PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 34

awakened · 01/04/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

Classes that consistently top DPS charts? You mean, other than warlocks?

In my experience, at your progression and gear level, only the best equipped rogues can keep up with destrolocks.

All specs (affliction, demo and destro) have their fans, but they all do solid dps and should be hovering near the top. Even the Malediction warlock should be able to hold their own. If you're outdpsing another warlock while providing talented CoS, then something is definitely wrong with guy.

Make sure to have at the very least enough hit rating to be capped on trash (5% or 60ish), more is better. Check your dot selection (is Immolate worth it for you?) and uptime: are you refreshing too early? too late?

In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.

Krazen · 01/04/08, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by awakened

In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.

Couple points, which are mentioned earlier in this thread:

1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.
2. Your 'lifetapping all at once' approach leads me to believe you're lifetapping when DoTs have expired. You don't want to do this; lifetap only after dots are up in place of shadowbolts.
3. Are you dotting multiple targets?
4. Group buffs/player consumables have a significant impact on dps.

Stran · 01/04/08, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by awakened

In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.

Taping all at once can lead to a significant loss in DPS. The reasoning is due to a few factors:

1. UA has 3 seconds left and your SB just finished. Cast another SB and you just lost 2 seconds of UA and Corruption uptime. If you Life Tap or Dark Pact, you just used 1.5 seconds to catch up on mana and can begin recasting UA and follow it with a Corruption, keeping 100% dot uptime. This will add up over the course of the fight.

2. Fight requires movement. If you just used 6 seconds to tap to full (doing no damage at this time) and now have to move ... that movement time is largely wasted unless some instant dots need refreshing. Instead, tap on the move and save non movement time for SBs and UA casting.

3. While not an impact on DPS, tapping all at once can lead to an accidental death. Getting used to tapping during a rotation can ensure your healers do not blow their mana on emergency heals, and can ensure your survival. You can also likely stay toped up with SL ticking. If you have a Shadow Priest in group, not taping regularly leads to his passive healing being largely wasted (but does provide him with slightly less threat at least)

Other notes:

1. It takes a large number of +shadow to make immolate worthless. It does need 16% hit as opposed to other dots but it cuts into SB time anyways which also requires 16% hit.

2. How do you calculate DPS/Damage Done? This can have a large impact. Some guilds include trash in their numbers. While clearing trash quickly is very beneficial, it largely favors burst builds (mages, rogues, shamans, warriors). So maximizing DPS on trash is very beneficial but evaluating your build on it is not, as few guilds struggle with trash while high DPS on bosses can mean a difference between success and fail.

3. Your dots are king. If there are multiple targets available, prioritize dots on all targets over shadowbolts. You will not get the benefit of main kill target debuffs (ISB, SW, Misery) but you will still see a great DPS increase.

4. You did not link your profile, keep in mind even affliction locks need 16% hit to be competitive. 45% of your damage should be from SB (unless multi target encounter).

Hope that helps. I am regularly top of my guilds charts. I acheived this in both 6/44/11 and 0/21/40 builds. Rogues do trounce me on some encounters, while I trounce them on others. Recently a mage has been gunning for that spot but I remain very competitive. While affliction locks do tend to sacrifice a lot for the utility they provide, I was beaten by one last night on Terron (I blame it on a very biased blossom pushing my spells back).

Idk · 01/04/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by KuruQan

How many aff lock dont have Amped curse.

I think that any practical affliction raiding build will not make use of amp curse, even if the points in the tree allow one to get it. The raid has use for at most 2 affliction locks, one for each kind of malediction-enhanced curse. Additional affliction locks consume more debuff slots and their improved damage curses rarely outweigh the raw damage of a destro or felguard lock... and any respectable warlock build (for pure raid dps) that's not deep affliction will not have amp curse.

So who actually ends up using the talent?

awakened · 01/04/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Krazen

Couple points, which are mentioned earlier in this thread:

1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.
2. Your 'lifetapping all at once' approach leads me to believe you're lifetapping when DoTs have expired. You don't want to do this; lifetap only after dots are up in place of shadowbolts.
3. Are you dotting multiple targets?
4. Group buffs/player consumables have a significant impact on dps.

2. I typically use Dark Pact over Life Tap unless my Imp is on empty. I always refresh my DoTs before doing so unless doing so would generate too much aggro. The RL will call no more DoTs on certain fights to ensure that the tank can reestablish aggro first. So there is always instances where DoTs will drop. Keep in mind that I usually rejuice while I am on the move or when we are switching targets. It's only on the extremely long fights that I have to interrupt my spell rotation to do so.

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.

Pidge · 01/04/08, 1:48 PM

1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.

I have to disagree with this statement. Corruption and UA are both 18 second dots, so it doesn't matter what order you cast them in as long as you refresh them in the same order every rotation. When I'm Affliction, I cast Corruption > UA with a /castsequence macro, and that order feels better to me for two reasons.

1. There are times when I want to only cast Corruption, such as during trash or kiting Stalkers on Vashj.
2. I feel there is a delay in /castsequence macros when attempting to chain after spells with a casting time. I think it is caused by the sequence not advancing to the next spell in the cycle until the client finishes the current spellcast.

Stran · 01/04/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Pidge

I have to disagree with this statement. Corruption and UA are both 18 second dots, so it doesn't matter what order you cast them in as long as you refresh them in the same order every rotation. When I'm Affliction, I cast Corruption > UA with a /castsequence macro, and that order feels better to me for two reasons.

1. There are times when I want to only cast Corruption, such as during trash or kiting Stalkers on Vashj.
2. I feel there is a delay in /castsequence macros when attempting to chain after spells with a casting time. I think it is caused by the sequence not advancing to the next spell in the cycle until the client finishes the current spellcast.

Due to how GCD interacts with latency, it is better to lead off with a UA. If you utilize a cast bar with latency timer, it's far easier to recognize when the spell is truly finished casting when it has a cast time. GCD is also maintained by the client (as well as server) while cast times have gone through a revamp recently. Even prior to the revamp, it was better to UA first then stopcast a corruption. Test it out, you will notice an increase in dps and dot up time if you use UA -> Corr. The increase is negligible to noticeable, depending on your latency.

Caveat is that you never let UA drop before starting to recast it. It needs to start being reapplied 1.5 seconds prior to its last tick.

Idk · 01/04/08, 2:59 PM

I'm going to speak a little blasphemy here. I'm thinking about a shadowfury build. Since this is a thread about PVE warlock raiding, I figured this would still be relevant.

Some context: I'm on a backwater server where 25-man raiding doesn't happen. The small guild that I'm in focuses on the 10-man ZA timed event in spite of our T4/KZ gear. I've been thinking of ways to optimize my spec for the run. My raid always has a shadowpriest and almost never has a mage. I'm frequently the only warlock, so CoS is about all the raid gets in terms of curses. Our tanks and healers are geared and skilled enough to not need the debuff from shadow's embrace, and we only run with 2 healers. Speeding up the rate at which we kill bosses and trash is the way for us to bridge the gap between killing 3 bosses and killing 4 bosses. My damage is already highly optimized, I'm generally doing 1200-1400 for the 4 timed event bosses with a standard 0/21/40 build. I've elected not to take a UA build because the DPS is awful for trash, which is half the speed run. I love the felguard build but the boss encounters in ZA are largely pet unfriendly (and 2-piece T5 isn't available to me).

I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it. What I came to realize is that shadowfury has a .5s cast time that doesn't trigger the global cooldown. The raw damage of my shadowfury (which includes spell power and averaged crit but does not include ISB, CoS, misery, SW, etc.) is 1148. My shadowbolt is 1981. The DPCT of shadowfury before debuffs is 2296 compared to shadowbolt's 792. I know it's not going to be a huge damage increase because shadowfury inhibits ISB uptime by consuming a charge (I presume but this will require verification), it's on a 20 second cooldown, and it's expensive (710 mana before cataclysm).

So I added shadowfury to my damage simulator giving it a .5s cast + lag and no GCD, and started playing with specs. I also generated numbers for other standard specs to get an idea of relative value.

shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53

My favorite variant so far is 7/13/41 with the destro fire talents to improve immolate. With just the shadowpriest and I in the raid, ISB uptime for him drops by 7% as compared to a pure shadowbolt spam 0/21/40 build.. a difference of 1.4% total damage for him. FYI, my damage numbers above already incorporate the drop in ISB uptime.

So it's interesting.. and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. The other thing that's amusing about this spec is that it's the only one that I know of that truly has a disposable pet. With 13 points in demonology (for aegis) it's easy to get the improved imp for the extra little boost in stamina for the party. On fights that are not stam intensive (with little raid damage) it's possible to just have the imp slinging firebolts. With a shadowpriest in the group he should be able to spam for quite awhile. Finally, I think there's just enough movement in the ZA boss fights to benefit from the instant-cast corruption and .5s shadowfury (that should be easy to pull off "on the move").

Thoughts? Has anyone else put much thought into a spec that includes shadowfury? Given that you need to select the AOE target once the spell has been triggered, is it actually practical to consider the spell a .5s + lag cast?

Stran · 01/04/08, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Idk

I'm going to speak a little blasphemy here. I'm thinking about a shadowfury build. Since this is a thread about PVE warlock raiding, I figured this would still be relevant.

Some context: I'm on a backwater server where 25-man raiding doesn't happen. The small guild that I'm in focuses on the 10-man ZA timed event in spite of our T4/KZ gear. I've been thinking of ways to optimize my spec for the run. My raid always has a shadowpriest and almost never has a mage. I'm frequently the only warlock, so CoS is about all the raid gets in terms of curses. Our tanks and healers are geared and skilled enough to not need the debuff from shadow's embrace, and we only run with 2 healers. Speeding up the rate at which we kill bosses and trash is the way for us to bridge the gap between killing 3 bosses and killing 4 bosses. My damage is already highly optimized, I'm generally doing 1200-1400 for the 4 timed event bosses with a standard 0/21/40 build. I've elected not to take a UA build because the DPS is awful for trash, which is half the speed run. I love the felguard build but the boss encounters in ZA are largely pet unfriendly (and 2-piece T5 isn't available to me).

I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it. What I came to realize is that shadowfury has a .5s cast time that doesn't trigger the global cooldown. The raw damage of my shadowfury (which includes spell power and averaged crit but does not include ISB, CoS, misery, SW, etc.) is 1148. My shadowbolt is 1981. The DPCT of shadowfury before debuffs is 2296 compared to shadowbolt's 792. I know it's not going to be a huge damage increase because shadowfury inhibits ISB uptime by consuming a charge (I presume but this will require verification), it's on a 20 second cooldown, and it's expensive (710 mana before cataclysm).

So I added shadowfury to my damage simulator giving it a .5s cast + lag and no GCD, and started playing with specs. I also generated numbers for other standard specs to get an idea of relative value.

shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53

My favorite variant so far is 7/13/41 with the destro fire talents to improve immolate. With just the shadowpriest and I in the raid, ISB uptime for him drops by 7% as compared to a pure shadowbolt spam 0/21/40 build.. a difference of 1.4% total damage for him. FYI, my damage numbers above already incorporate the drop in ISB uptime.

So it's interesting.. and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. The other thing that's amusing about this spec is that it's the only one that I know of that truly has a disposable pet. With 13 points in demonology (for aegis) it's easy to get the improved imp for the extra little boost in stamina for the party. On fights that are not stam intensive (with little raid damage) it's possible to just have the imp slinging firebolts. With a shadowpriest in the group he should be able to spam for quite awhile. Finally, I think there's just enough movement in the ZA boss fights to benefit from the instant-cast corruption and .5s shadowfury (that should be easy to pull off "on the move").

Thoughts? Has anyone else put much thought into a spec that includes shadowfury? Given that you need to select the AOE target once the spell has been triggered, is it actually practical to consider the spell a .5s + lag cast?

Not sure what to offer you. Your own numbers show that it's not the optimal DPS spec. It isn't as much DPS as 21/40 nor is it as mana efficient. If you are not after the optimal spec (be it DPS or utility) anything you get will likely be speculations. You are obviously willing to take the DPS hit, so with that in mind, is shadowfury usable? Sure, any spec is. Will it increase your run time? Likely not. It will help on some bosses, but you will be slower on others. Shadowfury also stuns which I believe generates additional threat. And as far as cast time, 0.5 is close. With enough practice, you can get off SF in a split second.

• Suggestive · 01/04/08, 3:31 PM

It appears Syphon of the Nathrezim comsumes ISB charges (if the WoW forums are to be believed). I will probably try to con our MT into some tests with me later today just to satisfy my curiosity. What i'm trying to figure out, is how much of an impact this has on raid DPS. It doesn't help that i can't seem to find any sort of definitive information on its chance to proc. If anyone has, or can point me towards anything that indicates its proc chance that would be awesome.

Krazen · 01/04/08, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by awakened

2. I typically use Dark Pact over Life Tap unless my Imp is on empty. I always refresh my DoTs before doing so unless doing so would generate too much aggro. The RL will call no more DoTs on certain fights to ensure that the tank can reestablish aggro first. So there is always instances where DoTs will drop. Keep in mind that I usually rejuice while I am on the move or when we are switching targets. It's only on the extremely long fights that I have to interrupt my spell rotation to do so.

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.

Well, as stran said, dots are king. FLK, for example, offers an excellent opportunity for tab dotting, and that's your greatest strength with that build.

Throw a doom on FLK on the pull. While your raid is killing the shaman (or hunter), maintain full dots on that one and maintain at least agony, UA, Corr on the other. Throw a 2nd doom on FLK as you hike over to the priest.

There are some exceptions to this, I guess (Striders on Vashj have to be killed before the next pops), but you have to evaluate those situations on your own.

If your RL doesn't let you maximize your potential, that's his problem, not yours.

Idk · 01/04/08, 4:03 PM

I guess I'm probing for experience with the spec and trying to promote general discussion about a skill that's largely ignored (and ignored for good reason the vast majority of the time). I intend to spec it and try it but I want to make sure my logic is sound before i make that decision (and risk a timed event opportunity).

7/13/41 is less mana efficient than 0/21/40 but gains imp lifetap. The number of lifetaps in a 10 minute fight between the two specs are identical assuming 16% hit and shadow priest regen (for me it's 36 taps unless there are excessive resists).

Part of the problem with my modeler (and with the spreadsheet) is that it's intended to simulate damage for extended fights (600s) that involve no movement and a single target. Unfortunately this is a far cry from what it's like to actually run ZA. The extremely difficult question to answer is: how much movement / interruption / parallel damage does it take before a more mobile spec outperforms an entirely stand-and-cast spec across an entire instance of content? That's probably something that can only be determined empirically which is more or less why I'm trying to initiate this discussion.

• frmorrison · 01/04/08, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Suggestive

It appears Syphon of the Nathrezim comsumes ISB charges (if the WoW forums are to be believed).

It doesn't do that, don't believe WoW forum goers

.

Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.

Idk · 01/04/08, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.

The lifetap ratio between 0/21/40 and 7/X/41+13 is very close. 0/21/40 has better DPM for the one spell shadowbolt because of the 15% buff. The 7/X/41+13 build, however, replaces some SB casts with higher mana efficiency (and better dpct) spells of immolate and corruption relative to the shadowbolt without 15% from DS. Plus, the spec has lifetap. Bottom line, the lifetap ratio is extremely close between both specs.. close enough that I'd call it functionally identical at my gear level (I've confirmed this with both my own simulator and modifying the spreadsheet to include shadowfury).

The imp comes with shadowfury regardless of how you spend your 20 points outside of the initial 41 in destruction. I'm not sure what other pet you would use and sacrifice isn't an option.

Silverstorm · 01/04/08, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

Classes that consistently top DPS charts? You mean, other than warlocks?

In my experience, at your progression and gear level, only the best equipped rogues can keep up with destrolocks.

Our mages were able to keep up and even regularly surpass us poor warlocks with their 2t5 Arcane bonuses combined with a SP/Ele Shaman, while us poor locks got neither on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by awakened

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.

If that's the case, your RL needs to wake up and smell the flowers. Affliction locks shine on multi-target encounters due to DPCT of UA/Corr/CoA. I can run two or three stacks of DoTs and have time left to Bolt the main target. You might try reminding him that any damage dealt to secondary targets is less time spent on that target when it becomes the primary target. I know UA + Corr deals more damage in 3 seconds of cast time than 1.2 shadowbolts will for affliction locks, provided the DoTs run full duration (which they will on off-targets).

Even our SP/Boomkins will dot a secondary target. It's typical for me to tab to the second target and see 10-15 dots ticking away while the primary target gets the burn.

PSGarak · 01/04/08, 8:44 PM

Minor nitpick: Shadowfury doesn't not have a global cooldown, it just has a 0.5s global cooldown so it doesn't matter. This tends to be true of all sub-1.5s cast spells (which is to say, warstomp shadowfury hammer of wrath).
There are several times in ZA where I wish I had a stun. Most of them involved dragonhawk trash or dragonhawk boss. It is in fact quite an awesome talent, it's just that 15% damage is a crapton to give up and the situations where you can really make use of it are few and far in between in any sort of raiding situation. Which makes me sad, because I think it's a really cute spell, and I like anything that breaks up the monotony of the otherwise-simplistic nuke-spam destro spec. If you can find a way to make it work well or a situation where it really shines I would love to hear about it.

galzohar · 01/04/08, 9:12 PM

Shadowfury shines in any aoe fight. However those are not enough to warrant the dps loss - even on those fights where it's good it's not worth the 15% dmg loss (with the possible exception of the dragonhawk boss since it's not really a dps fight but not getting killed by the hawks is sweet).

Idk · 01/04/08, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Shadowfury shines in any aoe fight. However those are not enough to warrant the dps loss - even on those fights where it's good it's not worth the 15% dmg loss (with the possible exception of the dragonhawk boss since it's not really a dps fight but not getting killed by the hawks is sweet).

It's not a 15% damage loss, this is the first major misconception.

Yes, you lose 15% shadow damage for your shadow bolts. With 20/0/41 you gain instant corruption, imp lifetap, amp curse, emp corr, and nightfall.. on top of shadowfury which, completely ignoring the aoe aspect of it, is still a considerably higher dpct spell than shadowbolt. I will not deny that 0/21/40 is better than any build that involves 41 in destruction for a stand and cast, but I think it's a misconception that a shadowfury build is 15% worse than a destro build that involves demonic sacrifice. My work with the spreadsheet and my damage simulator puts the difference at ~8% for pure stand and cast fights.

Under almost no circumstance would I take an 8% damage hit. However, I do believe that the damage potential of a shadowfury build specifically in a ZA timed event raid may be better than 0/21/40.. but that's because 1. not all boss fights are stationary casting, and 2. shadowbolt spamming is very inefficient for multi-mob fights. I can think of tons of places where a ranged stun can improve things..

1. Bear trash: contributing to the stunlocking of the totem guys that put up the immunity totem
2. Bear trash: keeping my fear target in place to reapply fear for the pull immediately before bear (we have no mages to sheep them)
3. Eagle fight: is it possible to hit any birds while hitting him with the shadowfury?
4. Eagle fight: having a damage spell to cast on the run after bubbling up for the storm (since tapping here is not a good idea)
5. Lynx trash: contributing to stunlocking the tamers to minimize mind control
6. Lynx fight: stunning the lynx trash at the boss when they pop up to make it stupid simple for the OT to pick them up
7. Firehawk trash: being able to solo the scouts from range (shadowbolt + shadowfury + shadowbolt/sp/immo/shadowburn)
8. Firehawk trash: helping stunlock flamecasters, particularly if you have the bad luck to get 3+ flame casters on the pull before firehawk
9. Firehawk boss: fairly obvious
10. Generically, the instance is full of aoe pulls and we use a prot pally to tank. Seed does great damage but the dpct of shadowfury is even better because of its extremely short cast time.

What I need to find out is how useful this utility is. I also need to find out how shadowfury is affected by ISB. I assume it consumes a charge but there's always the chance that it doesn't.

galzohar · 01/04/08, 10:41 PM

For timed ZA, I highly doubt this utility will help more than +8% dmg.

• Suggestive · 01/04/08, 10:42 PM

For most of the scenarios you listed, shadowfury provides at best marginal utility, and would not make any serious dent in how they are handled. I'm not sure that utility justifies the DPS loss you show, but at the end of the day its your choice.

Arelenda · 01/04/08, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Idk

It's not a 15% damage loss, this is the first major misconception.

Yes, you lose 15% shadow damage for your shadow bolts. With 20/0/41 you gain instant corruption, imp lifetap, amp curse, emp corr, and nightfall.. on top of shadowfury which, completely ignoring the aoe aspect of it, is still a considerably higher dpct spell than shadowbolt.

....(cut)...

What I need to find out is how useful this utility is. I also need to find out how shadowfury is affected by ISB. I assume it consumes a charge but there's always the chance that it doesn't.

Considering Shadowfury does trigger global cooldown, for purposes of dpct it should be considered as having 1.5 seconds casting time. There is no way it can outdo a destrolock's Shadow Bolt on dpct.

Of course it uses ISB charges, unless it's bugged. Feel free to try it and see if it doesn't, easily tested.

As for the original question:
I personally like Shadowfury a lot. It's nifty and fast and has a very low cooldown, and it allows you to do a lot of stuff warlocks typically can't, like ranged stuns/interrupts. The dps loss is probably around 10% indeed. You do gain Bloodpact and imp lifetap, both definite bonuses in ZA.

Whether it's worth it: up to you, really. The tradeoff is raw firepower vs control, so the answer will no doubt be subjective.

galzohar · 01/05/08, 12:17 AM

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Shadowfury

While thottbot isn't exactly the "omg-reliable" information, it had been correct regarding global cooldowns for other spells (for example HoW having 0.5s, and shield block having none).

• Suggestive · 01/05/08, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

It doesn't do that, don't believe WoW forum goers

.

Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.

Yup, just tried it on Durn the hungerer a few hours ago and it definitely doesn't consume the charges. I can't begin to say just how much i hate myself for believing that tripe for even a minute.

Ammanas · 01/07/08, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Silverstorm

Our mages were able to keep up and even regularly surpass us poor warlocks with their 2t5 Arcane bonuses combined with a SP/Ele Shaman, while us poor locks got neither on a regular basis.

I can usually out-DPS the arcane mages and their ele shaman, of course we have two shadow priests so I almost always have that. On fights where we use CoR I can keep up with our sword rogues, but usually get out-dps'd by one or two of them. Our BM hunter also does some really nice DPS on the CoR fights (assuming they are pet friendly). FYI we are 5/5 6/9, but progressed pretty fast so we aren't that geared (our mages are still arcane, the raid has mostly T5 gear with a couple of T6 drops).

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.

As far as tab dotting, talk to your raid leader. There is no reason not to DoT up tanked trash, explain to him that its actually beneficial: if you were to just DoT the main target and start SBing and crit you'd probably pull aggro. I know if I don't spend the first seconds of trash pulls throwing CoA on the other tanked targets and just start DPSing the first target I'm probably going to pull. And as an affliction lock, its even more beneficial for you're overall damage.

PSGarak · 01/07/08, 4:42 PM

There are very particular fights where one trash mob in a pack absolutely needs to die right the hell now. Most trash packs do not have such a mob, and is in fact boring enough that a DPSer can ignore its special abilities. In situations like this, the only thing that matters is how fast the pack as a whole dies, and multiple targets lets us take advantage of DoTs' higher DPCT. Educate your raid leader.