I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
There's other things to consider. For instance you have Shiffar's Nexus Horn equipped currently in your armory, I'm not sure if that's part of your raiding gear but if it is your gear will favor crit over instant corruption.
I'm using an MSD and because of that putting corruption down to an instant cast helps insure I don't lose dps time due to altering my casting rotation to maximize focus procs.
Generally though, I do agree that 1/43/17 and close variants are the *best* felguard raiding spec. Even though we don't gain nearly as much from crit as a ruin 'lock would the raid still sees more ISB time which leads to more raid dps overall.
On paper however, with static variables (read taking a spreadsheet which assumes a base ISB uptime regardless of your own crit rating or talents) I'm pretty sure imp. lifetap pulled ahead of the crit talents by a fair margin. Again though this assumes static variables and doesn't take into account things such as how much ISB uptime you add by increasing your own crit, nor the possibility of being grouped with a shadow priest.
On a personal note I'm either going to respec full destruction once the MSD nerf goes live or to 1/43/17. Not sure yet though if I'll be gemming the new crit meta or an old school spell damage one but either way I'll be dropping MSD. The nerf back to six seconds of focus time plus the internal cooldown addition doesn't make it worth the gemming requirements at my current gear level.
Someone brings up that stupid build every week and thinks it's good. It may look good on paper but its pretty terrible. No ruin, no shadowburn, no pet...what's the point? Its DPS sucks and is horrible to play.
If someone specs that they are pretty dumb.
Btw I can't find a character with your name on Armory or anyone in your guild with that name, do you even play a warlock?
Someone brings up that stupid build every week and thinks it's good. It may look good on paper but its pretty terrible. No ruin, no shadowburn, no pet...what's the point? Its DPS sucks and is horrible to play.
If someone specs that they are pretty dumb.
Btw I can't find a character with your name on Armory or anyone in your guild with that name, do you even play a warlock?
As daunting as that 80+ page warlock thread is, people really *should* take the time to read the damn thing. Even if you read at a 3rd grade level, it shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to glance through the larger post by some of the more seasoned posters. Hell, even the summary posts inside that thread are a good starting place.
In short, if you're going to post something, have something worth posting.
In order to determine if you have something worth saying, you need to get yourself up to speed.
It also helps, as Rochan pointed out, to have a fucking working profile.
WOW you are a pretty angry little person. So if the build didnt work for you and you found it hard to play then it must be horrible I guess. So when you specced into that build were you dumb in doing so?
Looks good on paper can be said for pretty much all the builds, aggro issues, movement during fights, being incapacitated during an encounter are just some of the things a spreadsheet cant accurately account for.
Funny you list no pet as a complaint for this build when you are running 0/21/40, dont you sac the succy too?
WOW you are a pretty angry little person. So if the build didnt work for you and you found it hard to play then it must be horrible I guess. So when you specced into that build were you dumb in doing so?
Looks good on paper can be said for pretty much all the builds, aggro issues, movement during fights, being incapacitated during an encounter are just some of the things a spreadsheet cant accurately account for.
Funny you list no pet as a complaint for this build when you are running 0/21/40, dont you sac the succy too?
BTW I do play a warlock, do you?
He has a good reason to be angry, that spec has been brought up in the warlock thread numerous times and everytime it's been proven as a bad spec compared to the others. If you had read the thread and kept up with it you would have known this and never had asked the question in the first place.
Compared to a 41+/0/18+ build you lose 5% crit of SB and UA + pet utility / malediction / shadow embrace
Compared to a 0/21/40 build you lose ISB Uptime / 8% crit
Compared to a 7/43/11 build or any variant of you lose either 5 or 10% crit / more ISB uptime. You'll also miss out on a little bit of more spell damage / damage increase from MD/SL. (depending on the fight of course) It's also a very versatile spec.
On each of these builds, you provide more benefit to the raid via pet utility or more ISB uptime. With a 30/21/10 build you really don't provide much to the raid. Especially since the build does less damage than a destruction or affliction build.
Thank you for the calm response Arveene. I have kept up with the threads and I have also kept up with Warlocks who do run this build and have seen their WSS logs.
Again on paper I will not argue those other builds sometimes appear better but in practice they may not. I mean if I can sit there an spam bolts with a 0/21/40 build without aggro issues, without ever being interrupted sure its most likely a better build. But the encounters are too dynamic with too many variables that a spreadsheet cant account for. I certianly dont see it as the best build of all time or anything like that but I do see it as a decent good DPS build with a wider play style than full affliction or destro.
I did post a link with information and if I was at home I could post other comparisons that show this build as dps viable (not complete crap as some are making out to be). Its not like I just posted the question and had nothing to atleast back up the numbers some what. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
Compared to a 0/21/40 build you lose ISB Uptime / 8% crit
In addition to this you lose pretty much all the utility of deep affliction builds and gain really nothing in return except straight damage.
30/21/10 looks really neat on paper, all that stacking of shadow damage, but what it really boils down to is this.
No pet, no malediction, no soul link for warlock tanking, most likely only 1 point in SE if any, terrible crit, nearly as much debuff space used as a full affliction 'lock, high aggro generation, and a casting rotation that relies on dot casts thus furthering the gap between itself and the other 'petless' build 0/21/40 when it comes to ISB uptime.
Of the two petless builds 0/21/40 gives more back to the raid and all you really see in return is a build that does what affliction does but with less utility. It may do slightly more damage but is that trade off really worth it when it comes to raiding?
Keep in mind the title of this thread before responding to that question.
No one is saying 30/21/10 will put you down with the tank on DPS. The point is that (as Krathis points out) it brings zero benefits to the raid. I'm fine with classes bringing zero buffs to raids so long as they put out enough DPS to make up for it. The problem with 30/21/10 is that it's "viable" in terms of DPS. You'll probably beat some mages and hunters, but it just doesn't have the same multipliers coming out of the talents as 21/40 (the closest raid-role a lock can take to 30/21/10).
SnF ends up adding as much DPS as Shadow Mastery once a certain gear level is achieved. Then you toss in Ruin, 8% more crit (which, let alone personal DPS, helps the rest of the raid) and destruction-spell threat reduction. In the face of that, 30 in affliction brings instant, empowered corruptions, a better life tap and affliction-spell threat reduction.
In short, it doesn't bring the same raid-buffs to the table as 21/40, in most cases will do the same or less damage, and scales worse if given Shaman/SP/Moonkin buffs. If I were a raid leader I'd have to wonder...
ISB modeling is all wrong in the source you mentioned. It doesn't take into account dots on the target. ISB ups ALL Shadow damage for it's duration. Not just the next 4 bolts.
Although I might be wrong about Immolate (I had it downranked at the time, severely skewing my data on it). Either way, losing 8% crit and ruin and SnF to get imp lifetap, emp corruption and shadow mastery is obviously not the way to go.
And please, people, let's stay polite. We're trying to construct a resource. No need to get personal, it detracts from the goal.
The attitude is certainly uncalled for, let's please keep this civil.
There's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).
I think it's easy to forget that 0/21/40 and X/41/XX are very healing-intensive builds. On the other side, the standard deep affliction build misses the early demo talents which results in a non-trivial health pool hit (even running with an imp). For a young raiding guild or a still undergeared lock, the 29/21/10+1 may be a good way to provide damage without putting stress on the healers and maintaining a pretty beefy health-pool.
Yes, it's situational but might be a good fit for the right person in the right situation. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the dps difference between 30/21/10 and 41/5/11+4 for early raiding gear levels.
Just because a build isn't good for your situation doesn't mean it's a bad build.
TThere's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).
Good point, I had overlooked that.
But Affliction does not really have survivability issues, due to high mobility, Dark Pact, Siphon Life, Blood Pact and if necessary Drain Life.
Neither does Destro, due to the 21 points demonology.
The self sufficiency point is valid. No doubt about that. Especially for starting guilds, having to heal warlocks that have been tapping might put a strain on undergeared healers.
However, the build is undeniable much worse in terms of dps versus 0/21/40. Losing 8%crit AND Ruin AND SnF(vsSM) for increased personal self-sufficiency is harsh. Especially if survivability is an issue, because you don't have an imp out. Blood Pact will boost hp pools of classes that actually do have issues with staying alive at low gear levels (Mooncloth Set being the prime example).
Not to mention beginning groups actually need high dps from dps classes more than anything. Just compensate with healthstones, healing/mana/rejuv pots, and if push comes to shove, bandage/drain life. Or ditch the 30/21/10 guy and replace him with a healer. As long as you don't tap too aggressively you'll get hots or other mana efficient heals anyway, by a raid healer. If you're concerned about self-sustainability, FSW or Soul Leech will help mitigate the problem.
The builds in the Compendium aren't set in stone, the compendium itself mentions that. By design, it mentions standard builds and explains their strengths and weaknesses, giving reasonable alternatives. This spec has too limited use to warrant its inclusion, in my opinion.
Last edited by Arelenda : 10/19/07 at 4:19 PM.
Reason: Clearing up possible misunderstanding
I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
Imp SB can only increase total shadow dps by 20%, ever*. The only exponential behaviour would be a psuedo exponential decay of the relative increase in ISB uptime relative to increasing crit rates.
WPUATOUOE(Wow players united against the over use of exponential)
*Feeding extra mana to spriests isn't going to create an exponential gain its just going to mean less mana consumables needed to achieve full burn and the full burn situation is still the upper bound for caster dps.
Does anyone have a link to anything conclusive that proves that CoD is not affected by SM? If it is indeed not, shouldn't this be a bug that Blizzard should fix? It seems kind of silly, and the first time I have seen this noted was on this site, although I did notice that doom seems to hit harder in my 0/21/40 build unamped.
Shouldn't be hard to find out. max rank CoD hits for 4200 + 200% * spellpower. It should take exactly one minute for a SM warlock to find out whether it's affected.
I realize there's a trinket simulation based on spec, but I'm curious to hear feedback from players who have the Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows. In a couple of weeks, I should have it. Which will give me access the following trinkets to rotate in/out.
Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows
Void Star Talisman
Darkmoon Card: Crusade
Icon of the Silver Crescent
Assuming I can keep 10x Crusade up, it always gets a trinket spot. Depending on the resists involved, I may or may not use VST as my second trinket with a Felguard out. The question is, for a single target burn encounter, would ATS be better than the Icon? I'm not concerned with anything 2+ targets. I know the ATS is better in that situation, assuming it has no internal cooldown. But everything I've ready has the both of them very close for single target encounters.
Does anyone have a link to anything conclusive that proves that CoD is not affected by SM? If it is indeed not, shouldn't this be a bug that Blizzard should fix? It seems kind of silly, and the first time I have seen this noted was on this site, although I did notice that doom seems to hit harder in my 0/21/40 build unamped.
It is very easy to test. Just remove all your items, to have 0 +dmg, and CoD+fear a mob. If it does 4200 dmg, it is not affected by SM, if it does 4620, then it is. I tested this somewhere around the 2007/05/26, to correct my spreadsheet and SM does not affect CoD.
There's no mention of Siphon Life in the Affliction section. Its damage per cast time is pretty high; is there any reason not to cast this?
(I realise it takes a load off your healers, I just mean in pure dps terms).
That would depend. Its base damage is 630 + spellpower over 30 seconds. Casting time is 1.5seconds. It's affected by SM. So it's damage-per-second-cast-time is (630+sp)*1,1 / 1,5s.
It's probably worth keeping in the rotation for the life drain, but it doesn't seem exceptionally good damage, on first glance. Far below other dots for dpsct, but better than Shadow Bolt.
30 second duration is long, though. Losing tics will make it worth less, so only worth it if your target is going to live for 30 seconds.
You can test for yourself using Leulier's spreadsheet for theorethical values, or ShadowSeer for some recorded data.
But Affliction does not really have survivability issues, due to high mobility, Dark Pact, Siphon Life, Blood Pact and if necessary Drain Life.
Neither does Destro, due to the 21 points demonology.
Affliction has good survivability but comes with a smaller health pool.. this can be bad in fights with large damage spikes. The classic example for a starting raider that I'm thinking of is a bad shatter on Gruul.
Destro can survive large damage spikes but has crap for personal healing and self-sufficiency.
The self sufficiency point is valid. No doubt about that. Especially for starting guilds, having to heal warlocks that didn't even take damage might put a strain on undergeared healers.
Is this sarcasm or a typo?
Not to mention beginning groups actually need high dps from dps classes more than anything. Just compensate with healthstones, healing/mana/rejuv pots, and if push comes to shove, bandage/drain life.
I agree with most of this.. but if you're 0/21/40 and you have to DL/bandage to get your mana your dps will suck compared to any build with siphon life for that extra bit of self-sufficiency.
If you're concerned about self-sustainability, FSW or Soul Leech will help mitigate the problem.
FSW is such a minor offset, I admit that it's something but it's a far cry from self-sufficiency. Soul leech has two problems.. 1, there's no way that it covers the health needed to self-sufficiently output the high dps of 0/21/40.. 2, you can only get health back from soul leech while standing still and casting (if there's any movement in a fight, you won't get any healing during that movement).
However, the build is undeniable much worse in terms of dps versus 0/21/40. Losing 8%crit AND Ruin AND SnF(vsSM) for increased personal self-sufficiency is harsh
So I decided to put the build to the test using leulier's spreadsheet. I picked some reasonable figures for low gear levels.. 900 shadow damage, 10% crit, 16% spell hit before talents.
946 dps with 0/21/40, -5000 hp/min
953 dps with 43/0/18, +2200 hp/min
969 dps with 30/21/10, -700 hp/min
For reference, at these dps figures the value of FSW healing is about 1000 hp/min.
30/21/10 doesn't come out all that bad.. top damage, almost self-sufficient (it is SS with FSW), and a big health pool. I would personally take deep affliction with a few sacrificed points for the extra utility, but I really can't say that 30/21/10 is a useless build in this context.
If someone actually plays and enjoys 30/21/10 I congratulate them for being able to play a spec with absolutely no fun or helpful aspects. No UA, Malediction, Shadow Embrace, Dark Pact, Ruin, extra crit, Shadowburn, SnF, pet, gimped SB range. It's basically like playing a mage :P Not to mention if you have a lot of warlocks/spriests you won't even cast siphon life due to debuff limits.
10/18/07, 12:13 PM
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