PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 22

Crepe · 12/06/07, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

Theoretical modeling suggest the increase in ISB uptime wouldn't improve that much, so it's not likely to be very effective.

Yeah. Based on Leulier's calculator, I'm getting from 68% to 81% uptime, with the average being around 75%. So that's about a 13% boost in ISB uptime from going 35->50% crit on one lock compared to the numbers posted above (used another destro at 30%, one UA, and one spriest).

Interestingly enough, going 40% crit on both the destro warlocks give around about the same uptime, 74%. Thus, it may be just as well to spread around the crit "love" and achieve the same results without killing personal DPS. The best way to do this without regearing, of course, would be to bring a crit-enhancing group member, i.e. moonkin, ele shaman, or retadin in the raid. Of course, we already "knew" this from a personal DPS perspective, but now we can calculate its RDPS effects as well.

Arelenda · 12/06/07, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bungle

Shadow damage % boost = 20% * ISB Uptime

Is that completely wrong? Ive looked through a few threads and couldnt find a great deal of info regarding use of ISB, just discussions regarding calculating uptime.

No, that's pretty much correct. It'll increase any damage done as long as it's up by 20%.

rochan · 12/06/07, 1:22 PM

We usually raid with 3-4 destro locks + 2-3 shadow priests. I guess I should tell my boys to stack crit eh LOL.

PSGarak · 12/06/07, 2:40 PM

If two warlocks have the same cast priorities, there's no difference between one stacking 10% crit and both of them stacking 5% crit, in terms of ISB uptime. My intuition is that the second case is better for personal dps but I could be wrong. If you're going to have only one warlock stack crit for ISB, you want to make sure it's the warlock with the highest SB casting measure, so it has more effect on the raid ISB uptime. In general, this means the warlock casting CoD or CoE/CoS, eschewing corruption, and has high haste as well.

An interesting alternative, if you have a high spread of shadow casters, is to stack haste instead of crit. If your three shadow casters are all warlocks with the same crit chance this won't change anything, but if you have two destro locks an aff lock and two shadow priests, it will increase the destro lock's relative contribution to the raid-average ISB proc chance, pushing up the ISB uptime. It also has a positive rather than generally negative effect on the warlock's personal dps. Working out the numbers is a bit more subtle though, and it's much more sensitive to raid composition.

Trickykid · 12/06/07, 2:58 PM

Based on the models I've seen estimating ISB uptime, haste adds much less uptime per point than crit. For anyone interested, the rough models using weighted crit across each shadow member match up to the ISB simulator very closely. I'm still testing different raid-makeups, but that's my prelim results...

Krazen · 12/06/07, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bungle

After doing a ZA where I was the only shadow priest, and I was with a single destruction lock, I found my dps had improved quite a bit compared to normal. When I next did it with a affliction lock, my dps was lower, I concluded that this was due to the fact that even though the maledicted CoS was adding an extra 3%, it was outweighed by the extra ISB uptime from having just me and one destro lock....

This got me thinking, if a lock can increase ISB uptime by 15% then they would increase shadow damage, on average, by 3% whilst at the same time probably doing a decent bit more dps than an affliction lock.. however this is where my thinking may well fall down, as Im just assuming that,

Shadow damage % boost = 20% * ISB Uptime

Is that completely wrong? Ive looked through a few threads and couldnt find a great deal of info regarding use of ISB, just discussions regarding calculating uptime.

Anyway, assuming my theory is roughly correct, and assuming the following,

2 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Affliction lock with 15% crit
1 Shadow priest

I get an ISB uptime of 54% using Lueliers sim (duration of 300s). When I change the setup to,

3 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Shadow Priest

I get an ISB Uptime of 67.5%, an increase of 13.5%, which by my poor math works out to roughly 2.7% more shadow damage on average. So that almost balances out malediction, then on top of that the destruction lock will probably do more dps (They do in my guild, and from reading wws parses and this thread it seems to be the case for others).

Now of course this just applys in certain cases, as if you run with more locks/priests you arent going to get such an uptime boost, and also if theres more than one mob, as you cant bolt more than one at once but you can keep CoS on them all. And of course, CoS also applys to arcane, though in my guild we only have a boomkin that uses arcane atm, who isnt always on raids, and all the mages are fire. So yeah, this is only going to apply in special cases/raid setups, but that aside, what are peoples thoughts on this, is my math completely off the mark?

I believe you are correct. However, affliction also provides Blood pact and Shadow Embrace. The 3% of extra damage malediction provides can be compensated for, while more HP and damage reduction can't be valued so easily.

Bungle · 12/06/07, 6:32 PM

Ah yes, I did neglect those benefits. So I guess it comes down to whether you think the extra dps from a destro lock over an affliction is better or not than 5% reduced boss melee damage and blood pact on a group (assuming your raid setup is similar to mine also so that the ISB uptime gain roughly equals the loss of malediction). The answer to which will vary fight to fight, and your raid composition. In my case, I think we'll just stay with the one affliction guy, simply because he won't be moaning after I ask him to respec

Arelenda · 12/07/07, 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by Bungle

Ah yes, I did neglect those benefits. So I guess it comes down to whether you think the extra dps from a destro lock over an affliction is better or not than 5% reduced boss melee damage and blood pact on a group (assuming your raid setup is similar to mine also so that the ISB uptime gain roughly equals the loss of malediction). The answer to which will vary fight to fight, and your raid composition. In my case, I think we'll just stay with the one affliction guy, simply because he won't be moaning after I ask him to respec

Obviously, fights can be won either way. It's objective. Personally, I see my raid group lose more fights to tank deaths than to us not having enough dps. Granted, we usually wipe to other things, but these are the two factors we're making a tradeoff for. If you're farming Black Temple and Hyjal now, your priorities might shift.

Compendium updated: cleared up a bit of text in the affliction tree, and added Shadow Embrace comments.

Bolche · 12/07/07, 3:33 AM

The other benefit of malediction over an increased ISB uptime, is that is does also increase arcane damage by 2.7%.

◊ Culok · 12/09/07, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

If two warlocks have the same cast priorities, there's no difference between one stacking 10% crit and both of them stacking 5% crit, in terms of ISB uptime.

It's better to have one warlock with high crit and one with low crit than it is to have 2 with medium crit.

To simplify a bit, assume both warlocks cast shadowbolt twice in their spell rotation. This means that ISB will be up if any one of the 4 bolts proc it and will stay up for the max duration.

Two warlocks with 5% crit chance will end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.95^4) = 18.55% of the time

One warlock with 10% crit chance and one with 0% end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.9^2) = 19% of the time.

For a more extreme example, consider a pair of warlocks where one has 25% crit and one with 5% crit with a pair of warlocks both of who have 15% crit.

The pair where one has 25% crit gets you:
1-((0.75^2)*(0.95^2)) = 49.2%

Two with 15% gets you:
1-(0.85^4)+ = 47.8%

Shuko · 12/09/07, 5:14 AM

Originally Posted by lavis

I've always wondered about 40/0/21 spec it definitely requires some nice gear to pull off and would be a interesting spec for a lock first entering bt/hyjal with 4 piece T5 being that you really only use a rotation like CoS > Corruption > SB x7 > Corruption etc.

Does anyone have experience with this spec? And how much DPS could you push out on a fight like Teron Gorefeind where you didn't get ghosted? I really would like to do some theorycrafting on this one! Thanks.

I dont have a log from BT (ill get one tonight), but here are the numbers from Hyjal by a guildie. No damage curse ofc. The spec is for malediction, but with 4xT6 its quite nice.

RWC 1487
Ane 1310
Kaz 1513
Azg 1059

Naj: 1277
Suprem: 1281
Teron: 1205 (No Immo/SL)

SAViOR · 12/09/07, 7:23 PM

Hey there, I enjoy raiding as a 0/21/40 SB-lock and my guild is shortly before clearing raid content.
Since im destruction specced, i badly want/need this 4piece t6-bonus, but before I just throw out my dkp for all 5 pieces I'd like to know what item to use instead of a t6 item. Having 5/5 is pretty useless and there are better items than t6, but which of them is the most improving one?

Has anyone thought of the "perfect" 0/21/40 (Shadow Bolt, Curse of Doom) gear?
(If not, I know what to do tomorrow

)

PS: It's late, I'm German, I hope you don't kill me for building sentences like this

Gumibear · 12/09/07, 8:03 PM

Most people will tell you to get either Leggings of Channeled Elements (my preference) or Vestments of the Sea Witch in place of your 5th piece of tier 6.

• frmorrison · 12/09/07, 8:58 PM

The Illidan Helm is pretty good too, comparing the 3 non-Tier 6 on a 1 on 1 basis with my 40/0/21 spec the Illidan Helm is 2 dps better than the other options over Tier 6 equivalent, although that helm looks strange.

PSGarak · 12/09/07, 9:01 PM

Originally Posted by Culok

It's better to have one warlock with high crit and one with low crit than it is to have 2 with medium crit.

To simplify a bit, assume both warlocks cast shadowbolt twice in their spell rotation. This means that ISB will be up if any one of the 4 bolts proc it and will stay up for the max duration.

Two warlocks with 5% crit chance will end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.95^4) = 18.55% of the time

One warlock with 10% crit chance and one with 0% end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.9^2) = 19% of the time.

For a more extreme example, consider a pair of warlocks where one has 25% crit and one with 5% crit with a pair of warlocks both of who have 15% crit.

The pair where one has 25% crit gets you:
1-((0.75^2)*(0.95^2)) = 49.2%

Two with 15% gets you:
1-(0.85^4)+ = 47.8%

Interesting. It looks like the simplifying assumption in the 1-(1-x)^4 model is that each incoming shadow spell is being modeled as identical independent events can lead to wrong conclusions, especially if the incoming shadow spells come in a predictable order. In a real-world case where they become desynchronized it tends away from your model but it's interesting to note that our previous calculation is really an upper bound on the average rather than a true average.

As shadow casting becomes desynchronized, due to different specs (spriest, aff, destro, demo, destro using CoE) what you'll probably see is over the fight the average will be the 1-(1-x)^4 model, but the distribution will be somewhat periodic, with the upper and lower limits being calculable from your approach.

As far as whether or not you should stack all your crit on one warlock or not, I think the cutting-off point is four shadow casters, for the four ISB charges: if the shadow nukes can be seen as happening in clusters of four a single caster with a higher crit rate will boost the average; if not, you basically revert to the 1-(1-x)^4 model.

galzohar · 12/09/07, 9:22 PM

As far as I understand from lurking theses forums, since damage is calculated when the spell leaves the caster's hands but the debuff is consumed when damage is dealt (correct me if I'm wrong here), 1 charge left on ISB with all warlocks firing a shadowbolt before the 1st one's reaches the target would result in 1 charge applying to all shadowbolts?
Considering at least a certain amount of the shadowbolts will be fired "simultaneously" (as in, 1 leaves the caster's hand when another is in flight) will increase the ISB effect beyond the currently theorycrafted/simulated values, and will add an even more unpredictable variance as how the hell would you determine how often such a thing happens?

Phantasie · 12/09/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

The Illidan Helm is pretty good too, comparing the 3 non-Tier 6 on a 1 on 1 basis with my 40/0/21 spec the Illidan Helm is 2 dps better than the other options over Tier 6 equivalent, although that helm looks strange.

T6 helm w/ the chaotic skyfire diamond.

Go vash robe if you have it. If not, do channeled elements legs.

edit; oops

• frmorrison · 12/09/07, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Phantasie

T6 helm for the chaotic skyfire diamond.

Go vash robe if you have it. If not, do channeled elements legs.

What I meant is if I could have any item in the game, the Illidai Helm is better for dps for me than Vashj robe or Channeled elements (which I have, so I should get T6 helm).

Especially of note is that the Illidan helm has a blue socket to help turn on the CSD metagem, plus get +5 damage for your trouble.

Phantasie · 12/10/07, 2:03 AM

Just for ez comparison sake, pulled this from my spreadsheet. Cowl and Channeled elements are pretty similar, yea you get little more crit and slight on dmg, but channeled has 2 extra sockets. Anywho, guess it really depends on what you do with your sockets and your spec. It's just sad that the T6 robe has that nice goose-egg for crit

..............................................Stam......Int......Hit....Crit......Dmg .....Sockets...................Socket Bonus
Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.....19........46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55........36......16.....32........63.......Meta Yellow.............5 dmg
Vestments of the Sea-Witch.........28........28......27.....31........57.......Yellow Yellow Blue....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.....13........46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.....37........62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
................................................240......157.....94....132......274.. ....8 & Meta

Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.......19......46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.......13......46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.......37......62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
Robe of the Malefic.....................66........29......28........0.......63.......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Cowl of the Illidari High Lord........33........31......21.......47......64.......Meta Blue................5 dmg
................................................256.....153.....100.....116....281... ...8 & Meta

Gloves of the Malefic...................57.......27.......11......19.......46......Yellow.......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55.......36.......16......32.......63......Meta Yellow..............5 dmg
Robe of the Malefic.....................66.......29.......28.......0........63......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45.......22.......21......13.......46......Blue Yellow...............4 dmg
Leggings of Channeled Elements..25.......28.......18......34.......59......Yellow Yellow Blue......5 dmg
...............................................248.....142......94.......98......277. ....10 & Meta

Arelenda · 12/10/07, 4:21 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

As far as I understand from lurking theses forums, since damage is calculated when the spell leaves the caster's hands but the debuff is consumed when damage is dealt (correct me if I'm wrong here), 1 charge left on ISB with all warlocks firing a shadowbolt before the 1st one's reaches the target would result in 1 charge applying to all shadowbolts?
Considering at least a certain amount of the shadowbolts will be fired "simultaneously" (as in, 1 leaves the caster's hand when another is in flight) will increase the ISB effect beyond the currently theorycrafted/simulated values, and will add an even more unpredictable variance as how the hell would you determine how often such a thing happens?

As for the calculations being done at the moment spellcast is completed: it would make sense, it's been reported, and similar frost mechanics are the same. No solid proof though. Not easy to test, too: the window is small enough for lag to be a factor. It is fair to assume it, it is not a stretch. Feel free to test it and post results here.

The other thing you need to realize is that debuff application lags about between 0.5 and 1.2 seconds behind the SB crit. This is not just a visual effect, it doesn't actually start working until that point. This I'm 100% sure of, tested it myself when developing ShadowSeer. It is plain impossible to model it. Spreadsheets should be considered an approximation instead, since they base it on how the mechanics are supposed to work.

You can get reasonably accurate ISB data on ShadowSeer, provided you're close enough to the boss for you to register debuff application events at all times. I'm not sure what exact range is, but it's less than 30yards, and that is not changeable.

SAViOR · 12/10/07, 10:00 AM

So I played around with some gear "sets" and I think I've found the best possible equip for a destruction warlock, casting CoD, SB and Immolate.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Please have a look at it and tell me if I'm wrong, if so. (The other profiles aren't updated, the client doesn't like my WoW anymore^^)

dakalro · 12/10/07, 10:54 AM

You could replace both rings with Spell Haste trash ones though, just need to find 9 hit rating somewhere. According to Leulier's sheet they're a bit better than both rings you used (I used +15 dmg as equiv for the Band proc but really have no idea).
Unfortunately I didn't have time while first going through BT/Hyjal to calc for haste so I just ignored it, but overall it's bracers and 2xrings that provide overall upgrades especially with needing (at least) 2 blue gems to activate CSD so boots/belt will be Naj/Anetheron and 4 pcs T6 being too big of an upgrade to break it with pretty much anything you might think of. I will probably end up using leggings of ce and T6 chest, whenever caster loot starts dropping, long queues for everything atm

, but that's just my prefference, but not like I would ever get to do another Vashj kill.

Also, seems greatstaff only comes close to MH+OH combo when you actually don't need any of the hit on the MH+OH. So if you have to use Nethervoid and Captured Storms for some reason you might as well go for Staff but it won't be best combo just best for the fixed variables in your gear.

Arelenda · 12/10/07, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by SAViOR

So I played around with some gear "sets" and I think I've found the best possible equip for a destruction warlock, casting CoD, SB and Immolate.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Please have a look at it and tell me if I'm wrong, if so. (The other profiles aren't updated, the client doesn't like my WoW anymore^^)

This is pretty much what my ideal set is, yes. 4xT6 is a given, 6% damage on SB is about 120 spelldamage worth of damage. With the set bonus, I'm pretty sure you want to drop fire talents and Immolate.

SAViOR · 12/10/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by dakalro

You could replace both rings with Spell Haste trash ones though, just need to find 9 hit rating somewhere. According to Leulier's sheet they're a bit better than both rings you used (I used +15 dmg as equiv for the Band proc but really have no idea).
Unfortunately I didn't have time while first going through BT/Hyjal to calc for haste so I just ignored it, but overall it's bracers and 2xrings that provide overall upgrades especially with needing (at least) 2 blue gems to activate CSD so boots/belt will be Naj/Anetheron and 4 pcs T6 being too big of an upgrade to break it with pretty much anything you might think of. I will probably end up using leggings of ce and T6 chest, whenever caster loot starts dropping, long queues for everything atm

, but that's just my prefference, but not like I would ever get to do another Vashj kill.

Also, seems greatstaff only comes close to MH+OH combo when you actually don't need any of the hit on the MH+OH. So if you have to use Nethervoid and Captured Storms for some reason you might as well go for Staff but it won't be best combo just best for the fixed variables in your gear.

I made a mistake my rings choice, I added 2 spelldmg for the enchant to ring of ancient knowledge instead of 12 :/
And I already have t6 legs (for 100dkp, thats start for t6 xD) so I will end up asking for SSC raids in the realmforums

But thanks for any critics!
I updated my set, should be perfect now...
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Originally Posted by Arelenda

This is pretty much what my ideal set is, yes. 4xT6 is a given, 6% damage on SB is about 120 spelldamage worth of damage. With the set bonus, I'm pretty sure you want to drop fire talents and Immolate.

I use leuliers spreadsheet and it says Immolate sucks when I'm raidbuffed

Didn't notice since I only used non-buffed stats, thanks.

Cohren · 12/10/07, 3:27 PM

I don't understand why people go for the T6 legs/Robe of the Sea-Witch over T6 Robe/Leggings of Channeled Elements. The extra crit you receive from the T6 Legs/Sea-Witch is negligible in terms of ISB up-keep and DPS wise with the disparity in +dmg between both options, the extra crit will either make T6 legs/Sea-Witch on par(at best) or below T6 robe/Channeled Elements as according to leuliers +dmg>+crit.

What I wonder is where the new Heroic badge wand fits into all of this as with having a blue socket you won't need to re-socket as much to get 2 blue gems for the Chaotic Skyfire.