Trickykid

For the most part, stunning mobs is bad for tanking since it reduces rage-generation. Also, while there are many multi-mob pulls in ZA, there should be CC on them too, making SF even more situational.

 

Bogeywoman

I've been every spec, and I keep coming back to 7/44/11.With my PVE gear (3T5, hitcap, ~1100 damage), I do more aggregate damage with that spec than with 0/21/40 in actual SSC/TK clears.

I think it's because of the movement requirement.

Both 7/44/11 and 0/21/40 allow you to keep your head up and scanning far more than 4x/xx/xx does due to the lowered minmax dot refresh requirements, which is a bonus -- but 7/44/11 features a buffable dot that keeps ticking, added survivability due to the shared damage pool, an emergency 2 second stun on adds, amplified +damage totals (fully buffed I'm over 1600), which play really well against the multiplicative debuffs, and most importantly of all, reduced average cast time. Since you're still throwing in corruption and immolate, you're spending about an average of 2.2 seconds casting as opposed to 2.5.

I can't explain it with math, but this extra 15% of the time that I can be moving seems to increase the amount of time that I'm using global cooldowns aggressively. I guess if you imagine a case where an arbitrary movement-requiring interrupt comes in, and you're 0/21/40 and your curse is already up, there's nothing for you to do but cancel and move, where it's more likely that the 7/44/11 is in global cooldown off a dot cast and can move immediately.

 

Idk

0/21/40 is unquestionably the highest dps spec for stand-and-cast-single-target damage at the high end gear level. Let me say that again: 0/21/40 is unquestionably the highest dps spec for stand-and-cast-single-target damage at the high end gear level. However, can you really say that 100% of encounters fit this description? Respecs are too cheap not to optimize for specific instances if they benefit from an offspec that may be inferior for the typical stand-and-cast-single-target encounters.

Given that 0/21/40 is thoroughly discussed and understood, I really don't see anything wrong with discussing alternate specs and strategies for specific encounters. After all, we're theorycrafting to improve performance... we're not theorycrafting to further support our simulated models. If I can conclusively produce better performance in ZA with shadowfury, is there any reason why I shouldn't do that?

If I run some numbers, postulate some ideas, present them here for critique, try it out in practice, and find that it doesn't work out.. are we all stupider because of it? I don't believe so.. I believe that everyone interested and following the discussion will understand our class just a little bit better. We'd know conclusively that for that specific encounter (and encounters like it) spec X just isn't superior. What happens if I'm right, though? I'll have found, with the help of this board, a better way to do a specific encounter.. something that's important to me. I wouldn't have brought up shadowfury if I saw the numbers presented somewhere on this site.. however, I haven't seen it. Why is it so bad to discuss something like this? 30/21/10 is different because it's been brought up many times and there's clear evidence if you look through old posts that it's not a superior spec. Please, point me to the shadowfury in ZA discussion so I can feel good about going back and deleting my previous posts. In fact, point me to any real numbers involving shadowfury on this site for any encounter. I've searched extensively and found nothing.

As maintainer of the warlock thread about PVE raiding, I find it shameful that you're so resistant to any theory that assume is incorrect or because it doesn't involve a scenario that you're interested in. Not everyone's running BT. Not everyone's in T6.

It's precisely these approximations and anecdotal statements that this board tries to shy away from. You can't tell me that results from a spreadsheet intended for a long duration encounter of a single target will actually provide realistic data for short duration fights of small groups of mobs. If you're not interested in doing that math, that's fine.. but it's infuriating to say that it's not worth doing that math because you don't believe it's better.. especially when you don't have any real evidence to support that statement.

 

Idk

Yes, both good points.

1. I'd like to think that a 2s stun isn't significant enough to matter. It's the opening cheap shot that really hurts tank threat/rage generation, in my opinion. However, it's something I'll look out for. I've still never actually used shadowfury.

2. I agree that things should be CCed. However, our raid has very limited humanoid CC (no rogues, no mages).. we're limited to our shadowpriest with mind control, where AOE doesn't hurt. In addition, we work with a prot pally MT so it's faster for us to tank all the trash at once and try to do as much parallel DPS as is practical.

 

Trickykid

If you're killing the mobs simultaneously, you're probably better off with affliction and maintaining a high DPCT multi-dotting. Gaining control from a 2s stun on CD isn't an effective long-term strat. If your guild is going to push for the timed event, you shouldn't be relying on SF at all -- your tanks and CC should have the place burned into their brains and let DPS max out.

It might be useful for learning ZA for the first time, but if you're aiming at farming the timed rewards, y'all should know what you're doing.

 

Idk

UA spec is great for killing multiple mobs if they live a long time. The DPCT of the dots are quite high as long as the dots run their full course. However, it's not unusual for the first mob to die within 18 seconds.. let alone 24 or 30. I find it hard to get better trash DPS numbers from UA than from 0/21/40, notably because it's extremely difficult to have both high dot uptime AND high dot DPCT. A mob that lives for 24 seconds may have 100% uptime from UA because of 2 casts, but ultimately 3 seconds of casting were spent to provide only 24 seconds of dot damage instead of the full 36 seconds that those casts would otherwise provide.

On top of this, I believe UA provides inferior DPS for boss fights in ZA relative to both 0/21/40 and shadowfury builds. I've personally experienced the difference between UA and 0/21/40, my simulation predicts that shadowfury is also better.

 

deneba

Woo hoo, I have my two-piece Tier 5 bonus and my Solarian trinket!

I'm torn between two similar specs for SSC and TK (all bosses but Vashj and Kael, at whose doorsteps we have arrived), and I could use some advice. Both assume a soul-linked felguard out and about, at least on fights where it makes sense. For context, the raid has two other warlocks, one heavy affliction and one heavy destruction. I'm Demonology for Leotheras whom we've just gotten down recently (so I have no desire to rock the boat and change) and outside of that role am looking to simply make a strong contribution.

The first is a 7/44/10 spec that takes instant corruption and 2/2 improved lifetap, plus ISB and Bane.

The second is a 0/44/17 that loses the Affliction talents but adds Devastation and Destructive Reach.

I guess I'm trying to weigh the intangibles of instant Corruption vs. the 5% bonus to SB crits. Also, I'm trying to weigh Improved Lifetap vs. Destructive Reach. Both comparisons seem more qualitative than quantitative (the spreadsheet doesn't address intangibles all that well) so I was hoping for some advice on what would make more sense. I've currently gone the 0/44/17 route.

 

PSGarak

SE is being modeled inappropriately, true. 5% Damage reduction is almost exactly equivalent to 5% stamina increase on the tank along with 5% healing increase on the healers*. The error was in theorycrafting it in terms of mana consumption (or mp/5) instead of as a +heal function, which is just as easy to calculate, much more resilient to fight length, and reflects the actual change going on. As you mention it is subject to all the restrictions on benefitting from +stam and +heal effects, so it's probably best to let the healers decide just how good that is. Most of them will tell you it doesn't save full heals, but the equivalent of 70-100 stamina on the tank and at least +100 healing on every healer (on a phys damage-only fight) is, I'm sure, appreciated.

*It is exactly equivalent to a 1/19 = 5.26315789473684210~% increase to stamina and healing. If you need an explanation of the number, or why this is an accurate model, just ask.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Arelenda

Well, in my opinion, instant corruption is not even remotely close to 5% crit. If you really must, you can put one point in it and get a 1.6 cast, which is 0.1 slower than the GCD one. But I'd probably not even bother with that.

 

Jimad

I'd like to ask a question or two about the 01/39/21 build. My 4th piece of T5 is just around the corner, and I'm pretty intrigued by this option. I *think* I might like to try taking advantage of both set bonuses this tier armor provides. In this gear, I'd have about 1200 spell damage completely unbuffed (no FA), spell hit would be capped, with ~25% crit. My concern is about pet management.

Obviously, raiding with the succubus would be my first choice, due to the 10% increase in damage she provides through MD. Is her physical dps on a boss required to really make this build work, or can she just be parked in a corner, fully raid buffed, and completely out of harms way? This (in most cases) would allow me to take advantage of her MD buff, SL, and Demonic Knowledge, but not really concern myself too much with her well being (assuming 2-piece T5 bonus takes care of the damage she incurs through SL damage). Never having raided with an active, dpsing pet before, I have little confidence that I could actually excel at the micro-managing required to keep her alive.

Does a fully raid buffed and phase-shifted Imp make any sense whatsoever with this build?

If excellent pet management is required with a build such as 01/39/21 (or any non-Felguard demo build variations), and I don't have faith that I'm "the guy for the job", should I just pitch alot of my T5 out the window, in favor of more "UA friendly" gear (more outright spell damage and less crit)?

Thank you.


P.S. Currently 6/6 SSC & 3/4 TK

 

tdx

I notice the OP mentions Chaotic Skyfire Diamond as the best meta gem choice for destruction warlocks, which confuses me. Perhaps my 'back of the napkin' math is wrong but Mystical Skyfire Diamond seems much stronger.

For example. In our last Supremus kill my average non-crit shadowbolt damage was 3,822. The fight was 460 seconds long and Mystical Skyfire proc'd 8 times, which is about one proc per 57.5 seconds. On each proc MSD reduced my next shadowbolt from 2.5s to 1.5s cast time, which is an extra 1,528.8 damage.

CSD would increase my critical strike bonus damage from 100% to 103%, which means in order to match the damage that MSD is contributing I would have to do 100,191.2 points of critical strike damage in the same amount of time (counting the entire crit damage, not just the bonus).

0.03 * x = 1528.8
x = 1528.8 / 0.03 = 50,860

50,860 + (50,860 - 1,528.8) = 100,191.2 (which is the total damage needed to be done from critical strikes for an extra 3% critical strike bonus damage to equal 1528.8, the damage MSD contributed).

That means my critical strike damage alone would have to contribute 1769 dps, which doesn't seem likely. Is the extra 12 crit rating from CSD making up the difference? Because it seems like to large a gap for 12 crit rating to fill.

 

ninielin

Math is incorrect:

hit = 100% , normal crit = 150%, ruined crit = 200%, CSD + ruine = 209%. not 203.

 

Fafhrd

Your concerns would be correct if the critical strike damage bonus was 3%. But with Ruin it's actually 9%. It increases base crit damage from 150% to 154.5% (3%), and double that for Ruin: 209%. This can easily be verified by checking some combatlogs on Wow Web Stats.

Edit: ninielin beat me.

 

tdx

How can I easily verify it? Does anyone have a link to a post where testing was done to verify that it adds 9% not 3%?

 

Lianya

Forgive me if this is a forbidden question. I've been reading through this thread, and it's really awesome. The amount of information here is tremendous.

I've been away from the game for a while, but I've started to play (raid) again. The spec I have is NOT the right one (or even a good one), so I've been trying to figure out what makes sense for my level of gear. (Current level is Kara/Gruul/Mag). The guild is currently in SSC/TK, having killed up to Tidewalker and Solarian.

It seems like either Affliction or Demonology. I've been thinking about switching to Demonology; however I don't want to end up with a spec that doesn't help out the guild. The other warlocks in the raid are a bit better geared than I am, due to my absence.

As experts, any info you have would be appreciated, thanks a ton for your time. I'm still reading through the thread, but so far the choice isn't clear to me. Sorry if I missed something, it's a very large thread.

EDIT: Thought I would add some quick stats to help, obviously based on current spec.
Bonus Damage (No Fel Armor): 873
Bonus Damage (Fel Armor): 1003
Hit Rating: 108
Crit Chance: 15.87%
Penetration: 0
Hit Points (No Blood Pact): 9507
Hit Points (Blood Pact): 10578

 

Crepe

If you have a non-rage based tank like a paladin, the stun won't matter nearly as much (or at all, really).

I think there might have been a post in the PTR discussion about CSD?

 

Lovecraft

Just to nip a quick point in, paladin tanks are inversely affected by stuns on their tank targets as a portion of their threat (especially if it's not their actual target) is reactive damage - Holy Shield, Retribution Aura (if used), and you could argue Reckoning 'up-time'. Obviously SoR/SoV and Consecration are still working, it's analogous to your warrior/feral having rage in the bank.

Minor point and mildy off-topic, but I thought it was worth a mention.

 

LockApologist

Actually, stuns are bad for paladins as well.

Assuming ~300 +dmg:

A good % of tankadin threat is from Holy shield procs (~500 per block), which obviously don't happen from a stunned mob. Versus ~200 per swing of SoR or up to 200 tick of Consecrate (depending on rank, usually less as max rank is usually too mana intensive for trash).

Having a tanking pally myself, unless I need the mob stunned to reduce damage to make it survivable, I ask they not be stunned, if possible.

Coupled with the number of casters in ZA (as I believe that's what the SF discussion started on), block threat is already low.

This ignores that stunning mobs reduces dmg incoming, increasing the likelihood of OOM (pally form of rage starvation).

Not that you shouldn't use SF, if you've spec'd it. But, the stun is not a benefit of SF, from the tanks perspective.

 

Stran

I would get the leuler spreadsheet and plug in your numbers and then play with the specs and cast rotations. That would give you the definitive answer. Based on where your guild is at, I would say Affliction would be your best bet. Your hit is very low and affliction suffers the least from it. Your spell damage is also low, try getting more through tailoring and gemming etc.

Demo is very viable in SSC and I have reached 1700 dps with it in T5 gear. The problem with Demo is it can outshine all other specs on some fights, but it suffers horibly on others (Azgalor, Archimonde, Najentus, Gurtog) and is vulnerable to accidental pet damage on others (Supremus P2 for one). Since you are not in T6 raids yet, Demo will work for you quite nice too. You will be more impacted by your low hit than if you were affliction, but you will make up for it with the pet and much higher spell damage.

 

Gumibear

It has to do with the positioning of the talents. Even with 5/5 Suppression, you'll need to take 1 filler point to get to the 4th tier of Affliction talents. Grim Reach and Empowered Corruption look more appealing than Nightfall to me, and taking 2 points in Nightfall after that doesn't leave enough points to max Shadow Embrace and Malediction. If you only went 17 in Destruction and didn't take Improved Imp, you would have enough points, but I never want to play a build in BT that does not include Intensity, meaning I'd need 19 in Destruction and I'd only have 1 point left over after getting UA. Perhaps if I dropped Dark Pact I could still pick up 2/2 Nightfall without losing any raid utility talents, but a lot of Affliction Warlocks feel more comfortable having a secondary source of mana.

 

Lianya

Would you say that Intensity isn't something really needed until BT? I was curious as to why the 'default' Afflication spent in the first thread had 2 points in that, instead of putting them in to something like Shadow Embrace. If you weren't in BT, would you put those points elsewhere?

I also assume that Improved Howl isn't useful to get for PvE. It's _occasionally_ nice, but not something I see a lot of use in for raiding.

 

• Emolate

They really do need to do the spreadsheet, or even the Warcrafter Sandbox to model a proposed spec.

I do not agree that they would make up for it with a minion and increased spell damage.

But that hit rating is awful and needs some serious work before moving into Demonology in my opinion. The only Demonology build I would consider would be 0/40/21, and since this person will be missing with their Shadowbolts all the time, I don't see the point. I think being the Malediction Mule for the raid as they gear themselves would be the best route to go.

I had great damage output in 0/40/21, but this is largely because I was hit-capped.

Jimad asked: Demonology builds at high-damage gear levels is well served having the Imp out due to the fantastic threat reduction it gives. You can't get 20% threat reduction anywhere else, too bad it takes 10 talent points to get it.

 

Shai

Easy to test yourself. Install Dr. Damage, compare the expected crit values (the mod assumes 209% crits) with your own numbers for a spell like Immolate to see if they match. If they do, the multiplier is correct.

 

Lianya

I'm coming to the conclusion that I should stay afflication and be the Malediction mule as well. I can improve my +hit by changing out some of my gems. Made some bad choices early on for stupid reasons. The Robe of Oblivion will be replaced very soon with the T4 Robes, as I'm next in line for that, so those gems will dissapear.

Seems like, in the pants, I should get rid of those + crit yellows and put in the + hit ones asap. Once I get enough +hit from pure gear, then I can start re-gemming and looking for more + crit in order to repec.

I do need to switch over to Imp Shadowbolt though, so I'm just trying to iron out a few points. (My last post asks about Intensity vs. Shadow Embrace, etc).

I really appreciate the input. It helps me to understand a lot of things better about my class and how I can be used to help our overall DPS.

 

Stran

Intensity is nice but by no means necessary, even in BT. Prior to BT, if you need to resist pushback, you would likely be casting seed anyways. I can think of very few fights where intensity would help (boss fights that is) Kara has a number of them (Prince, Netherspite, Imp tanking, Curator, Shade), SSC has only one where it truly helps, and that marginaly, which is Vashj. TK has Solarian (marginal again, only when being arcane missiled) and MH has none. If you are the tank warlock, it also helps on Capernian and Leo for TPS.

A lot of other bosses let you utilize the talent at times, but it's not that much of a benefit.