Antoine

In phase 2 as destro I just don't cast if the shadowbolt will land when deaden is up.

 

dakalro

Well, it's not like you can get 1-shot if you crit with deaden up, 9k-10k max returned and it's easy to see if you have the hp. And while you get a crit stop the next SB cast, there's enough time, though most of the time I just get healed back up instantly, sometimes not even seeing a drop in my hp bar even with an 18k SB crit, but it's still imprinted that I move if I see crit on the screen, just makes it safe.

 

Shai

What also works well in this fight is FG spec, provided you don't have to use a Felhunter for devour and take Intensity. No risk of two-shotting yourself or pulling aggro which allows for constant nuking while the FG tears through the low armored boss and is getting ample healing if you have the T5 bonus.

 

Ammanas

Alright, I'm looking for a little advice. I have used the spreadsheet o crunch some numbers, but am a little skeptical. According to it, crit is not nearly as good for me as damage (still best) and then haste. I'm raiding as 0/21/40 sitting at 1275 damage (with fel armor) 189 hit and 18.67 crit (paperdoll, not counting 5% from devastation). Now, I realize that 1 crit rating gets you far less crit than 1 haste rating gets you haste and that is what is making the results come out like this.

First things first, I realize that hit rating is the most important and I will be hit capped in the next few days (we are running TK for the last time ever tonight so I'm hoping for T5 shoulders or Solarian wand, and I am first in line for the next T6 gloves/helm). I will either get a drop that does it or will regem a few +9s as 4/5 hit damage to be capped.

My real question here... is crit really as useless as it seems? Does the spreadsheet take into account accurately increased ISB uptime benefit and the 100% crit bonus from ruin?

I feel like I have a ton of damage for my gearlevel (0 T6 0 +12 gems), should I sacrifice some for crit? And is haste really that much better than crit? I know it is better at higher gear levels because of the conversion factor, but what about Locks that aren't in mostly T6 gear and have less than 20 paperdoll crit%?

 

achille

I'd personally be interested in seeing some math around the party buffs. For example, how much of a dps boost to a warlock specced X is having a shaman in his party vs a mage vs a moonkin druid?
And if possible, how much more valuable, if at all, is having a warlock over a mage in the moonkin party?

Anecdotal evidence is that a t6 destro warlock dps' is highter than a mage's, so the benefit would be bigger getting the extra crit, but the imp sb uptime is the real deal, so to speak.

 

Krazen

I presume thats a p2 thing? Haven't reached p3 yet, so I don't know if pets get the aura.

 

Ammanas

It seems to me that it would be more beneficial for raid DPS to have destro locks in an ele sham group than mages. The 3% crit from wrath will increase ISB uptime, increasing the DPS of all the locks/s.priests in the raid. Mages don't have any crit-based raid synergy kind of thing.

Also, the 3% hit from the totem of wrath. Mages (at least arcane ones, I'm not 100% sure about other specs) have talents that help them reach the hit cap whereas destro locks pretty much have to have 202 hit from gear. Being able to get 3% from a totem frees up more room for damage/crit/haste gear.

As far as moonkins, my guild has never tried adding a boomkin to the raid makeup so I can't really speak from experience but it seems the crit would benefit the warlocks more for the same reasons.

 

Arelenda

Very roughly, one hit, crit or 20 damage = 1% extra damage for the destro warlock. This is generally what shadowseer tells me, it includes ISB. For mages this is typically less (but spec dependant).

Put mages with the resto shaman and a shadow priest, they'll love mana tide (which is a huge waste for warlocks).

Moonkins and Elementals are pretty much what warlocks want.

 

Reflection

Generally in raids you tend to find Elemental Shamans paired with a Shadow Priest and 3 Mages.
This applies to my guild and probably most of your own guilds.
Mages do not have Life Tap and therefore need Shadow Priests moreso than a Warlock.
By luck of the draw, us locks tend to be tossed around into oblivious raid slots.
If by chance I do get thrown into a Shadow Priest group, I'd likely trade spots with a Mage.
My guild has 3 Shadow Priests (usually raid with 1-2) and 1 Elemental Shaman.

 

• Suggestive

You should always have at least 1 destro lock in the elemental shaman group, and its something you should push your group to recognise. If you have 2 SP's in the raid, there's no reason for the mage not in the shaman group, not to have a shadow priest of his own.
As for how much of a DPS increase a destro lock gets from a ele shammy/SP group, last i checked accounting for gear switches i gain roughly ~12-14% DPS. That's without accounting for heroism, which is about a 28% increase for 40 secs. How much that averages out to depends on the encounter length.

 

Eph

I mathed out the personal gain when our guild picked up a Draenei Elemental a few months back to about +200dps. This was really rough math and a while back gear-wise, but its probably a decent estimate.

 

Trickykid

It's not too hard to see % increase by just pluggin the numbers on top of your own into the spreadsheet. My numbers show roughly what Arelenda notes (~1% dps increase from 0.9% hit, 1.1%crit, 18 damage). On top of that I see close to 1% dps increase from 50 mp5.

 

Bandoer

Crit is the worst stat for personal dps. (until you get to a +dmg that is currently unreachable) However, each crit increases raid damage by X. Depending on what number you plug in for that X, crit can be one of the best stats. But obviously it's a struggle to model that.

 

achille

These answers confirm pretty much my thoughts, but what i'd like to see is this.
You have a group made by: 3 mages, 1 moonkin and 1 shadowpriest.

How much personal dps would the mage loose by being swapped out from that party and be put in a party with say 1 or 2 hunters?

How much personal dps would the warlock gain/loose by being swapped from the hunter party in the moonkin party?

How much raid dps would the warlock produce when being put in the moonkin party (referring to imp sb uptime obviously)?

 

Bolche

There is no way to find the the "personal crit to ISB uptime" conversion in a raid setup. Because it depends on the other warlocks and SPs. This is why I made a simple ISB simulator. It is far from beeing perfect, but the results are very close from what I get ingame with shadowseer.

To answer your question :
If I take my raid as an exemple : 3 warlocks : 1 affliction (15% crit), 1 destruc (25% crit), 1 demono (15% crit - me), and one SP.
The average ISB uptime I get when running (10 times at max duration) the simulator is 48.6%
If I raise my crit to 20%, I get an ISB uptime of 51.8%
So increasing my crit by 5% increased the ISB uptime by 3.2%, thus increasing the raid shadow damage by 3.2*0.2 = 0.64%

Asuming that the 4 shadow users are doing the same dps as me ([dps]), the raid gained :
My personnal dps increase : [dps]*1.5% (approx what I gain from 5% crit :-( )
The other WL/SP dps increase : [dps]*4*0.64% = [dps]*2.6%
So roughly the raid gained [dps]*4.1%

 

Arelenda

Perfect, adding this to the compendium right away. Great stuff.

 

galzohar

While calculating the DPS loss of a mage from not getting WoA/ToW/moonkin aura is easy, calculating the DPS loss of a moonkin/mage/ele shaman from not having a shadow priest is a lot more complicated and really depends on the fight. It can be anywhere between 0 DPS loss to a pretty huge DPS loss. Since the elemental shaman and moonkin need the shadow priest and the warlocks don't, if you don't have shadow priests for all your casters (as in, only 1, or even 2 won't be enough if it's a fight where healers really need a SP) you end up with the mages getting the ele shaman/moonkin just because of shadow priest management, not becuase their DPS scales any better with crit, as raid DPS obviously scales better by increasing a destruction warlock's crit chance over a mage, but because both the ele shaman/moonkin and the mages need the SP and the SP needs a shaman so they're grouped up.

Granted if you have 3 shadowpriests in a raid (or 2 and decide your healers don't need 1) and enough (2-4) shamans, you can easily give the crit buffs to the destruction warlocks and gain raid DPS as a result.

 

Arelenda

I believe this was already answered.

Warlocks get at least 6% extra dps from the moonkin, and a decent amount of the priest (I'd say another 6%, given 50mp5 was 1%).

Typically mages want a shadow priest and a resto shaman, they're mana hungry. Warlocks want a moonkin and an elemental shaman. If there's spare shadow priests, warlocks will want them too (not to mention the moonkin and elemental shaman will want shadow priests). Ideally, I'd make a party with moonkin/elemental shaman/spriest and two warlocks, or moonkin/elemental/3xlock, and put shadow priest/resto shaman/3xmage.

But Shadow Priests are absolutely insanely good for other mana users, give shadow priests to other classes first. For warlocks, they're a luxury.

 

galzohar

Moonkin/elemental/3Xlock will starve the moonkin/elemental for mana in general, a they're probably more mana hungry than mages afaik (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why when you're short on shadow priests you end up giving the mages the crit buffs.

 

Brooklyn

Is there any Theorycrafting on who benefits the most from an elemental shaman, mage vs wl?

I see at least 2 downsides to group wl's with an elemental shaman:

- Each lifetap is wasting 1,5 s of totem usage.

- Elemental Shamans are essentially tied up to a SP. The SP now generates additional threat by "healing" the life taps of 2-3 wl's. There are some fights where our sp's are already threat capped (bloodboil/ros i.e ).

Add that to the fact that wl's already have unlimited mana, I son't see how an elemental/SP/3x WL group can be superior to an elemental/SP/3x Mage grp. We don't sport any Moonkins btw.

I don't think the improved ISB Debuff Up-time can justify that.

Excuse my not-so-perfect english it's not my mothertongue.

 

• Suggestive

Actually, WoA affects the mana regen from lifetap and mana spring decreases the need for it. I don't think anyone is really advocating sticking locks with a shadow priest if you only have one in the raid right now. If you have more than one shadow priest handy, and mages get the extra one, then the elemental shaman is undoubtedly better with the locks than with mages. Though i'd guess your hunters would want one too, which is why most people go with 1 shaman, 1 SP, 1 destro lock and 2 mages.

I'm not sure the threat issue is limited to warlocks, any class in a group with a SP on those fights will produce the same effect. To put this in perspective, our SP healed me for ~48 k dmg on our last bloodboil, and healed himself for ~44 k. That's about a 1.4 k difference on threat. More often than not, a direct heal/HoT from another healer is topping me off before VE can do much healing.

 

Krazen

What spec/gear setup is recommended to tank Illidan? I have 4 of the 5 crafted pieces (except the pants), not sure whether I need them or not.

 

Trianiel

First of all, i hope you'll excuse my poor English, i'm coming from French realms ...

I want to bring in this post some feedback on the 7/44/10 spec, and on the hit rating of the Felguard versus Worldbosses.

[The thing coming here is FALSE, but i keep it :]
I noticed that Leuliers spreadsheet was wrong on that point, and last nights i had issue concerning hit, Leuliers talks about 8% miss on WB for pets, my WWS (i can post it on demand) shows around 14% miss for the FG.
(After watching it seems that i have 7% miss, 1/2% Parried and 5% Dodged, summing up to 14% of 0 damage hit, sorry mister Leulier)

Also, i was using a classic spell rotation : CoD, Corruption, ShadowBolt Filling ... LT every 12 sec to keep my mana pool topped, as the only warlock(using shadows) in the raid the ISB uptime was around 41.37% (i have 16.6% crit), and according to Leuliers spreadsheet my mean DPS is around 1300 ... But i managed to make only 900/800 dps on bosses like Malcheezar or Shade of Aran (That don't needs so much moves and target switching, so i find them quite representative).

So my question is, is there known issues concerning Felguard spec DPS calculation on Leuliers Ss, or am i doing something wrong ?


I am sorry to bring nothing more than a (false) "% of miss of the FG" to this thread, and i'll try next time to bring forth more usefull things.

 

Fafhrd

You need full shadow resist gear to avoid getting hit by a full 11-12k Shadow Blast. Aim for more than 12k hp buffed.
When you are learning the fight it's easier on your healers to be SL spec.

 

Ormus

Hello Warlock-Community,

I'm not sure, if this place is the right one, the ask this question, but I couldn't find anything using the search-function.
My Question:

When (exactly) ist the time of calculation for "flying"-Spells.
Example: When happens the Bonus-Damage-Calculation (i.e. Improved-Shadowbolt-Debuff with SB // Scorch, immolate with incinerate // Shatter with frostbolt ...)?

Is it the BEGINNING of cast, the end of casttime or the moment, the spell hits the mob (+flight-duration)???

Thanks for your answers
Sorry for my bad english (i'm german

Greets
Ormus