PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 4

Velict · 10/14/07, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by bzk

Alright so bascially I should still try and stack hit on my gear and respec out of suppression when I've got the correct amount of hit?

That is more or less the idea.

Bolche · 10/15/07, 2:36 AM

Incinerate and Shadowbolt gain the same from spell damage in a standard raid environnment, the only differences are ISB vs better mana efficiency (and ISB > mana efficiency).

Base coefficients :
SB : 85.6%
Inci : 71.4%

In a desctruction build, both SB and Inci gain +20% from S&F, fire gets x110% from emberstorm. And in a standard raid environnment, SB gets x110% from shadow weaving, inci gets x115% from improved scorch.

SB : (85.6+20)*1.10 = 116,16
Inci : (71.4+20)*1.15*1.10 = 115.62

Morghulis · 10/15/07, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Eph

Haste is 15.7 = 1%, right?
Curse of Recklessness, which bosses in BC have an ability based on melee damage?

As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.

Arelenda · 10/15/07, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Morghulis

As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.

Good point. Anyone have information on that?

Ujai · 10/15/07, 8:21 AM

One thing I would like to see is the math of CoD vs CoS/E/R in a rading environment, as our warlocks are rather reluctant to put up anyone but CoS.

Arveene · 10/15/07, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

Good point. Anyone have information on that?

The only bosses we *don't* use CoR on in BT/Hyjal are the following:

Azgalor, Bloodboil, Essence of Suffering, Shahraz, Illidan

Azgalor - He already hits pretty damn hard.
Bloodboil - We already get crappy fel rage targets, don't really want to make it any worse.
Essence of Suffering - Need to make sure he hits Fixate targets for as little as possible.
Shahraz - Obvious reasons
Illidan - I'm not 100% sure if we should put it up there or not. We recently had a change of MTs, so we're not going to try it quite yet - but may soon.

These are the only bosses I can think of off the top of my head where we don't use CoR normally.

Originally Posted by Ujai

One thing I would like to see is the math of CoD vs CoS/E/R in a rading environment, as our warlocks are rather reluctant to put up anyone but CoS.

It's actually really easy to do this. For elements and shadows usually if there are 2+ members who will benefit from them they should be put up.

As for the math it's pretty simple. Take the DPS of CoD and compare it to the total increase of DPS the raid will get from CoE. (Ex. CoD DPS = 100. 2 fire mages who do 1000 dps overall = 1000x2x10% = 200 DPS.) That doesn't even take into account less partial resists for the mages as well.

You can do the same exact math for CoS as well.

For CoR it gets a bit trickier and depends on the mobs armor. Once you figure out the mob's armor you do the same thing as you do to calculate CoE.

Crepe · 10/15/07, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Morghulis

As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.

For SSC/TK, we don't use CoR on the following bosses:

Hydross past 50% aura (I alternate between CoW and CoR)
Morogrim (though a druid MT seems to handle it fine)
Tidalvess (WF totem + CoR = bad news)
Al'ar phase 2 (missed taunt on melt armor = bad news)

We're still working on Kael, but CoR should be ok on all of the adds as well as Kael himself. I'd avoid CoR on the Kael trash that does the Arcane Flurry, as I like to use fear to interrupt that spell (though rogues have been getting better about gouging it).

For T4, I wouldn't use CoR on HKM or Mags unless your MT can take those nasty Cleave/Melee combos without much issue. CoR is bad news on Gruul past 7-8 grows.

EDIT: If we only have two warlocks, we usually prioritize CoS and then CoR. This is because there tends to be more shadow/arcane users in the raid (warlocks, spriests, moonkin, and arc mages) and physical DPS (rogues, hunters, warriors, feral druids, enh shaman, and ret pallies). Fire/frost users are exclusively mages and it's rare for us to have more than 2-3.

Silmeria · 10/15/07, 3:18 PM

CoR on Morogrim is fine, we do it all the time as do most raids (from my research going through other WWS parses). His damage output is increased slightly, and since it's just white attacks, it's pretty trivial.

CoR on Al'ar is fine, a hit on melt armor with CoR is roughly 700 damage more. Just be ready for it and you'll be alright. Al'ar dying faster = less meteors, less birds, and less chances for mistakes.

CoR on Tidalvess is fine too, it's a trivial amount of damage increase, it's just a bigger series, all mitigated.

The thing to remember about CoR is that it just effects the base AP, if it's not multiplied by anything (like cleave, or enrage, etc), then it's going to be fine.

CoR on everything that doesn't have a special attack pretty much, or if your melee DPS really isn't touching the mob.

• frmorrison · 10/15/07, 6:24 PM

For CoR, I use it on all bosses except Azgalor (due to silence, and the imp demo shout guy is tanking the demons) and Bloodboil (I use it most of the time, just remove during Fel Rage).

Everything else gets Recklessness, because with imp Demo Shout the attack power gain is very small.

Eph · 10/16/07, 11:29 AM

81.92 Int = 1% crit.

Stat values in comparison to each other:
Probably specify that dmg>crit for destruction.
Also from my tinkering with the spreadsheet, 1 haste isn't quite worth 1 dmg (1:0.97) this may just be for my specific gear and spec though, but I'd like to do/see some more concrete math on it, especially with the load of new haste items in 2.3.
And perhaps we should add a little more detail to our stat comparisons similar to how the rouge guide did it:

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP

Comparing two pieces of gear using this weighting should be fairly straightforward. Consider gem slots to be worth approximately 18 AP (23 AP if using Hyjal/BT gems) if you don't know exactly what gems you will be placing in them. Here's an example of comparing two pieces of gear using this weighting (assuming Blessing of Kings and rare gems):

Edgewalker Longboots
250 Armor (stats without direct DPS value can be weighted 0)
+29 Agility (29 * 2.2 = 63.8 AP)
+28 Stamina (0)
[ ] Red Socket (18 AP)
[ ] Yellow Socket (18 AP)
Socket Bonus: +3 Hit Rating (3 * 2.3 = 6.9 AP)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 13. (13 * 2.3 = 29.9 AP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 44. (44 AP)
Total: 63.8 + 18 + 18 + 6.9 + 29.9 + 44 = 180.6 AP

Boots of Utter Darkness
278 Armor
+34 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23. (23 * 2.3 = 52.9 AP)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 32. (32 * 1.6 = 51.2 AP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 66. (66 AP)
Total: 52.9 + 51.2 + 66 = 170.1 AP

This will differ between the three trees and a difference between t4 level and t6 level, but I think this is an area where a lot of warlocks over/under compensate.

Silverstorm · 10/16/07, 2:39 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our values vary widely by spec, given the relative crit of each build, as well as the larger emphasis on Stamina for Demo locks. The weighting to +hit and +crit also is impacted by our +dmg. About the best we have right now is the "Next Stat Value" section in Leulier's spreadsheet (linked in the original post).

Attack Power is quite linear and easy to model (from discussions I've had with a feral druid friend), whereas caster stats are very much interdependent.

Also, for CoR modeling, here's the posts you need:

Boss Armor: [RAID] Boss armor values
CoR benefit: http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html

These assume both Sunder and Faerie Fire are already up, so the increase is 5.69% (7700 armor bosses) or 6.36% (6200 armor bosses).

So, if PhysicalDPS * CoR_Reduction > CurseOfDoomDPS, do CoR on appropriate bosses.

Given a 10k Curse of Doom, here's the calculation to determine if physical DPS is high enough:

10000 / 60 = 166.66 DPS for CoD.
166.66 / .0569 = PhysicalDPS = 2929.115 on the higher armor bosses. For lower armor, same calculation, but .0636:
10000 / 60 / .0636 = 2620.545 Physical DPS

Even simpler, here's what you multiply CoD by to find the required physical DPS:

7700 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2929115 (or .293 to be easy)
6200 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2620545 (or .262 to be easy)

If physical DPS is higher than the result, use CoR. If not...go ahead with CoD, and your raid probably has more issues than CoD vs. CoR.

Eph · 10/16/07, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Silverstorm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our values vary widely by spec, given the relative crit of each build, as well as the larger emphasis on Stamina for Demo locks. The weighting to +hit and +crit also is impacted by our +dmg. About the best we have right now is the "Next Stat Value" section in Leulier's spreadsheet (linked in the original post).

True the best thing is the spreadsheet, maybe just make note emphasizing its use to determine gear choices. I guess I was originally thinking of making a sample gear set around the t4 range and another at the t6 range, going through the three main trees and writing out the values but I don't know how useful or accurate that would be.

Arelenda · 10/16/07, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Eph

True the best thing is the spreadsheet, maybe just make note emphasizing its use to determine gear choices. I guess I was originally thinking of making a sample gear set around the t4 range and another at the t6 range, going through the three main trees and writing out the values but I don't know how useful or accurate that would be.

The original poster is right, stats are weighted differently across specs and gear levels. They even differ with raid setup and per encounter. Being hit capped is very nice against bosses, but a huge waste for the majority of Hyjal, for example.

I wrote ShadowSeer to do just that: determine my personal benefit from each rating.

Example here.

Cohren · 10/16/07, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Arelenda

The original poster is right, stats are weighted differently across specs and gear levels. They even differ with raid setup.

I wrote ShadowSeer to do just that: determine my personal benefit from each rating.

Example here.

Thats a great mod and it seems very helpful. Is it available for download?

Eph · 10/16/07, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cohren

Thats a great mod and it seems very helpful. Is it available for download?

It's linked at the bottom of the first post. And yes, that does look like a great way to calculate stat values.