Arveene

The only bosses we *don't* use CoR on in BT/Hyjal are the following:

Azgalor, Bloodboil, Essence of Suffering, Shahraz, Illidan

Azgalor - He already hits pretty damn hard.
Bloodboil - We already get crappy fel rage targets, don't really want to make it any worse.
Essence of Suffering - Need to make sure he hits Fixate targets for as little as possible.
Shahraz - Obvious reasons
Illidan - I'm not 100% sure if we should put it up there or not. We recently had a change of MTs, so we're not going to try it quite yet - but may soon.

These are the only bosses I can think of off the top of my head where we don't use CoR normally.



It's actually really easy to do this. For elements and shadows usually if there are 2+ members who will benefit from them they should be put up.

As for the math it's pretty simple. Take the DPS of CoD and compare it to the total increase of DPS the raid will get from CoE. (Ex. CoD DPS = 100. 2 fire mages who do 1000 dps overall = 1000x2x10% = 200 DPS.) That doesn't even take into account less partial resists for the mages as well.

You can do the same exact math for CoS as well.

For CoR it gets a bit trickier and depends on the mobs armor. Once you figure out the mob's armor you do the same thing as you do to calculate CoE.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....54348qrUOc.png

 

Crepe

For SSC/TK, we don't use CoR on the following bosses:

Hydross past 50% aura (I alternate between CoW and CoR)
Morogrim (though a druid MT seems to handle it fine)
Tidalvess (WF totem + CoR = bad news)
Al'ar phase 2 (missed taunt on melt armor = bad news)

We're still working on Kael, but CoR should be ok on all of the adds as well as Kael himself. I'd avoid CoR on the Kael trash that does the Arcane Flurry, as I like to use fear to interrupt that spell (though rogues have been getting better about gouging it).

For T4, I wouldn't use CoR on HKM or Mags unless your MT can take those nasty Cleave/Melee combos without much issue. CoR is bad news on Gruul past 7-8 grows.

EDIT: If we only have two warlocks, we usually prioritize CoS and then CoR. This is because there tends to be more shadow/arcane users in the raid (warlocks, spriests, moonkin, and arc mages) and physical DPS (rogues, hunters, warriors, feral druids, enh shaman, and ret pallies). Fire/frost users are exclusively mages and it's rare for us to have more than 2-3.

 

Silmeria

CoR on Morogrim is fine, we do it all the time as do most raids (from my research going through other WWS parses). His damage output is increased slightly, and since it's just white attacks, it's pretty trivial.

CoR on Al'ar is fine, a hit on melt armor with CoR is roughly 700 damage more. Just be ready for it and you'll be alright. Al'ar dying faster = less meteors, less birds, and less chances for mistakes.

CoR on Tidalvess is fine too, it's a trivial amount of damage increase, it's just a bigger series, all mitigated.

The thing to remember about CoR is that it just effects the base AP, if it's not multiplied by anything (like cleave, or enrage, etc), then it's going to be fine.

CoR on everything that doesn't have a special attack pretty much, or if your melee DPS really isn't touching the mob.

 

• frmorrison

For CoR, I use it on all bosses except Azgalor (due to silence, and the imp demo shout guy is tanking the demons) and Bloodboil (I use it most of the time, just remove during Fel Rage).

Everything else gets Recklessness, because with imp Demo Shout the attack power gain is very small.

 

Eph

81.92 Int = 1% crit.

Stat values in comparison to each other:
Probably specify that dmg>crit for destruction.
Also from my tinkering with the spreadsheet, 1 haste isn't quite worth 1 dmg (1:0.97) this may just be for my specific gear and spec though, but I'd like to do/see some more concrete math on it, especially with the load of new haste items in 2.3.
And perhaps we should add a little more detail to our stat comparisons similar to how the rouge guide did it:
This will differ between the three trees and a difference between t4 level and t6 level, but I think this is an area where a lot of warlocks over/under compensate.

 

Silverstorm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our values vary widely by spec, given the relative crit of each build, as well as the larger emphasis on Stamina for Demo locks. The weighting to +hit and +crit also is impacted by our +dmg. About the best we have right now is the "Next Stat Value" section in Leulier's spreadsheet (linked in the original post).

Attack Power is quite linear and easy to model (from discussions I've had with a feral druid friend), whereas caster stats are very much interdependent.


Also, for CoR modeling, here's the posts you need:

Boss Armor: [RAID] Boss armor values
CoR benefit: http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html

These assume both Sunder and Faerie Fire are already up, so the increase is 5.69% (7700 armor bosses) or 6.36% (6200 armor bosses).

So, if PhysicalDPS * CoR_Reduction > CurseOfDoomDPS, do CoR on appropriate bosses.

Given a 10k Curse of Doom, here's the calculation to determine if physical DPS is high enough:

10000 / 60 = 166.66 DPS for CoD.
166.66 / .0569 = PhysicalDPS = 2929.115 on the higher armor bosses. For lower armor, same calculation, but .0636:
10000 / 60 / .0636 = 2620.545 Physical DPS

Even simpler, here's what you multiply CoD by to find the required physical DPS:

7700 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2929115 (or .293 to be easy)
6200 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2620545 (or .262 to be easy)

If physical DPS is higher than the result, use CoR. If not...go ahead with CoD, and your raid probably has more issues than CoD vs. CoR.

 

Eph

True the best thing is the spreadsheet, maybe just make note emphasizing its use to determine gear choices. I guess I was originally thinking of making a sample gear set around the t4 range and another at the t6 range, going through the three main trees and writing out the values but I don't know how useful or accurate that would be.

 

Arelenda

The original poster is right, stats are weighted differently across specs and gear levels. They even differ with raid setup and per encounter. Being hit capped is very nice against bosses, but a huge waste for the majority of Hyjal, for example.

I wrote ShadowSeer to do just that: determine my personal benefit from each rating.

Example here.

 

Cohren

Thats a great mod and it seems very helpful. Is it available for download?

 

Eph

It's linked at the bottom of the first post. And yes, that does look like a great way to calculate stat values.

 

Raithlin

Further to the 'raiding demo lock' discussion heres a quick question - do Felguards benefit from Windfury, or any other synergy related effects/abilities other than SPs? i know they can get battleshout, but with that group perpetually made up of rogues and hunters its not one i as a demo lock am going to break into anytime soon.

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Shai

They benefit from all group-wide buffs, like LOTP, BS and Ferocius Inspiration. Can't comment on WF as we rarely have a shaman, and when we do he naturally goes with the melee.

For the short time I've tried Felguard spec, I was usually in a hunter, hunter, feral group. Not optimal, but can't complain about double FI for both the lock and the pet.

 

Chronitia

Just a few more notes on 40/21 since it's still sparse. Here are a few tips:

1.) You really need to get into a group with a shadow priest, even if that means losing totems
2.) At least until void star talisman (which I still havn't gotten), I found it necessary to give up 2% crit out of demonic tactics in order to get 3/3 demonic resilience and 3/3 fel stamina
3.) Bind "pet attack" to an easy hot key, as well as "pet follow" which ends up being called "special action bar X" where X is which icon the "pet follow" command is on. being able to pull your pet in and out of whirlwinds, spore quakes, etc is key

Challenge every assumption, test every possibility, and never trust your gut. The most deadly combatants are borne of a scholar's relentless pursuit of truth.

 

Silmeria

Windfury - no. It's a totem that applies a weapon buff - FGs don't have "gear" per say like players.

Strength of earth totem, ILoTP, battle shout, etc; basically any direct buff will effect your pet. And quite nicely too.

 

Raithlin

Thanks for that. Regarding Felguards and Shadow priests, it seems to me that with 2/3 Mana Feed and T2 set bonus you have basically removed the need for a SP, and it would thus benefit you more to join a melee group. Seeing as you essentially bring nothing to the melee however, you can basically forget it.

With 2/3 Mana Feed and T2 2-set bonus, the only really important synergy to obtain is the oomkins 3% crit aura. An SP is no more than a safety net for the more intractable boss fights.

For those of you interested in demo raiding, my profile link below will take you to what imo is the optimal raiding demo spec.

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Shai

With 1 point in Mana Feed I've never seen the Felguard run oom. I'd rather shuffle some points around to get Intensity. Spell pushback can be quite annoying, especially when using /stopcasting.

 

Vazu

As far as Demonology builds go, I can't really see anything being better than 7/44/10 honestly. Once you pickup 2 pieces of T5 + Void Star Talisman, the build is just incredibly fun and outputs a shitload of DPS. I pretty regularly pull 1300+ combined DPS, assuming the fight doesn't completely shutdown my Felguard. There aren't very many fights where I can't use him anymore. Watering down a Felguard build with Devestation and losing 2/2 LT and instant Corruption is a really bad idea IMO. Without Ruin and generally because Demo Warlocks prefer everything else (Hit, Haste, Spellpower) > crit, it's really underwhelming.

 

ninielin

Hmm disagreeing with you Vazu. I raid with a build 1/43/17 ( or 1/41/19 should I need instant such as shadowburn for a few fights like vashj) and I don't really see what instant corruption will bring to you ( gcd powa) over 1 point in corruption, nor do I see the DPS power of improved LT ( do have a SP all the time tho so maybe I m biased here). Seems to me its a lot of wasted points especially considering that crit certainely isn't useless as you will proc more ISB the more crit you have.

That said on a fight where my felguard isn't shutdown and can dps most of the time or even all the time ( about everything in ssc/tk), I m running at 1400, sometimes 1500 + dps depending on the dps time.Don't have any T6 yet, we're on kael.

 

vokzhen

You forgot some stuff. Comparative damage gains from each point of +dmg.
Incinerate: SnF, Sac, Emberstorm, Scorch, Misery, talented CoE.
1.578 per +dmg
Shadow Bolt: SnF, Sac, Weaving, Misery, talented CoS
1.587 per +dmg, with 0% ISB uptime; 60% uptime pushes Sbolt to 1.777. That's a significant difference.
As you said, ISB > mana efficiency, and Sbolt scales quite a bit better as it is. In addition, shadow gets increased bonus from CoD and Corruption, if it's used.

 

Arelenda

I don't think those were forgotten, it's just that those are multiplicative. Misery, for example will affect both the same. With Imp Scorch up (rare until 2.3) SB and Incinerate scale equally. It's just ISB that makes the difference. But ISB is decisive, really. Of course, if you're the only shadow user and have no shadow priest, it might be worth it.

 

Vazu

Yeah, try raiding nearly 100% of the time w/o a shadow Priest in your group. We always give them to Mages, then Hunters and healers leftover mixed into those groups. So I'd say yeah, it's pretty unfair to assume raiding w/o 2/2 Imp. LT is good unless you are guaranteed to have a shadow Priest. It's hard to deny how an additional 300+ mana/tap wouldn't contribute to your long-term DPS. I mean, there's just no arguement there if you don't have a mana battery.

 

Lilnietzsche

In regards to cast cycle, it seems taken for granted that immolate should be included. I am not stating that it should not be included, but in regards to an afflicition lock, I'm wondering if with the correct spell crit and desparity between shadow and fire damage that it would be better to cast another sb, even if it takes another second to cast. The reason I ask this is two fold. First, sb has much better damage coefficients than immolate. Second, when sb crits you get ISB effect as well as overall a lot more damage than if the initial immo blast crits. Especially when starting out with the fsw set, it is not uncommon to have 200+ more shadow damage than fire. I'm wondering if anyone has had some experience with the math behind this. This question is from the persepective of one beginning raids, but I'm much intrigued by the theory crafting I have seen so far, and it seems to be a lot of fun.

 

• frmorrison

Ignoring the PvP reasons for instant spells, having an instant gives you a chance to move a little bit without a dps penatly. With with a Shadow Priest (which I never get), I would still get imp Life Tap because it still means 20% less life taps, which is more dps time.

You aren't gaining much from 5% to crit in addition you only need 1 point in Mana Feed, FG gets 1 spirit tic between Cleaves. However, once you are in Black Temple the boss RoS on Phase 2 and 3 does damage to everyone, so the 70% less interruption talent would be helpful, although not required.

 

Arelenda

The answer: it depends. At high crit rates, Shadow Bolt tends to be more dps. Unfortunately, ISB coefficients vary a lot from fight to fight. I'm destro with BT gear, with no fire mages, but always Shadow Priests, and I get 15% bonus to shadow damage to DS. Still, on most occasions Immolate seems worth casting from damage-per-casting-time perspective.

I mostly use it right after the pull, before solid aggro has been established. No really high crit SB at the start that way ,and the Priest Shadow Weaving hasn't kicked in fully yet either, at that point.

But with _everything_ (talents, gear quality and setup and raid setup) in favor of SB, it's still only marginally better. Under most circumstances, Immolate will just be preferable.

You might want to try ShadowSeer to run the numbers for you, though. It does calculate damage-per-casting-time, and takes all talents including ISB and the combined immolate-hit+dot into account.

 

Cronjob

The problems I seem to be having with the FG build atm are that I do not have two piece t5 so he dies a lot since our healers dont heal him much or at all some times. Also I have to beg for buffs for my pet which gets old and pretty much just pisses me off by the end of the night. Also since I dont have any aggro reduction talents I draw a lot of aggro (not pull) so I have to be careful. I had a hell of a time on Al'ar lastnight, it was my first time doing it and my FG died too many times.