I can usually out-DPS the arcane mages and their ele shaman, of course we have two shadow priests so I almost always have that. On fights where we use CoR I can keep up with our sword rogues, but usually get out-dps'd by one or two of them. Our BM hunter also does some really nice DPS on the CoR fights (assuming they are pet friendly). FYI we are 5/5 6/9, but progressed pretty fast so we aren't that geared (our mages are still arcane, the raid has mostly T5 gear with a couple of T6 drops).
We usually have 2-3 SP as well...but me being affliction means I'm in the MT group, which usually consists of MT buffing, rather than warlock DPS buffing. I'm also the lone Malediction lock, so I volunteer my CoS to the raid. That said, VE could be useful in that group to provide a nearly constant source of healing for the tank. Unfortunately, our healers/arcane mages steal all the SPs.
We're at 4/5 3/9, and have cleared that for 3 weeks now (plus a couple more weeks in Hyjal on just the earlier bosses while we finished attunements).
To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
Ha, if someone has both they either have a very lucky guild, or is hated by their guild mates.
But to point, they are basically the same in terms of DPS, there are lots of possible gear combinations mentioned several pages back I believe. They difference was negligible.
In practice, the +hit on Tempest may go to waste, but on the other hand, haste bonus can be difficult to make use of.
It hit capped otherwise with zero hit gems, Zhar'doom is better. However, that is quite a bit of hit to have in other slots.
Haste is always useful, since every spec casts Shadow Bolt.
I agree with rochan, a caster with both weapons (unless healers had them too), would be hated by their guild, I doubt anyone is that lucky.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
A fairly accurate theorycrafting exploration of the raid DPS impact of one utility affliction lock.
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.
Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.
Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
While you are right that I didnt take it into account, the T6 profile still has 20.56% crit to shadow bolt, which isnt nearly nothing. This is part of the reason I ignored that aspect, in that the itemization away from damage is unavoidable.
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.
Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
Agreed.
Shadow Embrace and an imp are great. I think it goes without saying a raid with one affliction warlock is best off. Even on farm kills stuff can go bad occasionally.
That said:
- Malediction is not 3% more shadow damage, it's 113% instead of 110%.
- ISB uptime is not negligible. Affliction locks have 3% less crit, focus their gear less around crit, and cast less SBs. Hard to model though, although nice attempts have been made by Leulier.
- In addition, I don't like the "this % of raid damage is physical so we save on healing" argument. If you're going to argue that SE is beneficial, I'd go for "it mitigates spike damage, which is what kills tanks". Any string of hits that kills a tank is bound to have a very large physical component, unless it is a gimmick designed to one shot people.
Whether an affliction warlock ups dps is hard to determine. I doubt he does, but I don't consider that very relevant. I'd go for the general statement: "good enough dps with perks". Ask a tank what gear he'd need to get 1000 extra hit points and -5% physical damage.
The affliction tree has very little leeway requiring 42-44 points to maximize its dps (and threat reduction) ignoring CoA and all utility (counting malediction as "dps" and not "utility" of course - by utility I mean CoEx, drain life and the likes), with the 2 "optional" points being the range increase. The destruction tree pretty much requires 17 points as spending any less will hurt your and your raid's dps more than it'll help.
This pretty much leaves you with 1-3 points to play with. Would the improved imp for better tank buffs be worth the range loss? I'm a big fan of range, then again I'm a big fan of stacking the tank with buffs whenever possible so he doesn't die. And going with range last point could go into either CoEx or at least 1/3 improved imp, leaning towards imp as CoEs is hardly useful past vashj as far as I know, and even on vashj it has useful alternatives. Also there's the option of getting 1-2 points in intensity for pushback prevention (1 without losing range, 2 require losing at least 1 point from the range talent).
How would you go with the very few points you do have the option to choose what to do with in the affliction tree?
Yeah, the math is wrong as someone pointed out, its not a 3% increase. However, its still CLOSE to a 3% increase, which means the generalities of the post are still intact.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
Those are the 30 actual raid-DPS talents in the tree, ignoring shadow embrace and CoA and picking up range, threat, and malediction, if you're hit-capped. The only things I would say are basically required for a raid build are improved lifetap and shadow embrace, but that's still only 37. There's more room in there for personalization and utility than you're giving it credit, so long as it's coming from within the affliction tree.
3 of 110 is 2.7~%, which is 1/11 less than 3%. Possibly less, if improved shadowbolt and shadoweaving stack additively. Still, it's reasonably close that any qualitative conclusions are well-supported.
I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it.
shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53
Whilst the numbers show that the queried spec is less damage than the optimal, I do think that the results are skewed in favor of long static fights. As you said, theres a lot of trash in ZA, and its the trash that needs to be dropping fast. I would imagine that over short fight timings(10-15 sec), your build will do considerably better than the numbers show.
I would think that the drop in boss damage would be compensated by the faster kills on trash along with the added utility. I guess the only way to find out is to test it and let us know.
There is also the feelgood factor to consider, whilst wringing out every last 0.01 DPS with concrete sequences that have been meticulously calculated can put you at No1 on the meters, its not always suitable to your playstyle/enjoyment.
Whilst the numbers show that the queried spec is less damage than the optimal, I do think that the results are skewed in favor of long static fights. As you said, theres a lot of trash in ZA, and its the trash that needs to be dropping fast. I would imagine that over short fight timings(10-15 sec), your build will do considerably better than the numbers show.
I would think that the drop in boss damage would be compensated by the faster kills on trash along with the added utility. I guess the only way to find out is to test it and let us know.
There is also the feelgood factor to consider, whilst wringing out every last 0.01 DPS with concrete sequences that have been meticulously calculated can put you at No1 on the meters, its not always suitable to your playstyle/enjoyment.
"faster trash kills" I don't get. As has been shown over and over, any build with Shadowfury will be trading dps for control. This does not lead to faster trash kills since you do less damage. But ZA trash is about the worst simulation if you're comparing specs, anyway.
Please, stop bringing up the "but it does more/equal damage" argument. It doesn't.
I'm having deja vu: someone comes up with a talent build, and then decides that he has to convince everyone including himself it is the best for dps. I'm pretty tired of these jihads. Most of us have been through this with affliction vs destro and then the 30/21/10 spec. First we prove that it is inferior dps, then we get the argument about it being more fun.
It's a nice spec. I had it for a while, and it IS fun to play. The difference between that and 0/21/40 isn't all that big in terms of damage output. Distinctively less than 15%, probably near 7-10%. And it can shine in raids when it does work: ZA and Hyjal come to mind.
- ISB uptime is not negligible. Affliction locks have 3% less crit, focus their gear less around crit, and cast less SBs. Hard to model though, although nice attempts have been made by Leulier.
(...)
Whether an affliction warlock ups dps is hard to determine. I doubt he does, but I don't consider that very relevant. I'd go for the general statement: "good enough dps with perks". Ask a tank what gear he'd need to get 1000 extra hit points and -5% physical damage.
I think my latest "attempt" (version 1.19 with Raid ISB Model) can answer this question pretty well. Depending on your raid setup, an affliction lock can raise or lower your raid shadow dps (compared to an 0/21/40).
SE is the only reason you want an affliction lock in a raid. If you only want an imp, a 21/0/40 can do it as well, while maintaining a higher dps and a higher ISB uptime than an affliction lock
I see malediction more like a compensation for the lower dps of affliction lock than a real added utility, and Melladi's numbers confirm this.
I think my latest "attempt" (version 1.19 with Raid ISB Model) can answer this question pretty well. Depending on your raid setup, an affliction lock can raise or lower your raid shadow dps (compared to an 0/21/40).
SE is the only reason you want an affliction lock in a raid. If you only want an imp, a 21/0/40 can do it as well, while maintaining a higher dps and a higher ISB uptime than an affliction lock
I see malediction more like a compensation for the lower dps of affliction lock than a real added utility, and Melladi's numbers confirm this.
I downloaded that spreadsheet a couple times and I'm getting a lot of Error: 508's in OpenOffice. Anyone else having a similar issue?
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
Those are the 30 actual raid-DPS talents in the tree, ignoring shadow embrace and CoA and picking up range, threat, and malediction, if you're hit-capped. The only things I would say are basically required for a raid build are improved lifetap and shadow embrace, but that's still only 37. There's more room in there for personalization and utility than you're giving it credit, so long as it's coming from within the affliction tree.
37 points required, plus the 6 more in Tiers 2-3 to get to all the goodies. Your choices are Soul Siphon, Fel Conc, Amp Curse, Imp CoW and Imp CoA. I think arguments (not commenting on the quality) can be made for all them. The only time you'll be casting CoA is on off-targets, and even then not for long before you need to switch to CoS, so why not set it up the first time with CoS. That nixes Imp CoA. Imp CoW is taken care of by the DPS warriors and Imp Demo Shout. Soul Siphon is nice when the healers can't spare the time to heal. Fel Conc is nice for grinding and not being interrupted during the minimal active self-healing we do. Amp Curse...we aren't using CoA/CoD/CoEx...so it's unnecessary as well. If you're the Strider kiter...why are you wasting 12-15% of your time slowing the mob? Have someone else do that and focus on threat generation, especially while you're learning the fight.
So we have 43 required points for a raid build in Affliction, supported by a required 17 in Destro (assuming you want max range). That leaves one real point of personalization, whether it's Shadowburn, Imp HS (though the other locks have points to spare for that), or Imp Imp (since demo/destro have other pet priorities). To provide max raid utility, Imp Imp is the obvious choice, I think.
I'm finding Lock theorycrafting difficult to say the least. My guild is currently working on Kael'thas and I am working on which upgrades to get to help them.
Currently, my damage output is OK (always in the top 5 on the meters) but I'm kind of in a rut gear-wise as to what to pursue.
(Please, no cracks on the cloak or the gloves) I have my T4 and T5 gloves in the bank, but the biggest DPS improvement as of late that I have seen was switching to cap hit, as you can see I am. I know my crit is somewhat low for the SM/Ruin build I have, but with that being said, generally our WWS show my crit % on Sbolt to be in the 21% range in raids.
I have read a ton of information stating that the corrupter set is better, and the stats would indicate that, but I see a potential pratfall: the two-piece bonuses.
I'm considering pursuing the Cowl of the Grand Engineer and the Vestments of the Sea Witch from Vashj over bidding on another piece of Tier 5, because, frankly, I don't want to go Demo (we have an extremely proficient Demo lock as it is right now).
What I would like to see is a breakdown of how a T5 4-piece breaks down against the gear I have (just switching BACK to my T4 gloves for the two-piece bonus) with the T4 pants, with the Cowl of the Grand Engineer and the chest i have or the Vestments from Vashj (the cowl should make up for the loss of hit on the Handwraps of Flowing Thought, as the Voidheart Crown has no hit).
I can't figure it out, people say the proc rate on Shadow flame is less than 5%, however, then with my limited amount of spell dmg, I can't figure out how I am able to sustain my standing on the meters, despite the fact that other locks in our guild don't PVP in down time as much as I do (hence the Imp HoT), and have more points in contagion with more spell dmg and crit than I, if the proc rate is indeed that low.
I can see how the big increase in Stam, hit, and crit would benefit a Demo lock, but I still can't figure out if I really wasted DKP on those T5 gloves that I have in the bank at this point.
I mean in all honesty, it would be a great PVP set, except for the fact that there's 0 resilience (which trumps all at this point, IMO).
My apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere and for my overall noobness with not being able to link items in HTML (I suck at websites).
I find this disturbing on many levels because I feel Blizz is pigeonholing me to a spec for maximum output...and that spec ain't mine......
I find this disturbing on many levels because I feel Blizz is pigeonholing me to a spec for maximum output...and that spec ain't mine......
Assuming there were debuff slots, specing UA would give you more damage than Ruin.
BTW, Tier 5 gloves would be a buff on non-bosses.
Every class a its best damage spec, and it isn't your spec.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Assuming there were debuff slots, specing UA would give you more damage than Ruin.
BTW, Tier 5 gloves would be a buff on non-bosses.
Every class a its best damage spec, and it isn't your spec.
I am aware of this. The delivery is the problem. I have found DPS to be consistent with my spreadsheet that UA would be higher DPS by about 20 DPS. The problem is that the lack of destructive reach and Ruin end up forcing me into situations that ultimately force me to stop renewing UA due to the mechanics of the fight (Hydross, Leo) where being able to get two more Sbolts off helps.
In addition, not having Ruin made the inner demons on Leo a total PITA....
I run the EJ spreadsheet, btw.
I also understand that the T5 pieces would be a buff on non-bosses, but at the same time, I have no problem grinding as it is.
I like having the utility of being at max range and not moving for both Sbolt and my Dot refreshments.
A fairly accurate theorycrafting exploration of the raid DPS impact of one utility affliction lock.
From the above post
" So a little less than half of all damage was physical, probably typical of a majority of BT fights. So how much less damage would the tanks have taken with 5/5 shadow embrace up?
1,267,560 * 0.05 = 63,378 which is 2.4% of the total raid damage taken.
In terms of healing, thats 15 Holy Light's or 40 Flash of Light's or (insert breakdown for other healers here), which could go to a needy raid member, to keep them healing or DPSing."
I think the above conclusion is wrong. The damage reduction via SE will not result in 100% mana or time spent savings for healers since there will always be a significant amount of overhealing.
"faster trash kills" I don't get. As has been shown over and over, any build with Shadowfury will be trading dps for control. This does not lead to faster trash kills since you do less damage.
For single target, stand-and-cast fights it has been proven that shadowfury trades dps for control. How many trash pulls are there in ZA that consist of a single mob? I will concede that for fights with larger groups of mobs, seed of corruption is the right choice. I know that SoC isn't the right spell for two targets and I'm not convinced it's the right choice for three targets. I'd say the majority of trash pulls in ZA involve attacking 2-3 mobs at the same time with each mob dying at fairly disparate times.
Sadly I haven't run ZA since I postulated about shadowfury in the first place.. ideally I'll be doing it this evening.
But ZA trash is about the worst simulation if you're comparing specs, anyway.
Yes, ZA is the worst simulation for comparing specs unless you're comparing specs specifically FOR running ZA. After all, we're theorycrafting to improve our performance in the game.. we're not theorycrafting for the sake of theorycrafting. At least that's what I'm doing.
Why would an affliction warlock spec into lifedrain/fel concentration over nightfall? Granted nightfall is a small dps increase, but it's a dps increase while lifedrain and fel concentration aren't unless you don't run with healers in your raid...
01/07/08, 4:43 PM
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