taybul

Your crit is still pretty low for destro so you probably do want to keep immolate up. When you break about 20% (25% with talent) crit you might want to stop using it since the chance for proc'ing ISB increases and immolate won't benefit from it at all. You'll start overlapping ISB procs and eventually have it up constantly boosting other shadow users' dps as well as your own even further.

End game destro locks don't even invest that many points in fire talents but rather put them in nether prot and/or soul leech.

 

Necrostar

I dodge all the fire related talents in my 0/21/40 build. I actually go 5/5 Cataclysm , 4/5 Aftermath , 2/3 Soul Leech & of course all the other standard Destro talents people take with this build. (Max ISB , Bane , Devastation , Ruin , Backlash , SnF) Since all I'm doing is casting shadowbolts there is no need to invest anything into fire. May as well reduce some mana , chance to stun trash , and less stress on healers.

Also another build I wanted to bring up which most remember is the old SM/Ruin. In my Kara/Gruul/Mag days I was a UA lock , but discovered I was obtaining more crit , hit , with = spell damage in the early stages of T5 content. I believe at this point Ruin > UA. I did something like a Dark Pact + Contagion + Ruin build which worked very effectively (36/4/21). I didn't feel quite ready to make the 0/21/40 jump since I was more like 150 hit / 22% crit. I feel it's a very viable build until your at 0/21/40 level gear which IMO is max hit / 25% crit minimum with talents.

 

galzohar

How many people in BT/hyjal actually have their T5 chest/head... Even if you can make it to vashj/kael with subpar dps, you'll probably move on and stop running them way before everyone have their T5 tokens. Not to mention there are no T5 boots at all. Getting FSW and spellstrike is the minimum of the minimum effort I would expect from a serious raider.

 

Spline

Let me tell you about my fire talents...

I take 5/5 Emberstorm and 3/3 Searing Pain for tanking. I take 0/3 Nether Protection for the same reason. I take 0/3 Soul Leech because when I'm not tanking, I don't need the extra threat from the heals. I take 2/2 Pyroclasm because stunning things never gets old.

I cast Hellfire on Hyjal trash. Constantly.

 

Stran

May I sugest going 3/3 Nether Protection? I take 0 in Aftermath as it's fairly useless in pve and marginal in pvp (and I never pvp in 21/40). I pick up 1 in Imp SP just for filler, as I do use SP in raids (Tanking frost wyrms etc) 3/3 in Nether protection have saved me in raids before.

I'll name some fights on top of my head where it helps:

MH Trash (marginal utility but has prevented some damage at least)
Anatheron (Infernal and Swarm are both covered under it. Obviously only works for swarm if infernal procs it. I THINK sleep is also shadow)
Azgalor (Rain of fire, not that you should ever be hit by it.)
Archimonde (Fear, Grip and Doomfire can all proc it) I've had fear proc it and run me through a doom fire unharmed. I've had a grip proc it and cause 0 damage for 4 ticks before my slow decurser got to me :P

BT: First true benefit was on Terron. Last kill it proced 15 times in a 5 minute fight.

Haven't been past here but I assume it could be usefull on RoS, Mother and Illidan.

Anyways, marginal utility but far better than 4/5 Aftermath IMO.

 

Stran

You do not need to be a tailor to have spellstrike. The bonus helps but is doable without. That covers helm. Also tinkering offers a better one, as does Fel reaver. Vashj and Kael drop a robe better than FSW, and I even wore Hydross robe prior to T5. Boots of Shifting Nightmare are IMO superior to FSW as they let you move to Destro. T6 also offers a number of easy to get good options (Blue Suede, Naj boots). And most guilds have T5 pants on majority of members before seeing T6. I have not worn my FWS since early SSC, with only the robe sticking around for a longer amount of time. And while the robe would be better than whats readily available, is that single upgrade worth 3k gold investment this late in progression? Likely not.

Even T4 robe, with an extra slot, it is 21 spell damage lacking compared to FSW. But it has 13 hit rating which equates to 17 spell damage according to my calculations. Is 4 damage worth the time and money necesary to invest in FSW when it will soon be replaced? Likely not. And if the robe is what gives you the 4pc or 2 pc bonus, all of a suden it is even better.

Robe of Hatefull Echoes closes the gap even further, although it has crit instead of hit so it's non-damage bonus is much more build dependent.

 

Necrostar

Your naming fights I have yet to do =] , My guild is 3/4 TK , 4/6 SSC . Just started working on Fathom-lord & of course still have yet to do Kael / Vashj. But, reading up on BT/Hyjal I can see where NP can be effective.

 

• Suggestive

If he's tanking, he doesn't want nether protection. Those points are a matter of choice, there really is no wrong place to put them in my opinion.

 

Stran

For tanking fights I go demo anyways but I do agree. While a /cancelaura on your SP macro helps a ton, it's still not optimal and trying to tank capernian with NP resulted in a quick run to Ironforge for a respec. However, all points are a matter of choice and I'm just providing some evidence that given you are not tanking, NP is better for raiding locks than 4/5 aftermath.

 

clavarnway

What is the opinion on Boots of Blasting vs FSW Boots for Destruction? Destro scales so damn well with +damage, they are pretty darn good even for Destro. Currently I have FSW with 2 Veiled Noble Topaz.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/1424974uXyta.png

 

Necrostar

Boots of Shifting Nightmare > Boots of Blasting > FSW Boots , IMO

If you have the crit then go Shifting Nightmare. Basically your giving up 25 crit for 20 spell damage with a stam boost. FSW has great spell power, but rather weak stats - so weak I'd have to pass. No substantial hit or crit either.

 

taybul

Hit is more important to you in the end and even if you can socket the FSW boots you should still go for blasting if nothing else, for the crit the FSW lacks.

 

Stran

They are very comparable. I chose blasting as my hit was lacking at the time, and the added crit helped ISB uptime. But both are solid choices.

 

Silverstorm

Not to mention the self-healing, which should easily cover any lifetaps you need. This is fight-dependent, of course. Mine generally ticks between 300 and 350 on a boss, dealing 3000-3500 damage over 30 seconds. For a cast time of 1.5 seconds, that's 2000-2333 DPCT. Shadowbolts would have to regularly hit for 5000-5833 to match that (and Affliction shadowbolts just won't).

 

doogless

If you're hit capped without your boot slot, FSW are better than Shifting Nightmare. In that same situation, I'd place FSW with 2 12 damage gems (81 total damage) over Boots of Blasting (39 damage and 25 crit). Obviously it depends on your other gear and how much spell hit rating the rest of your stuff has.

 

Necrostar

260 HP / 195 Mana / 18 Hit > 22 Spell Damage (even less if you have no access to BT gems)

I'd rather lose hit on another piece. You just get too good a itemization on Shifting Nightmare.

 

galzohar

Remember that even pre-T6, capping hit via gems is not hard if your other gear doesn't totally suck (like, you have stuff like CE exalted ring, aran wand, arena weapon etc). Once capped, assuming you're using 5 dmg 4 hit gems to reach that cap, gaining 4 hit rating on an item means 1 of those 5 dmg 4 hit gems can turn into a 9 dmg gem providing extra 4 spell dmg. This is far lower than the "I'm not hitcapped" spell dmg equivalent of hit, and is a more realistic way to look at it, as you *should* be hit capped even in pre-raid gear via gems. Even if your hit sucks so bad that you need 8 hit gems in gear to cap hit, you still only gain 5 dmg by gaining 4 hit from an item, still lower than your 1.3 dmg equivalent for 1 hit rating. The higher your gear level is the even worse hit rating becomes as you have more and better options you can use to cap hit.

 

Krazen

That's true, except warlock gear has an abundance of yellow slots and very few red ones. Making this gem switch probably costs you a socket bonus as well.

That said, hitcapping when you are at Hydross costs you a lot of crit/dmg through both gear selection and gems. The [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare] do allow you to swap out something like a [Scryer's Bloodgem]

 

• Sservis

Responding to post #340

In long fights, this will be shattering too late. Assume it's the W=1.6 case and a 10 minute fight with completely boringly uniform threat from both the warlock and the tank. The 1.6 case suggests the shatter should be done about 3:10 into the fight, and after that the warlock is indeed not threat capped. However the Shatter could be done as early as 2:19 into the fight and avoid being threat capped as reshatter will be possible at at 7:19.

Let w = the warrior's tps. After the first shatter, the warlock will have 1.3 * 139 * w / 2 threat. Before the second shatter the warlock will have an additional 1.6 * 300 * w threat. At the time of the second shatter, the warlock has a total of 570.35 * w threat, and the tank has 439 * w threat, and 439 * 1.3 = 570.7, and the warlock has yet to pull. By shattering 51 seconds earlier, the warlock achieves that much more time at 1.6 * w tps rather than 1.3 * w tps.

The case you overlooked was that in long fights, there's a fixed time before threat stops mattering, regardless of the fight time. In the W = 1.6 case, it's 7:19, and so first shatter is always at 2:19. Using your terminology this critical time is at 300 *(W - 1.3)/ .65 seconds. Due to this factor, fights longer than the critical time should be shattered at a specific timeframe into the fight, with followup shatters as needed.

I wrote up the rationale and derivation of the optimal times to use abilities (in fights that are long enough) in Optimal Threat Reductions (Vanish/Feign/Invis/SoulShatter) as it's more generally useful than just for Warlocks.

In general Warlocks should shatter at the first of your % and the times I've listed, although your % should likely be shaded a bit higher due to abilities and execute range making the last part of any bosses health go faster than the early parts.

 

Phantasie

On the topic of threat....Just a quick clarification. Soul leech heals do give the warlock threat?

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....it&s4=&s5=&v=2

 

• frmorrison

Just like other healing spells, this gives threat (it counts as 50% threat, plus modifies like salvation and likely the 10% threat talent as well will reduce it).

Mine has about 90% overheal, so the small 10% that it heals for is hardly any threat.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

galzohar

Remember it only gives threat when you actually need the heal. If you're threat capped on a remotely regular basis and on those fights soul leech healing doesn't do anything for survivability you should probably consider not speccing into it. Either if you spec into it or not, though, it's going to make a very small difference, both for healing and threat, as both would be very insignificant.

 

Kimmee

Azgalor's Rain of Fire and Archimonde's Doomfire do not proc Nether Protection. I think the silence in Azgalor procs it, which is what you probably had it mistaken for, and Grip and Fear definitely proc it on Archi. I suppose if it happens to already be up procced by a fear it could protect you from Doomfire, but unfortunately the fire itself doesn't proc it. Your best bet is to just stay away from Doomfire anyway haha.

It procs a lot on Mother though, and also in P2 Illidan. I don't think anything in RoS procs it....maybe the mana drain in P1, I can't really remember, but I know it does not proc from my own shadow damage in P2 or from the DoT in P3 where it would be really useful.

I take Nether Protection mainly because I don't ever have to tank anything, and there is nowhere else better to put the points really. It helps save a bit of healing here and there but it certainly isn't a vitally important talent to have.

 

• frmorrison

Correct, the two annoying things with long DoTs (if you get hit) that the talent does nothing for. Nothing on RoS will proc it either.

This talent is also very nice in BGs, there is a lot of Fire and Shadow damage going around.


I would have the talent, but I have do tank Caperian and Illidan sometimes so I picked imp Searing Pain for my throwaway talents (I use that spell more than Immolate, but still hardy ever).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

rochan

Speaking of tanking, I've noticed late game (4/5 t6 etc) 0/21/40 that SB spam out TPSs Searing pain. For example in Hyjal you can pull a Frost Dragon off a SP warlock with SBs.

Does the Leulier spreadsheet calc. TPS?