3%", so it seems to be a mismatch brought about by the talent. Has anyone else noticed this, and is anybody aware of whether it is simply a tooltip issue or whether the Felguard portion of the talent is actually ineffective?
Last edited by Peppermort : 10/21/08 at 12:29 AM.
Reason: Typo on talent quote
I agree with those stating that it's pointless to be whining now after spending so much time begging for a more complex class. I, for one, am spending so much more time than I ever did as DS/Ruin actually trying to get my rotation down, and loving it. Sure, it's a little frustrating to suddenly realize you're not the alpha among a pack of wolves, but it's infinitely more rewarding to be competitive and difficult to master.
As far as the stat weights go, I'm surprised to see haste valued above crit, though I'm sure there is an enormous drop-off once the GCD is hasted to 1 second, and I'll also take it with a grain of salt due to the disclaimer. =P
That's great to see that you're doing OK DPS on Brutallus, but honestly it's not surprising considering the simplicity of the fight, with burn being the only thing to hinder your DPS pace.
Meanwhile, on any fight like Archimonde where you constantly have to watch out for a threat like Doom Fire, keeping up a decent DPS cycle is pretty much next to impossible. This is as I see it the biggest problem with warlocks at the moment, on complex fights where you can't just sit there watching your DoTimer your DPS will suffer more than classes with simpler DPS cycles. I hope to see this issue addressed before the Beta is over, but I wouldn't hold my breath over it.
I agree with those stating that it's pointless to be whining now after spending so much time begging for a more complex class. I, for one, am spending so much more time than I ever did as DS/Ruin actually trying to get my rotation down, and loving it. Sure, it's a little frustrating to suddenly realize you're not the alpha among a pack of wolves, but it's infinitely more rewarding to be competitive and difficult to master.
I 100% aggre to that. I thank Blizzard for giving us a much more complex class now, witch needs so much more skill and knowledge of the class itself to get a good DPS out of the Warlock. No matter witch tree u prefer, everything is much better than the 1 button Shadowbold spamming that we could see the last month. Hopefully, if Blizzard just tweeks a bit around with the talents, we will see more than just 1 ultimate raiding spec out there.
I agree with those stating that it's pointless to be whining now after spending so much time begging for a more complex class. I, for one, am spending so much more time than I ever did as DS/Ruin actually trying to get my rotation down, and loving it. Sure, it's a little frustrating to suddenly realize you're not the alpha among a pack of wolves, but it's infinitely more rewarding to be competitive and difficult to master.
I think most are fine with a higher level of complexity. But we just don't want to be punished for embracing it. Be it dots being pushed off bosses becasue lack of debuff slots or backdraft causing clipping of not one, but two of the most likely spells to follow a conflag (Immolate and Chaos Bolt).
Make it as hard as you want but play fair with me.
The problem is that once you go that deep into afflictions tree, there's no reason to pass on those 4 final talents that boost so much your shadow damage spells. You wouldn´t be casting so much more SB in order to make it worth. Even with the mobs health reduced.
The opposite is actually true. Our dps would be higher if the fights were longer. If you're below people, it's generally because they have more cooldowns to pop at vs. us (we have none, obviously). Once those cooldowns expire and the time continues, you see the cooldown heavy classes level out more.
That does not really make too much sense, does it? Most CDs are on a 2 min timer. The CDs classes obviously gain a lot on us if the fights are 1 min, 3 min, 5 min etc and after your theory we would come out on top in 2 min, 4 min, 6 min fights etc. The only class/spec I can think of to which this argument applies are short fights for hunters with readiness, who can use rapid fire (5 or 6 min base CD) twice.
I did brut yesterday with a 5/56 destro spec and did just above 2000 dps, my imp (as did all pets actually) bugged out and did not dps at all, so I lost 300 there I guess, but still I am miles off 3200 and my gear is roughly the same as yours, just not going as much for haste. I did 2700 the other night on teron, but that's tops for me. I am using a conflag/3 sbolt rotation, that might be a mistake, but I doubt its a 1000 dps mistake. In general I think I played rather poor and had to lifetap 19! times (in a 3:30 fight) cause we had one fucking pala in the raid and the holy pala did not keep JoW up permanently along with just 1 replenishment in the raid.
Do you happen to have a WWS from your kill, nikitabanana? Would really like to see where the missing dps is from. Here's the one from our kill: Wow Web Stats
In general it was kinda annoying to keep a useful rot up for me, spells were .9s cast time more often then not with BL and whatever else haste buff up. Pretty sure I fucked stuff up there plenty of times, but dunno, 1200 dps is a somewhat hefty difference.
edit:
Found a WWS of a warlock doing 3200 dps: Wow Web Stats
He had a solid 73% crit rate on incinerate and their fight duration was much shorter, so higher BL uptime. We did bring alts/rerolls to get them some gear for wotlk so our raid dps/setup was not exactly up there. In short fights crit luck is obviously even bigger. If you just crit 70%ish, sure, dps goes up a ton. I guess realstic is not more then 50% at least, not even with raid buffs/debuffs.
edit:
Found a WWS of a warlock doing 3200 dps: Wow Web Stats
He had a solid 73% crit rate on incinerate and their fight duration was much shorter, so higher BL uptime. We did bring alts/rerolls to get them some gear for wotlk so our raid dps/setup was not exactly up there. In short fights crit luck is obviously even bigger. If you just crit 70%ish, sure, dps goes up a ton. I guess realstic is not more then 50% at least, not even with raid buffs/debuffs.
This is the issue. We are able to put competitive numbers up, when the stars align, we win the lottery and play flawlessly on top of that.
When we don't have insane luck with crit% but still play flawlessly our DPS is not competitive enough when compared to the other classes.
73% crit rate??
How often does that happen? Almost never.
This is the issue. We are able to put competitive numbers up, when the stars align, we win the lottery and play flawlessly on top of that.
When we don't have insane luck with crit% but still play flawlessly our DPS is not competitive enough when compared to the other classes.
73% crit rate??
How often does that happen? Almost never.
I'm not diggin your posts. Seriously. There's no use in telling us over and over again how lock has lost and all others won. Try coming up with some stuff that'll help all of us perform better. Contribute.
Honestly. I'm growing more and more tired of the constant pessimism and whining that lurks these forums since patchday. This is not what this forum is about. If you want to whine about locks current state go to official forums or spam your gchat. This isn't the place for it. I come here to read and share info on how to improve warlock gameplay and come up with even higher numbers, not read like 5 new posts of people talking about the current f*ing state of locks in a build that isn't even final, has many bugs yet to be fixed, and iterates on a balance that is 10 levels higher than what we currently play. We've read that stuff more than enough now. Time to get back to the real thing. Getting better at the game.
Originally Posted by Docus
There is no static rotation, because of the differend cooldowns.
I start with CoA, COR, Immolate, Chaos Bold, Incinerate until the last tick of Immolate, and burn it with Conflagrate to gain the 3 x 30% castingspeed buff of Backdraft. Then i cast Immolate, Chaos Bold, Incinerate .....
I found that using CB before Immolate gives you more leeway with the cooldowns. I'll usually have CB running out well before Immolate. It gives me enough time to Hit those Conflags right before Immo run out without much trouble.
Notice that this is just from dummy tests :/ Raiding is hard atm since our realm keeps crashing the instances.
Last edited by TangoDigital : 10/21/08 at 7:23 AM.
On the subject of Demonology damage output: I noticed a couple of days ago on the live realms that the Demonic Frenzy buff on the Felguard was stacking at 5% increase to attack power per stack, according to the tooltip on the buff. According to the tooltip on the ability in the pet spell book, however, it should be stacking at 8% per stack, up to 10 stacks. I have 3/3 in the Demonic Brutality talent, which "increases the attack power bonus on your Felgaurd's Demonic Frenzy effect by 3%", so it seems to be a mismatch brought about by the talent. Has anyone else noticed this, and is anybody aware of whether it is simply a tooltip issue or whether the Felguard portion of the talent is actually ineffective?
Tooltips don't reflect changes done by talents for a very long time, probably the beginning. Just read the tooltip of maledicted CoE or improved blood pact for an example.
73% crit rate??
How often does that happen? Almost never.
Well that truly is as usual as winning the lottery.
How many have tried felguard/ruin spec and how much dps have you guys done with it? At the moment I feel like it's equal or even more effective than destruction.
Emolate is 0/46/15 (Felguard Ruin)
Yroa is 0/15/46 (Shadow destro + Imp)
Mumapadurii is Demonic Pact Felguard
Yamizeek is Metamorphosis
Chololo is traditional 0/21/40 Succubus Sac (still? i called him The Control Group)
Yamizeek is the SR Tank on Illidan
Chololo is under-geared.
I'm in 2pT4 + 2pT5 + CSD meta and badge/ZA/SSC/TK gear. I was using Darkmoon Card Crusade and Timbal's Focusing Crystal instead of the Icon. My napkin math leads me to believe that in a DoT-heavy spec Timbal's is better overall though I could be wrong. I went with my gut.
Yroa has similar gear to me (we're in the same guild and have access to the same content) but he has Hex Shrunken Head.
Muma and Yami have arguably better gear than us.
We haven't had a chance to really evaluate shedding any hit for dmg or haste, I was using the Master Spellstone 1/2 on all pulls. I kept it consistent all night in order to have as much data as possible. I really wanted to pew pew with my Imp during the Flames phase though since those of us with Felguards just had them sitting around.
I didn't have a food buff but was Flasked. Sorry, kitchen was closed.
My paperdoll crit is 20% but had > 35% crit with my crit-able spells. Thanks, Demonology!
Edit: I'm obliged to point out that Yroa and Emolate were threat-capped frequently on Illidan, especially on the Flames phase. Chololo was also riding pretty high on TPS for that encounter. When I got capped, I'd help mages kill shadow friends and then return to Illidan.
This is the issue. We are able to put competitive numbers up, when the stars align, we win the lottery and play flawlessly on top of that.
When we don't have insane luck with crit% but still play flawlessly our DPS is not competitive enough when compared to the other classes.
73% crit rate??
How often does that happen? Almost never.
These are my thoughts too.
The performance of destro depends on the critrate you achieve in that special 2-3minutes (with 0/21/40 it was the same).
If a detro is showing me 3,2k dps, my first question is the critrate in that fight. And how performs the other locks, with the same spec.
I shoot 2,5k dps at brutallus with a lot of lag (server-performance is bad at the moment) with a low-dps spec 0/51/10 and 38% crit.
This is nothing special, but stable. Our Destros were reaching 2,2k.
To get more dps i think the most stable spec is 0/46/15.
I will give affli a try, but the complexity is disproportionate to a dämo-spec. And complexity costs dps.
I would discourage people against felguard/ruin at this point as the fights are so short, and Demonic Pact is so good. Being able to stack metamorphosis with trinkets and heroism is a massive boost, and Immolation aura is a non-trivial amount of damage (mine is doing 13k total damage which is 72 dps per 3 minutes for one GCD assuming you can get into melee range). My felguard is managing roughly 32% crit rate and made 104 attacks in 116 seconds (which is one every 1.12 seconds average) with one Demonic Empowerment (as I ran in) and one heroism. As a result both Demonic Pact and Demonic Empathy uptime are exceptional. In that two minute Teron fight, WWS shows two gains for each, indicating they fell off once each. Demonic Pact is significantly better than Totem of Wrath, meaning ideally every raid should be running with a full demo warlock currently. Felguard/ruin might be better individual dps on longer fights, but the overall gain from Demonic Pact probably outweighs that, and on shorter fights having a cooldown to burn and stack makes a big difference.
On a side note, if you use the Metamorphosis charge to get into melee range, it activates your melee autoattack. If you have heroism up, your hasted weapon speed will be faster than your gcd. So every time you cast an instant, you will get a melee attack off before your next cast. There's nothing more amusing than seeing firestone melee procs in the wws breakdown.
Even i had tried a lot on the pTR i testet again affli vs destro.
I were alone at dr bumm, and i killed him with 1900dps with an affli spec (fullrota, including coa and immolate), but without pet....
With a destrospec i tried it including BD and without. The differences were not that big, During the fight i peaked out 1600dps, until i killed him it sank to 1480dps because of the use of many lifetabs (average of many tries). Destro without pet too, i wanted to check the dmg of the wl itself.
Destro gains maybe 50dps more, when both specs are using pets (felhunter 130dps, imp 180+critbuff), but in sum Affli has the greater potential.
But with enough critluck, a destro certainly knocks out an affli (which has additional problems with fallin off dots and big lag issue) in short fights. But it is luck, and that is why i prefer basicly affli, which produces constant dps.
In the average of all bossfights/tries, an affli should be able to achieve more dmg.
As affli is a complex spec (fights like kj should be horror) demo should be actual a good compromiss:
It is not prone to lags, rotas or clear view as an affli is. I think this is the cause, why demos are getting such a good average in more than one bossfight.
Okay, since everyone gauges dps by brutallus - my brutallus spec was 2/3/56 (with 2pts in backdraft, only conflagged once while moving) with the following priority queue (rotations are bad) - chaos bolt, immolate curse of agony, incinerate.
I was able to pull about 3200dps on the kill, so I'm not sure how people are struggling to break 2200. Granted, I have sunwell gear and such and used a flamecap and a haste potion (not during hero for the haste, as my spells would clip since I was at 435 haste, now at 475 haste rating). I may drop haste in favor of dmg - but there really isn't an easy way to do it so I may have to live with things or swap my trinket from skull to hex shrunken head for better dmg stacking. Not entirely sure yet.
But yeah, 3200 dps on Brutallus as 2/3/56. My only glyph is improved imp.
Do you have a WWS parse of that fight?
The problem with most fights, even including Brutallus, is that they are so short, the biggest factor is RNG. Most locks who go over 3000dps on brutallus, post 3.0, have a ridiculously high crit rate in their combat log parse. Upwards of 60+ %. I'm willing to bet that your 3200dps was because of a higher-than-your-gear gives crit rate for the fight. Again these short fights are terrible for measuring anything, particularly for warlocks as you mentioned. We have no huge cooldowns to blow, so our dps outcome is determined by RNG.
10/20/08, 3:56 PM
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