PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 157

Sidewalk · 10/31/08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Emolate

It added a completely different element to my play that I wasn't really anticipating. I also had difficulty at times realizing something had fallen off -- Siphon Life falls off my radar for example.

Try switching to DoTimer and make sure "GHOST" is turned on and set for a decent amount of time. Ghost bars are grayed out versions of the DoT that fell off. This makes it so you don't have to figure out which buff just ended, you see it in gray. I usually set my timer for 5 seconds iirc.

• KingSpeedy · 10/31/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Emolate

In my opinion, the Felhunter is a terrible choice for 25-mans. I can see it being very valuable in a 5-man or 10-man if we don't have Int or Spirit buffs, but the Imp's DPS is much better and is ranged so I don't have to babysit it nearly as much. If I'm going to have a pet doing anything active, it will be the Imp. Even untalented the Imp does more damage in the spreadsheet and I'm inclined to believe it.

Don't completely disregard the spirit bonus. The likelihood of having a Discipline Priest in a 25man is pretty low, and 64 spirit (untalented at 80) to the raid probably outweighs the minor dps increase you'd have from the imp over the puppy. Also though it doesn't happen often, having an automatic dispel via Devour can come in handy too, in addition to the extra silence.

• Emolate · 10/31/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by KingSpeedy

Don't completely disregard the spirit bonus. The likelihood of having a Discipline Priest in a 25man is pretty low, and 64 spirit (untalented at 80) to the raid probably outweighs the minor dps increase you'd have from the imp over the puppy. Also though it doesn't happen often, having an automatic dispel via Devour can come in handy too, in addition to the extra silence.

I would like some confirmation on this observation:

The Fel Intellect aura was not active if I had Arcane Intellect courtesy of a Mage. Regardless of any Spirit buff I may or may not have had. I didn't take the time to see if I was receiving benefit of the Spirit buff regardless of the status of the Icon in my buff bars due to other raid buffs being in play -- I still don't know if I fully understand the entirety of what stacks and what doesn't.

From what I could gather, I wasn't getting the Spirit buff from the Felhunter when I had Arcane Intellect. I would enjoy being wrong about that, and I'm sorry I didn't dig deeper on that. As it happens, I had access to Improved DS as well but didn't have it active when I did my click-off test.[1]

You are absolutely correct however that the Felhunter does have some use to it, but the reason I said in a 25-man it may be irrelevant is because my raids usually have a Discipline priest and plenty of Mages. In a 5-man without a Priest or Mage, or even in some 10-mans, I could forsee the Imp being more valuable in terms of DPS and function (though it seems like we're out of the woods of Blood Pact making all the difference).

Devour is handy, though most bosses and adds are immune to the Spell Lock (Priestesses on Solarian, Malande in Council) with one notable exception being Reliquary of Souls.

(As an aside, I think anything that can be Kick'ed should be able to be Spell Locked. I am not sure why there is a discrepancy.)

Edit:

[1] I didn't have Improved DS yet and I didn't have Arcane Intellect. I had a Fel Intelligence aura (I use sbf for my buff frames). I got Arcane Intellect and lost my Fel Intelligence Aura. I took this to mean I no longer had the INT or SPI benefit but my paperdoll at that point had a lot of green from other sources -- such as Blessing of Kings, and I didn't want to be That Guy™ asking for rebuffs because I clicked everything off. I wasn't thinking in advance, as I should have done so. I'll leave myself spec'ed as I am today and try to gather more information.

Troffel · 10/31/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sidewalk

Try switching to DoTimer and make sure "GHOST" is turned on and set for a decent amount of time. Ghost bars are grayed out versions of the DoT that fell off. This makes it so you don't have to figure out which buff just ended, you see it in gray. I usually set my timer for 5 seconds iirc.

First, I tried to use the ghost timers from DoTimer as well, but I experienced that by using the addon TimerButtons I perform much better, since I spot a missing dot faster.

Complementary, I am looking for a replacement of one of the two non-working addons Ripped or TrainingWheels. Does anybody know such an addon?

Discobiscuit · 10/31/08, 5:02 PM

Sorry to jump into the middle of the discussion, but I'm curious. Has it been proven that using the affliction tree for a shadowbolt spam build is bad dps? Currently I'm spec'd fire for pvp, but for raids I use a not-so-common 38/0/23 build. Maybe I'm boring and not smart enough to utilize other specs to their full potential, but I enjoy being in charge of CoE, casting corruption, and then spamming shadowbolts. It's not very complicated. My gear is probably average pre-hyjal/BT gear, but I do what I can with crafted items and badge gear. At level 80, I'm really excited about putting enough points into the affliction tree to get 5/5 shadow mastery, and then putting the other points into the destruction tree to fill up 5/5 shadow and flame. I think this spec is going to work out really well, and will be similar to the pre-wotlk lock dps that we were used to before.

Nicarras · 10/31/08, 5:32 PM

if you want to CoE/Corr/SB, then spec 0/41/20 right now and do some good damage

Discobiscuit · 10/31/08, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Nicarras

if you want to CoE/Corr/SB, then spec 0/41/20 right now and do some good damage

Well I just tried that spec out and my dps actually went down from roughly 1.3k dps to 1.1k dps. What is the rotation you use with that spec? I'd send the felguard in, pop demonic empowerment, CoE, corruption, and then spam shadowbolt until corruption needed to be reapplied. Does the felguard benefit from raid buffs? This might bring up the dps a little bit, but I was really hoping for more of an improvement.

With my previous spec 38/0/23, my corruption benefited from shadow mastery and empowered corruption, along with shadow embrace. Plus, nightfall gave me an 8% chance to get a free shadowbolt with the corruption glyph, instead of just 4%. But most of all, I think my previous spec excels from having eradication proc every so often. I like having 3/3 points in malediction, too, for an added 6% increase in spell damage. Instead of using felguard, i usually just keep my felhunter out. I've never actually used it to dps, but i should try it out.

Am I doing something wrong with the /0/41/20 build you recommended?

Vindra · 11/01/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Discobiscuit

Well I just tried that spec out and my dps actually went down from roughly 1.3k dps to 1.1k dps. What is the rotation you use with that spec? I'd send the felguard in, pop demonic empowerment, CoE, corruption, and then spam shadowbolt until corruption needed to be reapplied. Does the felguard benefit from raid buffs? This might bring up the dps a little bit, but I was really hoping for more of an improvement.

With my previous spec 38/0/23, my corruption benefited from shadow mastery and empowered corruption, along with shadow embrace. Plus, nightfall gave me an 8% chance to get a free shadowbolt with the corruption glyph, instead of just 4%. But most of all, I think my previous spec excels from having eradication proc every so often. I like having 3/3 points in malediction, too, for an added 6% increase in spell damage. Instead of using felguard, i usually just keep my felhunter out. I've never actually used it to dps, but i should try it out.

Am I doing something wrong with the /0/41/20 build you recommended?

Is this in a solo situation or a group/raid? A 0/40/21 lock will benefit more from a full set of raid buffs than a 57/0/5 lock will, due to scaling. Try using the imp instead of the felgaurd and cast immo/incins for the MD fire bonus. The imp is doing more damage than felgaurds in most builds right now as well. The imp empower is also worth more than the Felgaurd empower on or off the GCD.

Nicarras · 11/02/08, 3:29 AM

Originally Posted by Discobiscuit

Well I just tried that spec out and my dps actually went down from roughly 1.3k dps to 1.1k dps. What is the rotation you use with that spec? I'd send the felguard in, pop demonic empowerment, CoE, corruption, and then spam shadowbolt until corruption needed to be reapplied. Does the felguard benefit from raid buffs? This might bring up the dps a little bit, but I was really hoping for more of an improvement.

With my previous spec 38/0/23, my corruption benefited from shadow mastery and empowered corruption, along with shadow embrace. Plus, nightfall gave me an 8% chance to get a free shadowbolt with the corruption glyph, instead of just 4%. But most of all, I think my previous spec excels from having eradication proc every so often. I like having 3/3 points in malediction, too, for an added 6% increase in spell damage. Instead of using felguard, i usually just keep my felhunter out. I've never actually used it to dps, but i should try it out.

Am I doing something wrong with the /0/41/20 build you recommended?

On the risk of getting warned for grammar I'll attempt to answer your question.

When you are doing this testing, where exactly are you testing it? Kara? Sunwell? 1.1/1.3 seems low for anyone unless you are in blues or something. In a raid situation fully buffed the felguard, assuming you checked, gets a lot of group buffs and some of them you only get if hes out before the buffing begins. I'm not really sure how the targeting dummies work out with the spec, but I only use the dummies as something to attack to test rotations, not something I DPS to get accurate numbers against. Raid buffs add too many variables into equations to leave them out when you do something like test on a dummy in town.

One of the problems in your build is Shadowburn, which has no PVE increase and you'd be better off putting the points into Grim Reach. You also list all the buffs that your talents, which is great, but reading the talents off, and then seeing how they apply in a fully buffed raid setting is different. I have this strange feeling like you are just doing dmg on the target dummy, which is decieving.

I had someone in my raid with me last week and they did about 2700 dps on Brutallus the spec I mentioned, and I did 2700 as the dest spec I talked about. What rotation are you using and in what environment. We can help you more with more details.

tusaki · 11/02/08, 5:24 AM

Originally Posted by Troffel

First, I tried to use the ghost timers from DoTimer as well, but I experienced that by using the addon TimerButtons I perform much better, since I spot a missing dot faster.

Complementary, I am looking for a replacement of one of the two non-working addons Ripped or TrainingWheels. Does anybody know such an addon?

I changed Ripped and added haunt to it, it was pretty easy.

Open notepad and make the following changes...

add the spell to RippedSpells.lua.
(i put it below unstable affliction)

['Haunt'] = { debuff=12 , spellIds={59161}},

add the spell to BuiltinStrategies\Warlock.lua

           priorities = {
                [1] = L['Curse'],
		[2] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt'],
                [3] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Corruption'],
                [4] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Unstable Affliction'],
                [5] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Siphon Life'],
                [6] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Immolate'],
                [7] = Ripped.spells.localNames['Shadow Bolt'], -- keep this last.
            },
            enabled_spells = {
                [L['Curse']] = true,
		[Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt']] = true,
                [Ripped.spells.localNames['Unstable Affliction']] = true,
                [Ripped.spells.localNames['Corruption']] = true,
                [Ripped.spells.localNames['Siphon Life']] = true,
                [Ripped.spells.localNames['Shadow Bolt']] = true,
                [Ripped.spells.localNames['Immolate']] = false,
            }

(change all max priorities to 6 inststead of 5...)

                   use_haunt = {
                        type = 'toggle',
                        name = 'Use Haunt',
                        desc = 'If true, uses Haunt',
                        get = function(info) return RippedDefaultWarlockStrategy:IsSpellEnabled(Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt']) end,
                        set = function(info, value) RippedDefaultWarlockStrategy:SetSpellEnabled(Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt'], value) end,
                    },
		    haunt_priority = {
                        type = 'range',
                        name = "Haunt",
                        arg = "Haunt",
                        desc = "Priority for Haunt.",
                        min = 1,
                        max = 6,
                        step = 1,
                        get = function(info) return RippedDefaultWarlockStrategy:GetPriority(Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt']) end,
                        set = function(info, value) return RippedDefaultWarlockStrategy:SetPriority(Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt'], value) end,
                        disabled = function(info) return not RippedDefaultWarlockStrategy:IsSpellEnabled(Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt']) end,
                    },

                    if spell == Ripped.spells.localNames['Unstable Affliction'] or spell == Ripped.spells.localNames['Immolate'] or spell ==  Ripped.spells.localNames['Haunt'] then
                        -- UA and Immolate and Haunt has a cast time before the debuff is applied
                        nextTime = nextTime - self:GetSpellCastTime(state, spell)
                    end

voila. I dont think ripped knows about the glyphed CoA, but you can change that too.

for those who don't know ripped, it basically suggests the next few spells to cast as affliction to minimize dot downtime and maximize dps. Just like facemelter does for shadow priests. You can change the spellpriorities etc etc.

Blacksen · 11/02/08, 12:46 PM

Anyone know how accurate this is?

Spell power coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Prikky · 11/02/08, 7:31 PM

Thanks for the code

Edit: something went wrong with the rest of the message:
I updated the .toc file to 30000 instead of 20400 but is this actually really necessary?

Fulgurite · 11/02/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Blacksen

Anyone know how accurate this is?

Spell power coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The warlock coefficients are certainly out of date. It doesn't look like that has been updated for 3.0 yet. For instance, the Shadow and Flame numbers are wrong now that SnF is a simple multiplier.

Originally Posted by tusaki

for those who don't know ripped, it basically suggests the next few spells to cast as affliction to minimize dot downtime and maximize dps. Just like facemelter does for shadow priests. You can change the spellpriorities etc etc.

Wow thanks for the tip! I'm going to check that addon out tonight and see if the Destro side needs work. If I have to change the code for Conflag/Chaos Bolt/whatever I'll post my changes here.

Troffel · 11/03/08, 3:11 AM

@tusaki: Thanks for the advice of changing the addon Ripped.

I made a plugin for the existing addon Ripped from your changes, to have an addon for people, who dare to do the changes by themself: RippedAdvancedWarlockStrategy

I will develop a strategy for (deep) destruction as well. Suggestions for the strategy are always welcomed.

Sidewalk · 11/03/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Troffel

First, I tried to use the ghost timers from DoTimer as well, but I experienced that by using the addon TimerButtons I perform much better, since I spot a missing dot faster.

You spot it faster cause? It's a blank bar instead of a grey bar? I suppose that works. I also sort my dots by what's expiring first so that I have an "order" to recast that is completely obvious at all times. Grey or not, I am casting what is on the top of the list next generally.

The feature list almost looks like a "profile setting" for DoTimer though. Didn't see anything in there you can't do, it's just "preset" some options for you. Ehh ... simpler might be better though. Less stuff to choose from might mean less to screw up :-p

Shodan30 · 11/03/08, 2:09 PM

Hi,

In BC since i raided destruction, I never seriously pursued getting a timbrals. When affliction looked to be viable i raided Magisters Terris until i got one. Well, ive been playing with it a few weeks now and have a few questions:

1) Is there anything that distinguished the proc from a shadowbolt other then the low damage numbers in the log? It is more then a little annoying that i cannot distinguish these two as not only can i not measure proc rates, but it throws off my average damage numbers on shadowbolt dps calculation.

2) Has anyone witnessed timbrals proccing on a pandemic tick and not the original tick? Or on both?

Thanks.

[DRF]Solmyr · 11/03/08, 3:10 PM

Good news:

Corruption's coefficient went from 0.156 to 0.20.
Immolate's coefficient went from 0.13 to 0.20.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Warlock: Corruption and Immolate

turturin · 11/03/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by [DRF]Solmyr

Good news:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Warlock: Corruption and Immolate

I think he's quoting the per tick coefficients. Does anyone know how the DD portion of immolate is impacted by this? Is the dot portion now getting 100% of spellpower over the 5 ticks or am I misinterpreting?

Troffel · 11/03/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sidewalk

You spot it faster cause? It's a blank bar instead of a grey bar? I suppose that works. I also sort my dots by what's expiring first so that I have an "order" to recast that is completely obvious at all times. Grey or not, I am casting what is on the top of the list next generally.
...

It is like I said. If a dot is missing, you see nothing with DoTimer. With TimerButtons you see a blank bar. This reminds me that I have to put this dot on the boss. If five debuffs are running, it is difficult to spot, which debuff is missing. Ghost bars are only there, if there were this dots on the target. After the ghost times vanishes, there is no reminder. If you forgot to hit "Immolate" at the start of the boss fight, there is still no reminder. I agree with a working addon Ripped the reminder is at a different place, so it is only a matter of play style.

If you distribute the dots on multiple targets the addon DoTimer is still very valuable. This is not coverd by TimerButtons nor Ripped either.

smurph98gt · 11/03/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by turturin

I think he's quoting the per tick coefficients. Does anyone know how the DD portion of immolate is impacted by this? Is the dot portion now getting 100% of spellpower over the 5 ticks or am I misinterpreting?

The math sounds right for the dot portion. Immolate was a 65% coefficient before, so it's getting bumped to 100%, and Corr is getting bumped to 120% presumably, and then up to 156% with Empowere Corruption. It'd be nice to know what the DD part of Immolate is however.

PSGarak · 11/03/08, 6:28 PM

Keep in mind, Shadow & Flame is now a multiplier on spell coefficients. There's an outside chance that Empowered Corruption would bring that up to 163.2%. There's an even smaller chance that Empowered Corruption would stack multiplicatively with Everlasting Affliction for 6.8% spell damage per tick, 40.8% over the duration, 204% spell damage total. I highly doubt the second of these scenarios, but the first seems reasonable to expect, since it's just consistency across "Empowered" talents.

turturin · 11/03/08, 6:51 PM

I had asked about the multiplicative consistency (or lack thereof) a page or so back with respect to empowered corruption. Does someone have time to test this? Theorycraft results are highly dependent on us having these coefficient numbers right, espcially since we are now assuming lvl 80 starts at 2K+ spellpower.

Edit: The post i referred to is in our WoTLK thread. As release approaches I'm starting to get the two confused.

Kazuha · 11/03/08, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Keep in mind, Shadow & Flame is now a multiplier on spell coefficients. There's an outside chance that Empowered Corruption would bring that up to 163.2%. There's an even smaller chance that Empowered Corruption would stack multiplicatively with Everlasting Affliction for 6.8% spell damage per tick, 40.8% over the duration, 204% spell damage total. I highly doubt the second of these scenarios, but the first seems reasonable to expect, since it's just consistency across "Empowered" talents.

Neither of these situations come to pass, actually. As of live right now, empowered corruption is behaving like normal, giving each tick 6% of your spellpower, and everlasting affliction is giving each tick 5% of your spellpower.

Testing methodology:
I cast corruption on a training dummy with 966 dmg with all relevant talents, and got corruption ticking 578-579. Corruption with no spellpower ticks for 193, so we get a coefficient range of .398 to .399 per tick, but dividing out by talented increases (1.25*1.03), we get .3094-.310, as desired. This also verifies that corruption on live has a .2 base coefficient (which I verified untalented as well).

dcpwns · 11/04/08, 1:14 PM

Was wondering about affliction rotations when under the effect of bloodlust. I don't change my rotation when under the effect but I know I lose a lot of haste because of the GCD. Was wondering if any experienced lock out there that has run numbers or has been affliction for awhile has any insight i could use.

Shodan30 · 11/04/08, 2:19 PM

dcpwns,

I had some interesting haste stacking effects occur to me last night during a BT run. I think i can suggest something.

I made a macro that contains our most important spells that we will want to get off (castingsequence command) and when i was under the effect of Bloodlust and eradication i would just spam that button because it was insanely fast at spinning through everything. just keep it around on your bar somewhere and be ready to spam it hard (or just switch to full Shadowbolting) when you get the speed.