Krazen

I guess it depends on whose spreadsheet you are using and how you socket. I punched the numbers into Leulier's and I had channeled elements at a 10 dps difference and the cowl had a 9 dps difference. The cowl, however, allows you to use a blue gem without penalty.

 

ninielin

Mmm okay I ll go zhardoom. I guess my guts tell me 55 haste doesn't outperform the loss of 34 hit and 42 dmg ( since you have to get other + hit items on the rest of your armor, like nethervoid cloak instead of illidari).

 

Krazen

Well, the assumption is that you don't need the hit at this level of gear. Keep in mind nethervoid has a +11 dmg advantage (and some stats) over illidari.

 

Cohren

Can you post a gear list so that I can crunch the numbers? For the life of me I cannot make Zhar'doom come out ahead of ToC+OH

 

Shuko

I didnt manage to do it either. Below is best set Ive managed to put together so far.

Using 1.17v Leulier with max debuffs casting just CoE and SB:

chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1349shadow dmg
28,31% crit
16,24% hit
5,71% haste
1575dps, (1604 with CSD)


Best with staff:

chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1313
26,08
16
9,2
1563 (1593)

 

weet

Comparing the two weapon choices in a tank and spank style situation, without considering +dmg buffs and how much mana regen you actually have in a raid situation is going to create a huge false impression.

Adding those things will mean that the staff pulls ahead.

 

galzohar

Yeah imo if you want good results with lieuler, you have to assume fight length and adjust lifetap frequency to make you oom at the end of the fight, and enter all mana available to you in the fight as either mp5 or plain mana. Then change your gear/whatever and do the same thing with same fight duration and see what gives more DPS.

Is there a new version that actually lets you set fight duration and adjust lifetap by it? And if not will it be added? How about buffs on the imp for affliction warlocks?

 

Cohren

Honestly who cares about the "best case scenario." I don't know about other people but I'm looking for the best SB spamming gear set with Life Tap set to needed, CoS(CoE) casted and assuming all raid debuffs such as Misery, Shadow Weaving etc... and unbuffed(no fel armor either) DPS gear set. So far the best I can come up with is 1544.41 with the ToC+OH. No staff combination I've come up with comes close to that with the new spreadsheet.

Cohren - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Thats the link to the numbers I used.

 

• Suggestive

Why would you set up a situation without ANY buffs, including your own self cast buff? I can understand not accounting for a shaman for example, but what you're doing frankly doesn't make sense. You don't go into encounters with zero buffs, so why account for it?

 

Shuko

ToC+OH
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
DPS: 1620
Raid DPS: 2104

Staff
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1606
2096

weet staff
weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
1601
2101

Raid buffs:

130 fel armor
80 flask
101 WoA
42 oil
23 food

49 BoW
250 SP
62 Imp MS

~0.8% crit from int (AB & BoK)

Regen values are taken from the Leuliers sheets examples.

Talents etc used in sheet:

CSD meta gem

dem aegis 3
sac 1

isb 5
cata 5
bane 5
ruin 1
sf 5

sw 1,1
mise 1,05
cos 1,13

isb model 50%

 

weet

Compare this staff setup to yours, should come out a bit higher again. (would swap to a pyrestone for horde for the 2 hit rating to get to cap, but no need as alliance)

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

In reality the hyjal ring is undervalued in spreadsheets though so that should be in a proper gearset.

 

Cohren

Because there needs to be some parameters setup so that when people post thier numbers and link to a gear set, the numbers can be reached. Also adding in Fel Armor, Flask, etc... will not make the gear set which comes out with the lower DPS unbuffed higher than that same gear set if you add in all the buffs. Its for simplicity and common ground. This isn't some e-peen thing where we all post and go "zomg I calculated a gear set that pumps out 203948248 DPS!!!!!!!!!! COPY ME!!!!"

Also weet your gear set is unrealistic for the majority of the end game Warlock community as guilds like mine will not ever go back to SSC

 

Idk

1. Yes, the buffs do matter. For one, a gear set with 202 hit rating will be wasting item value in a group that includes an elemental shaman. On top of this, the value of stats relative to one another change as your stats change. As your spell damage increases, the value of 1 haste or 1 crit will increase relative to 1 spell damage. For example, let's assume a destro lock with 1000 spell damage and 40% crit does the same damage as the same specced lock with 1200 spell damage and 30% crit (these are made up numbers).. if both locks get 200 spell damage from consumables, the first lock will produce more damage from that same 200 spell damage buff.

If you want accurate gear comparisons you need to factor in as many variables as you can and this includes raid buffs.

2. Why should he tailor his gear set to accommodate warlocks who aren't going back to SSC?

 

Arelenda

Calculating a raid gear set and posting numbers excluding Fel Armor, and calling other people's set unrealistic in the same post is rather ironic.

If you're looking for "best gear set for 0/21/40 warlocks that excludes all buffs but includes all raid debuffs and excludes SSC gear", you're free to do so. I don't particularly see how the results are useful to anyone but you, though. As has been pointed out, hit/crit/haste/damage ratios will depend on your statistics, and a potential gear set that comes out on top with no buffs can easily be outdone by another when you calculate in Fel Armor, consumables, a Draenei Shaman, and the tons of other buffs/debuffs you can expect in a raid.

But let's keep our responses mature, respectful and most of all, constructive.

 

Antoine

What model are you guys who are making ideal setups using for ISB uptime?
using chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta and the same raid buffs as above (shaman, not counting tide, tow, or bloodlust, spriest, flask, oil, food, wisdom, kings, ai), I got

 

Shuko

Updated the post above.

I know the hyjal rep ring is underrated, but havent seen any real calculations of its effective dmg.

EDIT:

I suck at math, so someone correct.

15sec buff
60sec cd (45cd, 15buff)

dmg x SF x SB eff x sac
dmg per bolt = 95 x 1.2 x (3/3.5) x 1.15

15sec/2.5 = 6sb
6 x dmg per bolt = 674
674 / 60sec = 11dps

 

Shuko

Using the default "custom 50%". Updated the post above with more accurate numbers.

 

galzohar

Setting lifetap to "needed" isn't very realistic, as you do not finish a fight with full mana. Setting it to "manual" and adjusting the frequency such that the "time until oom" will match the fight duration is going to give you much more realistic results.

 

weet

Well the purpose of theorycrafting gear is, for me at least to find the optimal gear-set in MY average raid situation. So the point of adding buffs to the equation is not to arbitrarily make the dps column higher but to more accurately portray what is in fact happening for me when I raid. And 95% of the time on anything that matters (and for sunwell)I do/will have those buffs. And alot of other people would be in the same situation.

And as others have said above, the buffs do change the relative value of some gear stats significantly. Even with a lifetap model of 'needed' with raid mp/5 buffs, which i still consider a significantly higher life tap freqency than what I would rate my usual 'needed lifetaps when in a situation where i can be casting shadowbolt' haste's value grows alot higher in comparison to damage with raid buffs and mana regen.

As regards to vashj robes, this is theorycraft - if something is out of your reach itemwise you can adjust your own parameters upon item selection, but you cannot put that restriction on everyone globally.. in that case I was simply linking a gearset as the highest theoretically. In reality, personally some items such as the cape off of illidari council I cannot get in a reasonable time frame so I have my own wishlist gearset which excludes that, but it is simply worse than the best possible.

In terms of ISB models changing from a static value to one of the modeled settings only really changes the value of crit vs damage from what I can see, yet the models are self-only so it is inflated quite a bit. Haste increases number of ISB procs over a timer period anyway, so given that the relative raid dps return of each crit becomes diminished with more destro locks I don't see much of an inaccuracy problem with using a static value around 50%. If you just focus on personal dps, the best gearsets are going to have a respectable amount of crit and haste due to the item budget.

re: Hyjal exalted ring: this link has an estimation for a 10 second duration 35sec cooldown version, which is obviously not the same as the current ring but gives some idea.
SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

 

galzohar

Problem is you want how much the *raid* dps increases, not how much your own dps increases. So ignoring other people's dps from your crits totally undervalues crit. Then again it might not be undervaluing it *that* much - can't really tell without a more realistic ISB model.

 

Arelenda

_if_ Blizzard fixes their damage reporting system, I'll be able to rewrite ShadowSeer so it gives you 100% exact accurate data on ISB. This is supposed to happen in 2.4. We'll see how it goes.

For now, 50% uptime (on bosses) seems a relatively sane guess.

 

galzohar

What the actual SB uptime isn't as important as knowing how much that uptime would actually change as you change your crit chance. As we're trying to evaluate gear here rather than just say how much dps you're going to be doing. While 50% may be a good approximation to calculate personal dps benefits, it completely neglects the change to that 50% that will happen if you change your crit rate.

As for all the guys doing unbuffed VS buffed comparisons... On one hand your results shouldn't differ *too* much, as changing your stats isn't that big of a deal regarding how good each stat is, however if you want to be as accurate as you can you should obviuosly take as much as possible into account. Since going unbuffed will give slight bias towards certain stats (depending what buffs you're neglecting) it doesn't make sense to calculate unbuffed DPS. Of course it will only make the difference when comparing items that are already pretty close - if 1 item is WAY superior to the other it won't matter if you do the comparison with or without buffs.
Also remember that if you want accurate gear evaluation use the stats you have on your character at the moment (or will have very soon assuming you know you're getting that upgrade for sure) will give you much more realistic item evaluation. This may differ from what other people may get for those items, but what you need to know at the end is if this item is good for YOU, not someone who has all the best gear in the game except that one item. Again this is only going to make a difference for items that are already very very close in value so it probably doesn't matter anyway.

 

Fireye

I throw myself upon the mercy of the Elitist Jerks thread of awesomeness and win.

I've had a devil of a time deciding what to do with my Heroic Badges. I recently applied to a raiding group that's been killing Vashj and Kael for the past two weeks, and I have high hopes of getting in. I'm at the spellhit cap, but just barely. I'm having a killer time finding items to purchase with my heroic badges that will increase my damage done on a boss target. Can you guys help me decide just what would be a worthwhile purchase?

The World of Warcraft Armory
I have the Voidheart Gloves, the Brooch of Unquenchable Fury, Mindstorm Wristbands, Orb of the Soul Eater, and the Mantle of Ill Intent.

Because a lot of my +hit comes from my gloves, I can't take the Studious Wraps. I have a small amount of +hit on my bracers, so the Runed Spellcuffs are out. I have 15 +hit on my pants, I can make that up by switching my neckpiece around, but overall I would lose 40 +dmg and gain 45 haste rating but I don't see that as a totally positive gain. The belt is a very small upgrade, but I trade +dmg for crit and some hit.

Should I just sit on my badges until I get enough +hit gear to be able to get the pants, or should I go for something now? These things are burning a hole in my pocket!

 

galzohar

Getting 375 tailoring and FSW+spellstrike will up your DPS a lot and make it much easier for you to hit the cap - both because of the hit on spellstrike and becuase of the 5 dmg 4 hit gems you can place in the many sockets on those sets, not to mention the incredible amount of spell damage those sets provide. Isn't "pick tailoring if you're seroius" a part of the main post?... If it isn't it definitely should be mentioned somewhere there. Getting good dps without T5/6 and without tailoring is just not possible. Well possible but you will have a very hard time competing.

Note that if you need hit and don't need stamina, no socket bonus is ever really worth it over just socketing full 5 dmg 4 hit gems until you're capped. Generally with reasonable gear you shouldn't need to use 8 hit gems to cap your hit.

 

Fireye

I've made a choice not to pick up tailoring. It's obvious that you can get by without that, albeit tougher. I enjoy being an alchemist, and gaining access to some ilvl 105 gear isn't worth the change. It's entirely possible to put out good DPS without T5/T6. The best? Obviously not, but competitive with the group that I'd be running with? Yes.

Anywho, I'm not asking for general advice on my gear, it's obvious that there are improvements to be made. I just haven't had access to higher level raid content yet. Opinions on the new badge gear, and maybe some advice on how to work it into a boss gear set?