The problem with most fights, even including Brutallus, is that they are so short, the biggest factor is RNG. Most locks who go over 3000dps on brutallus, post 3.0, have a ridiculously high crit rate in their combat log parse. Upwards of 60+ %. I'm willing to bet that your 3200dps was because of a higher-than-your-gear gives crit rate for the fight. Again these short fights are terrible for measuring anything, particularly for warlocks as you mentioned. We have no huge cooldowns to blow, so our dps outcome is determined by RNG.
53% crit rate. In my brutallus gear ( I drop things like boar's speed for sure footed), I have ~40% destro crit rate before buffs. This is actually a lower crit rate then I should have had (10 from winter's chill, 5 from moonkin aura, and 3 from the pally/shaman thing, so 58% crit rate on paper, I performed worse). That doesn't even include empowered imp buffs. I dropped a bunch of crit and pushed my haste closer to 500 for experimentation.
You'll notice my imp dps isn't included cause wws didn't parse it for whatever reason (but included my 26 empowered imp buffs). But yeah, it also somehow says I only did 4 chaos bolts which is obviously wrong - but my recount and sw-stats both reported over 3200dps with the same crit rates, etc - so wws is just really omitting data which lowers my parse, but yeah - over 3200. We also had a fairly slow kill due to mannoroth being a PoS lately and lag creating issues.
Hunter pets wouldn't even attack during that brutallus lowering hunter dps a lot, slowing our kill, and not giving ferocious inspiration out too . So yeah, a longer fight but still valid for warlock dps. We also left our prot pally in to heal so we had like, 7 healers and another person that was sitting there useless since well, we didn't really care cause everythings so easy (and he needed loot off brut).
Last edited by nikitabanana : 10/28/08 at 12:06 PM.
53% crit rate. In my brutallus gear ( I drop things like boar's speed for sure footed), I have ~40% destro crit rate before buffs. This is actually a lower crit rate then I should have had (10 from winter's chill, 5 from moonkin aura, and 3 from the pally/shaman thing, so 58% crit rate on paper, I performed worse). That doesn't even include empowered imp buffs. I dropped a bunch of crit and pushed my haste closer to 500 for experimentation.
You'll notice my imp dps isn't included cause wws didn't parse it for whatever reason (but included my 26 empowered imp buffs). But yeah, it also somehow says I only did 4 chaos bolts which is obviously wrong - but my recount and sw-stats both reported over 3200dps with the same crit rates, etc - so wws is just really omitting data which lowers my parse, but yeah - over 3200. We also had a fairly slow kill due to mannoroth being a PoS lately and lag creating issues.
Hunter pets wouldn't even attack during that brutallus lowering hunter dps a lot, slowing our kill, and not giving ferocious inspiration out too . So yeah, a longer fight but still valid for warlock dps. We also left our prot pally in to heal so we had like, 7 healers and another person that was sitting there useless since well, we didn't really care cause everythings so easy (and he needed loot off brut).
That would be like 3500 dps if it counted the imp...outstanding! Good tip on the boot enchant, I'm gonna have to pick that up. Haste pot too...looking at it now, 400 haste is definitely better than 150dmg & 2% crit. Any other tips to share with the recent changes?
I had it not work for my imp (though the other lock was fine) and I had it not work for my Doomguard (15 minute enslave, thought I would give it a try). I stood by the wagon, and the other lock was by the tree. We go back in tonight so I am going to try a bunch of different ideas. (I am the raid leader so I can make my raid sit around till my pet isnt bugged. lol.)
Pulled just shy of 3100 DPS last week's Brutallus in AoEwell as 0/46/15 Felguard (Brut WWS: here) note: I did ~2440 DPS while my pet did ~650. After reading about the success that some people here had experienced with it I decided to give it a shot, and for the most part I was thoroughly pleased with it (it does perform poorly on some fights). On Brut (and all of the other fights) I simply kept Agony/Corruption up and spammed Shadowbolt. I could've saved 3 globals and likely have broken the 3100 DPS mark by using Doom instead of Agony, but I wanted to test Agony's damage in a raid situation in relation to Doom. I used Demonic Empowerment only at the start of an encounter or while I was moving.
My crit rate was 46% on Brut, which is right at my crit in a normal raid situation. With my gear and AI/Kings/Mark I'm around 27% to crit + 10% from Imp Scorch + 6% from our Moonkin + 3% from our Ret Paladin = 46%.
53% crit rate. In my brutallus gear ( I drop things like boar's speed for sure footed), I have ~40% destro crit rate before buffs. This is actually a lower crit rate then I should have had (10 from winter's chill, 5 from moonkin aura, and 3 from the pally/shaman thing, so 58% crit rate on paper, I performed worse). That doesn't even include empowered imp buffs. I dropped a bunch of crit and pushed my haste closer to 500 for experimentation.
You'll notice my imp dps isn't included cause wws didn't parse it for whatever reason (but included my 26 empowered imp buffs). But yeah, it also somehow says I only did 4 chaos bolts which is obviously wrong - but my recount and sw-stats both reported over 3200dps with the same crit rates, etc - so wws is just really omitting data which lowers my parse, but yeah - over 3200. We also had a fairly slow kill due to mannoroth being a PoS lately and lag creating issues.
Hunter pets wouldn't even attack during that brutallus lowering hunter dps a lot, slowing our kill, and not giving ferocious inspiration out too . So yeah, a longer fight but still valid for warlock dps. We also left our prot pally in to heal so we had like, 7 healers and another person that was sitting there useless since well, we didn't really care cause everythings so easy (and he needed loot off brut).
I see 12 chaos bolts on it, you're looking at 4 non-crits.
53% crit rate. In my brutallus gear ( I drop things like boar's speed for sure footed), I have ~40% destro crit rate before buffs. This is actually a lower crit rate then I should have had (10 from winter's chill, 5 from moonkin aura, and 3 from the pally/shaman thing, so 58% crit rate on paper, I performed worse). That doesn't even include empowered imp buffs. I dropped a bunch of crit and pushed my haste closer to 500 for experimentation.
According to the Parse, you only Conflaged once ... is that a parse error? Or did you just pretty much drop conflag out of your rotation? And if so, then it would be something like: Curse->CB->Immo->Incinx7 ... CB / Curse on Cooldowns after that?
I have been running Felguard / Ruin and it's been very competitive, but am ready to try destro again, now that things have settled down a bit. I likewise was not able to get my Felguard to attack, even if I re-summoned him. I did not try pre-positioning him yet.
According to the Parse, you only Conflaged once ... is that a parse error? Or did you just pretty much drop conflag out of your rotation? And if so, then it would be something like: Curse->CB->Immo->Incinx7 ... CB / Curse on Cooldowns after that?
I have been running Felguard / Ruin and it's been very competitive, but am ready to try destro again, now that things have settled down a bit. I likewise was not able to get my Felguard to attack, even if I re-summoned him. I did not try pre-positioning him yet.
I conflagged at 1%. I removed conflag and corruption out entirely. I'll mix conflag back in once ruin affects it but right now it's a dps loss. Corruption is kinda a break even sort of thing but it ends up being a dps loss since it's the worst dps/dpm return. It gets maybe 20% more molten core uptime at the cost of more lifetaps, subpar dps, and a gcd. Not really worth it.
It was CB/Curse/Immolate/Incineratexwhatever til anything was up. I play based on a priority queue, not a set rotation.
Originally Posted by Trickykid
I see 12 chaos bolts on it, you're looking at 4 non-crits.
I apparently fail at reading. Good call. I forgot to pull down the cb tab and in my rush to reply, forgot to >.<.
Unfortunatly I have exactly the same problem and summoning the puppy inside the room didn't fix it. What worked for me was sending the pet in exactly at the pull, 1 sec later and it won't move. Open for other suggestions how to fix this.
I had similar issues at one point before patch, when I was using succy in a threat-capped group. Sometimes she would just take a couple of steps forward and then turn back, instead of obeying the attack command. I did manage to get her to attack by pushing the attack button like I was casting shadowbolt. Every petattack moved her a bit forward, until she finally started attacking, at which point things were all right again. It was doable, but so annoying I just sacced her after a while and chilled on the damage.
The pet issue is easily avoided, I was testing this last night, today I will go in and make a picture of where it happens. But basically if you are standing on the side close to the ramp to twins your pet will just bug out, happens to all pets including vanity pets, if you move closer to brut (close to the box of death) pets will work fine. You don’t need to resummon them, just move closer and wait and after about 10s they will behave like normal.
That is strange as mine was exactly on the box of death when it stood still. It didn't run and turn back, it just didn't do anything.
But since it's a bug, I'm sure it will be fixed and if not, it's only 2 more weeks. I am mostly happy that I'm not the only one who's having this
With every fight being only a fraction of the time they used to be, 0/51/10 has been the spec I'm seeing the best results with. Having Meta to pop with Bloodlust/Heroism is a great boost in dps. In addition, Demonic Pact is a nice raid buff and Demonic Empowerment being taken on the GCD is even more of a plus. While my demo talents stay consistant, in destro I'm testing the differences in dps between spec'ing 5/5 Imp SB and 5/5 Bane vs. 5/5 Bane 3/3 MC and 2/3 Cataclysm. CoD > Corr > Immolate > Incinerate/SB spam (depending on destro talents) is my sequence. Like posted a few pages back, Meta > Demon Charge (if not already in melee) > Immolation Aura > normal rotation once Bloodlust/Heroism is cast. Questions to the community are as such:
1.) Is Imp SB increasing damage to DoT's as tooltip implies? In my last test this was not the case, but it has been a while and it may have been changed.
2.) Uptime of Imp SB vs. MC? Raid buffed I'm assuming Imp SB with a rotation of CoD > Corr > Immolate (worth cast time in this rotation?) > SB wins out over MC with a rotation of CoD > Corr > Immolate > Incinerate. That is just an assumption though, so I am curious to see if anyone already has this tested.
53% crit rate. In my brutallus gear ( I drop things like boar's speed for sure footed), I have ~40% destro crit rate before buffs. This is actually a lower crit rate then I should have had (10 from winter's chill, 5 from moonkin aura, and 3 from the pally/shaman thing, so 58% crit rate on paper, I performed worse). That doesn't even include empowered imp buffs. I dropped a bunch of crit and pushed my haste closer to 500 for experimentation.
You'll notice my imp dps isn't included cause wws didn't parse it for whatever reason (but included my 26 empowered imp buffs). But yeah, it also somehow says I only did 4 chaos bolts which is obviously wrong - but my recount and sw-stats both reported over 3200dps with the same crit rates, etc - so wws is just really omitting data which lowers my parse, but yeah - over 3200. We also had a fairly slow kill due to mannoroth being a PoS lately and lag creating issues.
Hunter pets wouldn't even attack during that brutallus lowering hunter dps a lot, slowing our kill, and not giving ferocious inspiration out too . So yeah, a longer fight but still valid for warlock dps. We also left our prot pally in to heal so we had like, 7 healers and another person that was sitting there useless since well, we didn't really care cause everythings so easy (and he needed loot off brut).
I see your armory at 20% paper doll crit (which is 43% raid + talents) and 475 haste. Is that the gear you used in this WWS or was there more crit for the 2900 DPS no pet?
(Nice healing helm by the way. The new stat condensing has made for some wacky gear choices. I'm using healing shoulders and a healing trinket myself.)
Also, I agree with your rotation, I don't see conflag being worth it. Even with ruin affecting it, it won't be much of a DPS upgrade. Given it's a small upgrade, what's the opportunity cost of those talent points? Consider your build, you could drop points in backdraft/conflag/imp. immo for 3/3 Cataclysm and affliction talents, like suppression or something. (At 80 if you want imp. life tap, demonic aegis, and chaos bolt you will need to.)
Sure those talents aren't HUGE, but we're basing this off the premise that neither is Conflag/Backdraft.
And another argument against it is the same you made against corruption, mana. Conflag/Backdraft increases your mana consumption by at least as much as weaving corruption in does, meaning more life taps, meaning less DPS.
Originally Posted by Dramah
1.) Is Imp SB increasing damage to DoT's as tooltip implies? In my last test this was not the case, but it has been a while and it may have been changed.
2.) Uptime of Imp SB vs. MC? Raid buffed I'm assuming Imp SB with a rotation of CoD > Corr > Immolate (worth cast time in this rotation?) > SB wins out over MC with a rotation of CoD > Corr > Immolate > Incinerate. That is just an assumption though, so I am curious to see if anyone already has this tested.
1) No, that was changed in Beta and has been confirmed to be working as intended. ISB is not meant to increase dot damage.
2) Depends on your crit rate. MC uptime with just CoA is 60%. ISB uptime with 45% crit (28% + raid buffs, just a number I pulled out of my ass) is 91%. With 30% crit it's 76%.
Haven't really done much testing but i was liking the look of 0/21/50, getting demonic sacrafice over chaos bolt. But by the sounds of it everyones pretty cut and dry on the chaos bolt empowered imp thing. How does it match up? I guess the simplicity of Curse of doom ---> Immolate ----> incinerate spam ---> Conflag rinse repeat looked pretty nice
Does 2/2 Imp Felhunter make it a better mana battery than the Imp for Affliction 'locks now.
I'm very interested to see the math behind this (regen and total mana pool). One might consider looking at Imp vs. 0/2, 1/2, 2/2 Imp Felhunter, with and without autocasts (except Shadow Bite). I'll be taking Imp Felhunter eventually on the road to 80, but I'm curious to see if it's worth it to respec to include it at 70, or to take in the early 70s, or leave it till late in the game.
Does 2/2 Imp Felhunter make it a better mana battery than the Imp for Affliction 'locks now.
Yes, but it's a weaker dps pet, and there's no real reason to take or use Dark Pact so it doesn't matter.
As far as Demonic Sacrifice vs deep destruction, the basic argument is that your imp, by itself, will be able to cover the 10% difference; Chaos Bolt and the Empowered Imp buff will each contribute another 3-5% or so at level 80 (very rough estimations; Chaos Bolt is not as good at 70) so deep destruction comes out ahead. Also, as it's being discussed above, you would be using CoA instead of CoD and I'd bet against the survival of the current conflag-backdraft mechanics.
Yes, but it's a weaker dps pet, and there's no real reason to take or use Dark Pact so it doesn't matter.
As far as Demonic Sacrifice vs deep destruction, the basic argument is that your imp, by itself, will be able to cover the 10% difference; Chaos Bolt and the Empowered Imp buff will each contribute another 3-5% or so at level 80 (very rough estimations; Chaos Bolt is not as good at 70) so deep destruction comes out ahead. Also, as it's being discussed above, you would be using CoA instead of CoD and I'd bet against the survival of the current conflag-backdraft mechanics.
I'm actually curious about how they compare in a grinding/ leveling scenario as heavy Affliction.
Phase-shifted Imp vs. a Felhunter set to Defensive, only Shadow Bite on autocast.
I figured someone here might have done the math already.
Yes, but it's a weaker dps pet, and there's no real reason to take or use Dark Pact so it doesn't matter.
What do you mean it's a weaker dps pet? Shadow bite makes it the best dmg pet for affliction atm imo.
I didn't take the imp felhunter and dark pact yet. There are at 70 too many other talents that boost your damage way more and improved life tap gives me enough mana to last with for a while. It is harder on the healers but since everything got nerfed big time, that is not really an issue.
What do you mean it's a weaker dps pet? Shadow bite makes it the best dmg pet for affliction atm imo.
I didn't take the imp felhunter and dark pact yet. There are at 70 too many other talents that boost your damage way more and improved life tap gives me enough mana to last with for a while. It is harder on the healers but since everything got nerfed big time, that is not really an issue.
Fortunately for us, it isn't really up for debate or opinion. The Spreadsheet will show you exactly the DPS value of every pet.
In a Haunt spec it shows Felhunter at 155DPS and the Imp at 209 DPS for me. This is not including the potential use of Dark Pact.
In my Improved Empowered Imp spec it shows the Felhunter at 150 DPS and the Imp at 391 DPS on the top end.[1]
There are also some encounters where using a Melee pet involves more micromanagement than you may want. The Imp is ranged and can be Popielled[2].
I'm in 2pT4, 2pT5, CSD active. Some trinket swapping but otherwise pretty static gear-wise.
Life Tap will probably go to around 4k/tap in naxx10/25 pve gear, if you take a few of the spirit pieces, raid buffed. My premade on beta, half pvp, half heroic/naxx10/naxx25 is LTing for 3.6k+ with Imp LT. Really don't see the use of 1 TP on Dark Pact. A full mana bar will also be around 20k.
You made me curious
I've tested my imp and puppy on a test dummy lvl 70. My imp did come out higher at dps yet it did about 5 k dmg less in 5 minutes because it ran oom and just stood there. So when it casts it is great, problem is that it doesn't cast the whole time. I must admit I don't have imp imp atm but if I count 30% extra dmg for the imp, it comes out just a tiny bit higher, but very close to the puppy.
I tried to check your spec, but saw you respecced to destro. Can you post the spec you did this raid with so I can compare it to mine? 56/0/5 Tbh I don't really see which talents I should drop to take the imp imp and make it worth it, especially if the imp and puppy are very close, I could use the talentpoints better to boost my own dps.
I'm actually curious about how they compare in a grinding/ leveling scenario as heavy Affliction.
Phase-shifted Imp vs. a Felhunter set to Defensive, only Shadow Bite on autocast.
I figured someone here might have done the math already.
I'll second this. I'm very curious to see how this works out. With both untalented imp and felhunter, I think I'm getting more mana back on the third DP from the imp than the felhunter.
I tried to check your spec, but saw you respecced to destro. Can you post the spec you did this raid with so I can compare it to mine? 56/0/5 Tbh I don't really see which talents I should drop to take the imp imp and make it worth it, especially if the imp and puppy are very close, I could use the talentpoints better to boost my own dps.
I don't know who you're talking to, but if you're asking me, I was CB/Backdraft spec'ed in that WWS (as the parse would show you if you look at what I was casting).
I ran the difference in spreadsheet and posted my DPS figures from that. The spreadsheet closely resembles reality for me when it comes to pet DPS. And with the Improved Soul Leech in Destruction you're constantly dumping more mana onto your pet. You don't have that as Affliction.
I may try a Haunt spec tonight and see how badly I do at it and I'll use the Felhunter. I am leaning towards trying this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Okay, I did the "back nine" of Black Temple last night as Affliction with some interesting results.
My armory is currently correct in terms of gear and spec though I may tune it a bit. I believe I had T4 shoulders on for Bloodboil but swapped on my Mantle of the Elven Kings after that. I used a Spellstone but may change that up for Superior Wizard Oil next and see if it makes more sense. The Spreadsheet is a little pessimistic.
I used Felhunter on almost all pulls (I may have on all), and volunteered to do CoE all night.
In my opinion, the Felhunter is a terrible choice for 25-mans. I can see it being very valuable in a 5-man or 10-man if we don't have Int or Spirit buffs, but the Imp's DPS is much better and is ranged so I don't have to babysit it nearly as much. If I'm going to have a pet doing anything active, it will be the Imp. Even untalented the Imp does more damage in the spreadsheet and I'm inclined to believe it.
I didn't need Dark Pact. At all. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd use it except in a few circumstances as Mana utilization is much less of an issue now and I have a lot of health coming in from Siphon Life and Haunt.
I had literally never played this spec before other than on a target dummy just to get used to seeing more stuff bouncing up and down in Class Timer. I really like Class Timer but it re-sorts things when I'm using combination bars so I may break that out into Target and Player and Focus again to prevent the confusion.
It is much more chaotic than playing Destruction or Demonology builds and there are large spaces for you to screw up. Threat management can be problematic due to the nature of DoT effects building and boiling for the duration, so that Improved Drain Soul is important.
Eradication is pretty amazing. During a Bloodlust/Heroism when Eradication procs my Shadow Bolts were .9 seconds to cast. This also had a chilling side effect of turning my cast rotations into Guitar Hero. It added a completely different element to my play that I wasn't really anticipating. I also had difficulty at times realizing something had fallen off -- Siphon Life falls off my radar for example.
I gave Immolate a low priority on uptime though I think this was the wrong thing to do. It has a higher damage-per-cast-time than most of my other spells so I should have been more vigilant, but when I was wearing 2pT4 earlier in the evening I was concerned about "wasting" the spelldmg bonus on the fire buff instead of the shadow buff and then didn't make the full transition in my head that it was "safer" to use Immolate more.
On AOE pulls, Seed of Corruption hit a lot harder in Demonology builds. Since Black Temple is now mostly AOE pulls I felt a bit underutilized on those pulls though I still contributed nicely.
I need to do better at "Embracing" things and doing my Haunt applications. I should always be casting a Shadow Bolt first, then Haunt, than pour on my DoTs, but I didn't always do that. I also need to work on clipping though most of the time I was moving when I did that just because I didn't need to lifetap. I also have ADD and would move if I was in a pile on Council mainly because I wanted to minimize the change that AoE would cause healing issues.
I'm going to tune the spec a bit. I wish I could have been tossing up CoA all night instead just to see the top-end, but overall I'm pretty happy to experiment with this and variations.
10/28/08, 12:01 PM
. So yeah, a longer fight but still valid for warlock dps. We also left our prot pally in to heal so we had like, 7 healers and another person that was sitting there useless since well, we didn't really care cause everythings so easy (and he needed loot off brut).
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