PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 3

jayowen · 10/13/07, 7:14 AM

For those who raid with a pet out - Sporeling Snacks work on warlock pets (20 stam and spirit).

I'm not sure how long it's been like this as I've only tried felguard recently, but they get the same greater blessings as warriors. Worth knowing when you want to swap light for might, but keep kings for example.

• frmorrison · 10/13/07, 12:27 PM

In 2.3 there is a new food that gives 20 str/spirit to the pet that is a bit better than stam.

Gruknok · 10/13/07, 4:45 PM

Hey. Ive got this problem. We had a fight with my guilds warlock CO cause of other warlocks performance. Ive noticed a 300-400 dps diference on single target encounters and asked whats the problem.

The answer was: "warlock 1 is in the tank group and he has raid buffing talents so you cant count his dps....... warlock2 is affliction till he ups his +hit, affliction is a pore dps raid bild i dont really want any in the guild. That leaves warlock 3 his gems dont go well with his gear then his spec sucks! ive told him what i want from him, if hes still dose nothing about it i an going to kick him................"

I dont believe that builds,group setup can make your dps get stuck at ~600, 700 at best while others in top 5 do ~900-1000 dps. Raid dps 9500-10000. ~12000 dps on hydross/morogrim. Their gear is about the same lvl as rest in guild.

builds
lock CO World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

~maxet hit, ~19 crit, ~1270 spell damage

lock 1 (tank group) World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

arround 936 spell damage, 15.44% to crit, 125 hit rating

lock 2 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

1010 shadowl damage, 141 hit rating, 15% crit chance

Lock 3 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

899 spell damage, 43 penetration, 54 hit rating (horrible i guess), 18.60% crit chance

The stats may be slightly diferent cause of grinding/raiding gear and stuff, none was wearing pvp gear though. Shouldnt be much diference id say.

Now can anyone confirm that the group setup or hit chance can be the reason of the huge dps diference? Or is it actualy slacking?

What would you suggest in such situation? If theres any kind person that would also want some more details i could pm reports and armory links.

Eph · 10/13/07, 6:33 PM

Haste is 15.7 = 1%, right?
Curse of Recklessness, which bosses in BC have an ability based on melee damage?

Nas · 10/13/07, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Gruknok

Hey. Ive got this problem. We had a fight with my guilds warlock CO cause of other warlocks performance. Ive noticed a 300-400 dps diference on single target encounters and asked whats the problem.

The answer was: "warlock 1 is in the tank group and he has raid buffing talents so you cant count his dps....... warlock2 is affliction till he ups his +hit, affliction is a pore dps raid bild i dont really want any in the guild. That leaves warlock 3 his gems dont go well with his gear then his spec sucks! ive told him what i want from him, if hes still dose nothing about it i an going to kick him................"

I dont believe that builds,group setup can make your dps get stuck at ~600, 700 at best while others in top 5 do ~900-1000 dps. Raid dps 9500-10000. ~12000 dps on hydross/morogrim. Their gear is about the same lvl as rest in guild.

builds
lock CO World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

~maxet hit, ~19 crit, ~1270 spell damage

lock 1 (tank group) World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

arround 936 spell damage, 15.44% to crit, 125 hit rating

lock 2 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

779 spell damage, 141 hit rating, 15% crit chance

Lock 3 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

899 spell damage, 43 penetration, 54 hit rating (horrible i guess), 18.60% crit chance

The stats may be slightly diferent cause of grinding/raiding gear and stuff, none was wearing pvp gear though. Shouldnt be much diference id say.

Now can anyone confirm that the group setup or hit chance can be the reason of the huge dps diference? Or is it actualy slacking?

What would you suggest in such situation? If theres any kind person that would also want some more details i could pm reports and armory links.

First of all, Spell Damage is very misleading, I would very much rather have their Shadow Damage instead, but since I don't I'll just make a very rough analysis of what is going on here.

Going off the info you have posted:

The Warlock CO seems to have quite a gear advantage over the rest, even when accounting for Demonic Aegis. Capping hit is very important, and he has done well by capping it. As for his spec I am assuming is uses a Soul Linked Succubus to DPS? If so then his spec makes sense, otherwise I am not too sure, as I haven't heard of anyone using such a spec for anything other than Succy DPS (which is pretty decent damage).

Warlock 1: Firstly this warlock is probably always providing a utility curse instead of a damage one, using a damage one would net him an extra 100-150 DPS roughly. Secondly, if I were him i'd drop Imp. CoA (as he's always on CoS/CoE anyway) and put those 2 points into Soul Siphon, 10% threat reduction to affliction damage is nothing to be scoffed at. As for his gear, his hit is low, if he has any gems other than hit ones or ones that contribute towards a hit socket bonus then he should probably regem. His crit is a bit high for an affliction warlock at his gear level (i'm guessing pre-SSC mostly), so I suspect he's using either crit gems or is favoring crit heavy items over something far more useful to his spec, such as hit.

Warlock 2: His gear doesn't seem to be too good, he has very low spell damage and way too much crit for somone at his gear level, again, I am guessing he either has crit heavy items or the wrong gems, might want to consider getting some more hit either way. Looking at his talents, the affliction tree is fine, has some talents I wouldn't get but that is a matter of personal preference, he does have all the important ones and that is what matters. However, I would get Destructive Reach in Destruction if I were him, instead of putting 5 points into Demonic Embrace. Then again, I somehow doubt he is having threat issues with his gear setup (unless he has a *lot* more shadow damage than spell damage, which is possible), but if he does, then getting 10% less threat on his Shadowbolts/Immolates would help him output that bit more damage.

Warlock 3: Yeah, 18.6% crit as affliction, very low hit and spell penetration (proven to be a useless PvE talent, save for very few bosses such as Supremus, and a number of trash mobs) lead me to believe he really doesn't know what gear suits him best. Need more hit, ditch the crit unless it comes with a piece that is great otherwise, and no spell penetration other than the cloak enchant (20). As for his spec, it is good, it's a common malediction utility build, and you would want two Warlocks with malediction assuming your raid has its fair share of fire mages. And if he already is providing a utility curse most of the time, then that would account for ~100 dps he would have if he were on a damage curse.

As far as group setup, if none of the warlocks save the CO are getting a Shadow Priest/Elemental Shaman then I would say that could well contribute to the DPS difference, as well. However, they have other things to worry about right now, such as optimising their gear and specs in some cases.

I would also like to touch on the Warlock CO’s comment about Affliction being a horrible DPS spec and that he doesn't want any in the raid save the "utility warlock". At the gear level your guild is at (judging by your own gear and by your mention of early SSC fights as a basis of comparison) Affliction is definitely a more viable spec than Destruction, I personally was affliction till we first stepped into Mount Hyjal, and with the right itemization and dot uptime it is far from being a "poor DPS spec".

Silverstorm · 10/14/07, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Clicky Trinkets and affliction builds: Clicky trinkets should be saved for when all of your DoTs are going to be refreshed in a small window. If at all possible, on 20-second clickies, try to double-tip corruption and unstable affliction. It's worth saving the trinket for a few seconds, it probably won't cost you an extra activation.

[snip]

Finally, affliction builds actually do scale really well, it's just that they only scale with damage since crit is marginal and we hit-cap easily. Higher-end gear tends to spend a lot of itemization points on crit and haste, which help destruction far more. It's not exactly a matter of scaling, it's a matter of scaling with the itemization that we will actually encounter in higher raid settings.

Double dipping on 20 second trinkets for both UA and Corruption is going to be quite difficult, since you have 1.5 seconds of UA cast + 18 seconds of dotting before the 2nd Corruption can be cast. It's almost impossible for me, even with /stopcasting. Hopefully, the changes in 2.3 to spell casting will alleviate this issue.

As far as affliction scaling and hit-capping....yes, it's difficult to scale beyond t5 content, since the gear moves toward crit and haste. However, we hit-cap just like any other warlock. Many people mistakenly count Suppression toward hit-capping. True, it helps your DoTs, which are a majority of your damage, but Shadowbolts are still a significant portion of an affliction lock's DPS.

As far as affliction wisdom goes, here's my experiences (43/0/18, 6/6 SSC, 3/4 TK):

I recently dropped Immolate from my rotation due to poor scaling and no raid synergy (all mages went arcane), and as a result, my Shadowbolt damage has increased it's percentage of my damage. My DPS increased slightly, probably due to less DoT uptime issues given the differing lengths of UA/Corr and Immo. I continue to use Siphon Life, as I'm nearly healer independent if I take no additional damage, however, it's generally a filler spell to get me to the end of a UA/Corr cycle, or cast while moving, provided I don't need mana.

I am still very competitive with my damage, despite being the Malediction lock, usually placing top 5 behind the arcane mages, the other affliction warlock, and occasionally a BM hunter. The additional 125-150 DPS from CoA would easily let me catch up, but the increased raid DPS is easily more than 125-150 when you consider we have 3-4 locks, 3 arcane mages, 2 shadow priests, and a boomkin. Unfortunately, the other locks vary from night to night (we have 5, and the two of us that are most consistent are me and the ISB Destro lock).

Lesson: Look carefully at your raid makeup and determine if Immolate is worth it. If it's close, test it both ways.

Gruknok · 10/14/07, 5:14 AM

Originally Posted by Nas

First of all, Spell Damage is very misleading, I would very much rather have their Shadow Damage instead, but since I don't I'll just make a very rough analysis of what is going on here.

Going off the info you have posted:

The Warlock CO seems to have quite a gear advantage over the rest, even when accounting for Demonic Aegis. Capping hit is very important, and he has done well by capping it. As for his spec I am assuming is uses a Soul Linked Succubus to DPS? If so then his spec makes sense, otherwise I am not too sure, as I haven't heard of anyone using such a spec for anything other than Succy DPS (which is pretty decent damage).

Warlock 1: Firstly this warlock is probably always providing a utility curse instead of a damage one, using a damage one would net him an extra 100-150 DPS roughly. Secondly, if I were him i'd drop Imp. CoA (as he's always on CoS/CoE anyway) and put those 2 points into Soul Siphon, 10% threat reduction to affliction damage is nothing to be scoffed at. As for his gear, his hit is low, if he has any gems other than hit ones or ones that contribute towards a hit socket bonus then he should probably regem. His crit is a bit high for an affliction warlock at his gear level (i'm guessing pre-SSC mostly), so I suspect he's using either crit gems or is favoring crit heavy items over something far more useful to his spec, such as hit.

Warlock 2: His gear doesn't seem to be too good, he has very low spell damage and way too much crit for somone at his gear level, again, I am guessing he either has crit heavy items or the wrong gems, might want to consider getting some more hit either way. Looking at his talents, the affliction tree is fine, has some talents I wouldn't get but that is a matter of personal preference, he does have all the important ones and that is what matters. However, I would get Destructive Reach in Destruction if I were him, instead of putting 5 points into Demonic Embrace. Then again, I somehow doubt he is having threat issues with his gear setup (unless he has a *lot* more shadow damage than spell damage, which is possible), but if he does, then getting 10% less threat on his Shadowbolts/Immolates would help him output that bit more damage.

Warlock 3: Yeah, 18.6% crit as affliction, very low hit and spell penetration (proven to be a useless PvE talent, save for very few bosses such as Supremus, and a number of trash mobs) lead me to believe he really doesn't know what gear suits him best. Need more hit, ditch the crit unless it comes with a piece that is great otherwise, and no spell penetration other than the cloak enchant (20). As for his spec, it is good, it's a common malediction utility build, and you would want two Warlocks with malediction assuming your raid has its fair share of fire mages. And if he already is providing a utility curse most of the time, then that would account for ~100 dps he would have if he were on a damage curse.

As far as group setup, if none of the warlocks save the CO are getting a Shadow Priest/Elemental Shaman then I would say that could well contribute to the DPS difference, as well. However, they have other things to worry about right now, such as optimising their gear and specs in some cases.

I would also like to touch on the Warlock CO’s comment about Affliction being a horrible DPS spec and that he doesn't want any in the raid save the "utility warlock". At the gear level your guild is at (judging by your own gear and by your mention of early SSC fights as a basis of comparison) Affliction is definitely a more viable spec than Destruction, I personally was affliction till we first stepped into Mount Hyjal, and with the right itemization and dot uptime it is far from being a "poor DPS spec".

Updated: warlock 2 has 1010 shadow damage. Thanks anyway. Got the idea of what the problem is.

Arelenda · 10/14/07, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Finally, affliction builds actually do scale really well, it's just that they only scale with damage since crit is marginal and we hit-cap easily. Higher-end gear tends to spend a lot of itemization points on crit and haste, which help destruction far more. It's not exactly a matter of scaling, it's a matter of scaling with the itemization that we will actually encounter in higher raid settings.

I don't see how stat allocation has anything to do with it, really.

In my opinion destruction warlocks gain more from +damage compared to affliction warlocks, due to their spammable spell getting a huge damage boost from it. Math to support that is at the end of the post. I know it's a bit hypothetical, but it's there to illustrate the point, not provide insurmountable proof.

Gear with high +damage and nothing else would also be used by destro's and would widen the gap. Incidentally, this is also why FSW is great for destro's too, provided they can obtain acceptable hit/crit on their other pieces.

-----

100 spelldamage extra will add, for an affliction lock:
Corruption: 100 * (0.94+0.12*3) * 1.05 * 1.1, due to emp corruption, Contagion, SM)
UA: 100 * 1.2 * 1.1 (SM)
Shadow Bolt: 100 * (3 / 3.5) * 1.1 (SM)

Or:

Corruption: 150 damage over 18 seconds, or 8,3dps
UA: 132 damage over 18 seconds, or 7,3 dps
Shadow Bolt: 94 damage per bolt.

Assuming a simplified 20 second rotation of UA/Corruption/SB/SB/SB/SB/SB/LT/DP you'd gain 150 from corruption, 132 from UA, and 5x94 from SB.

So a total gain of 753 damage over 20s or 38dps

for a destro lock (0/21/40), 100 spelldamage earns:

Shadow Bolt: 100 * (3 / 3.5 + 0.2) * 1.15 (SnF and DS)

Or:

Shadowbolt: 121.5 damage per bolt

Assuming something like SB/SB/SB/SB/LT, you'd gain 121.5*4=486 damage over 11.5s or 42dps.

This is assuming no crits and no CoD. Both of those are in favor of the destrolock anyway.

• frmorrison · 10/14/07, 2:43 PM

I am Destro, and I have to agree, pure +damage will help Destro at least as much as Affliction (you forgot Siphon Life in your calcs, which will add a few dps). I still use the FSW boots because they are just that good (if you are hit capped).

However, if Blizzard designed items with pure +damage (think Solarian's pants or Kael's 44 damage cloak), they aren't really that good compared to items that mix stats.

Note that if the item designers instead just use +shadow damage (the 53 shadow damage BT/Hyjal trash drop cloak or the Kara trash drop +shadow neck), then it comes out really good due to pure schools being much cheaper in the item budget.

tizoxin · 10/14/07, 4:21 PM

I've seen from a lot of posts here that Curse of Doom isn't affected by Shadow Mastery? Can anyone give me an explanation as to why? Is it simply because of the 200% spell coefficient on Doom or what?

If Shadow Mastery does not affect it, then does the demo sacrifice Succubus 15% affect it?

• Curved · 10/14/07, 4:56 PM

Don't think anyone knows why it doesn't affect it. We could guess all day, but you'd have to ask blizzard to get a definite answer.

Antoine · 10/14/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by tizoxin

If Shadow Mastery does not affect it, then does the demo sacrifice Succubus 15% affect it?

yes

bzk · 10/14/07, 5:55 PM

I've got a question about Suppression and hit, I'm a little confused about the two. Say I have 5/5 supression and I've got 6% hit on my gear does this mean I've hit the hit cap for a warlock?

scottemad123 · 10/14/07, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by bzk

I've got a question about Suppression and hit, I'm a little confused about the two. Say I have 5/5 supression and I've got 6% hit on my gear does this mean I've hit the hit cap for a warlock?

Only on your affliction school of spells, your still pretty gimped on your shadowbolts still.

bzk · 10/14/07, 6:18 PM

Alright so bascially I should still try and stack hit on my gear and respec out of suppression when I've got the correct amount of hit?