Sorry duplicated post, please remove.i'll try to add some positive feedback to the current discussion. Sorry again.
Last edited by Silentuviel : 10/19/07 at 2:04 PM.
"I love that sometimes we need to go to the opposite side of the world to realize assumptions that we didn't even know we had and realize that the opposite may also be true." - Derek Sivers
There's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).
Yes, it's situational but might be a good fit for the right person in the right situation. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the dps difference between 30/21/10 and 41/5/11+4 for early raiding gear levels.
Just because a build isn't good for your situation doesn't mean it's a bad build.
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.
41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.
As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.
30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)
And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.
30/21/10 - 1180 dps (+8.07 hp/s)
41/5/15 - 1155 dps (+51.48 hp/s)
21/0/40 - 1248 dps (+16.78 hp/s) (Note that the math here has been double checked and proven to be wrong, best I could reproduce for this spec was about 1180 dps with a similar hp/s)
0/21/40 - 1215 dps (-103.14 hp/s)
Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.
Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.
*edit* Something I forgot to mention in these number comparisons is that every spec was put on curse of elements. Given that running a damage curse over a debuff curse would be an option the spec that would gain the most would be 30/21/10, followed by 0/21/40, 41/5/15, and 21/0/40. All sac builds used a succubus sacrifice, all casting rotations where for optimal damage allowance according to the spreadsheet except life tap which was simply left 'as needed', the filler spell was shadow bolt for every spec, and no pet damage was used in any comparison.
It's probably worth mentioning that if you raid with four warlocks 30/21/10 could produce some pretty good numbers. For one you'd have three other warlocks helping to maintaining ISB, you'd have three other warlocks to take care of curse of elements, shadows, and recklessness leaving you open to using doom or agony, and most likely you'd have at least one affliction warlock maintaining SE and/or Malediction. Debuff space however could be an issue especially if more then one of the other 'locks was affliction and more then one shadow priest was in the raid.
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.
41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.
As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.
30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)
And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.
Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.
Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.
These are all good comparisons as are the ones done by IDK. All of which shows the point I was trying to make earlier, which is 30/21/10 is not complete crap as some try to make it out to be and SHOULD be included in as a hybrid build especially if you already have other locks filling the support roles.
I'll state this again, non of the spreadsheets account for the intangibles of each encounter. Movement, incapacitation/silencing effects, having to pick up CoR/CoS/CoEl if that lock dies and everything else thats not tank and spank without aggro issues. Its just like the old SM/Ruin build pre BC, not the best at one particular thing but just a good all around versatile build.
Instead of getting personal opinions about who likes and dislikes the 30/21/10 playstyle, why don't we put an entry in the first post with a brief explanation about it.. the pros, the cons.. the few cases where it shines and the reasons why you should probably pick another spec. Now that we've had an intelligent discussion about it and looked at it from both sides we should have enough info to fill out a front page entry.
If you do that you won't have people asking once a week about it.
Instead of getting personal opinions about who likes and dislikes the 30/21/10 playstyle, why don't we put an entry in the first post with a brief explanation about it..
An entry in the first post concerning 21/0/40 may be warranted too. While it doesn't scale quite so well with crit rating as 0/21/40 and uses more debuff space it showed to be a pretty solid build both in dps and self-sufficiency at later gear levels according to the spreadsheet. It also offers a more versatile play style because of it's combination of dot damage and high damage shadow bolts while maintaining blood pact for your group.
Something I forgot to mention in my comparison above was that all the builds where assumed to be using a debuff curse as opposed to a damage curse. I'm going to edit it to include that information and point out which specs gain the most from being on a damage curse.
An entry in the first post concerning 21/0/40 may be warranted too. While it doesn't scale quite so well with crit rating as 0/21/40 and uses more debuff space it showed to be a pretty solid build both in dps and self-sufficiency at later gear levels according to the spreadsheet. It also offers a more versatile play style because of it's combination of dot damage and high damage shadow bolts while maintaining blood pact for your group.
You're right.
Adding.
Oh, by the way, the remark about healing warlocks that didn't take damage was not intended to be sarcastic. I was trying to make the distinction between "paying life" (life tap/hellfire/soulshatter) and "taking damage" (everything else). I'll update the original post.
I agree with most of this.. but if you're 0/21/40 and you have to DL/bandage to get your mana your dps will suck compared to any build with siphon life for that extra bit of self-sufficiency.
FSW is such a minor offset, I admit that it's something but it's a far cry from self-sufficiency. Soul leech has two problems.. 1, there's no way that it covers the health needed to self-sufficiently output the high dps of 0/21/40.. 2, you can only get health back from soul leech while standing still and casting (if there's any movement in a fight, you won't get any healing during that movement).
...
For reference, at these dps figures the value of FSW healing is about 1000 hp/min.
30/21/10 doesn't come out all that bad.. top damage, almost self-sufficient (it is SS with FSW), and a big health pool. I would personally take deep affliction with a few sacrificed points for the extra utility, but I really can't say that 30/21/10 is a useless build in this context.
About self sufficience: FSW used to heal me for about half of what Soul Leech brought. I'm not using it any more, though.
My point is that Destro can be self sustainable through consumables, FSW (which every starting warlock can use, regardless of spec) and Soul Leech. If it wants to. There's no need in most fights. Almost every fight has a pocket where you're stable and you can easily get some hots thrown to you. I typically try to be at 80-90% health at all times so I can benefit from Soul Leech procs. When I get a hot thrown, I'll tap to make it last the full duration.
Soul Leech heals me for about 25k. (1200 per minute)
I used 41 lifetaps during the Kael'thas fight for a total of 67k health.
For comparison, hypothetical gains from FSW - 2% * 580k * 1.26 is roughly 14k.
For comparison, hypothetical gains from spamming rejuv pots: 9x4600 is roughly 42k
So if I spam potions, I can do the entire fight being self sufficient. That's not counting healthstones. And this is for a 18 minute fight, with no shaman or spriest.
Soul Leech will obviously not work for damage spikes while moving. In fact, it won't work against damage spikes at all. But Siphon Life or Imp Life Tap won't help much there either. Spike damage requires healing (or pots, or stones). I was arguing about self sufficiency over a large period of time. Fights where large damage spikes are an issue will favor Affliction anyway, since they have Blood Pact.
FSW at my gear level is 14k over 18 minutes. I'd say 400-600 per minute might be a more realistic average for starting raid comms.
My point is that Destro can be self sustainable through consumables, FSW (which every starting warlock can use, regardless of spec) and Soul Leech. If it wants to. There's no need in most fights. Almost every fight has a pocket where you're stable and you can easily get some hots thrown to you. I typically try to be at 80-90% health at all times so I can benefit from Soul Leech procs. When I get a hot thrown, I'll tap to make it last the full duration.
Bringing consumables into the equation helps 30/21/10 more than it helps 0/21/40 _in this situation_. Consumables are used for the destro spec to maintain self-sufficiency when heals are limited.. a self-sufficient spec like 30/21/10 or 41/X/X can use those potion cooldowns to increase dps instead (whether it's mana pots or destruction pots).
Fights where large damage spikes are an issue will favor Affliction anyway, since they have Blood Pact.
Maybe this is true for your party, it's not true for an individual warlock. Blood pact is worth 660 hp untalented. You only need 4401 hp from stamina before demonic embrace provides more hp than blood pact. At even starting raid gear levels, DE is going to be much more improvement for your health pool than blood pact.
Maybe this is true for your party, it's not true for an individual warlock. Blood pact is worth 660 hp untalented. You only need 4401 hp from stamina before demonic embrace provides more hp than blood pact. At even starting raid gear levels, DE is going to be much more improvement for your health pool than blood pact.
In spite of this, I'd still rather be taking spike damage as affliction (with or without DE) over 0/21/40. Not just because you have an imp out but because dark pact and siphon life means you'll be at full life more often and affliction builds (rather full or some sort of hybrid) will recover from that damage much faster in any situation where a healer won't or can't top you off.
This of course assumes just random spike damage as opposed to constant spike damage such as warlock tanking. In which case I'd take 0/21/40 over any affliction build that didn't include at least DE.
In spite of this, I'd still rather be taking spike damage as affliction (with or without DE) over 0/21/40. Not just because you have an imp out but because dark pact and siphon life means you'll be at full life more often and affliction builds (rather full or some sort of hybrid) will recover from that damage much faster in any situation where a healer won't or can't top you off.
This of course assumes just random spike damage as opposed to constant spike damage such as warlock tanking. In which case I'd take 0/21/40 over any affliction build that didn't include at least DE.
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.
41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.
As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.
30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)
And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.
Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.
Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.
*edit* Something I forgot to mention in these number comparisons is that every spec was put on curse of elements. Given that running a damage curse over a debuff curse would be an option the spec that would gain the most would be 30/21/10, followed by 0/21/40, 41/5/15, and 21/0/40. All sac builds used a succubus sacrifice, all casting rotations where for optimal damage allowance according to the spreadsheet except life tap which was simply left 'as needed', the filler spell was shadow bolt for every spec, and no pet damage was used in any comparison.
It's probably worth mentioning that if you raid with four warlocks 30/21/10 could produce some pretty good numbers. For one you'd have three other warlocks helping to maintaining ISB, you'd have three other warlocks to take care of curse of elements, shadows, and recklessness leaving you open to using doom or agony, and most likely you'd have at least one affliction warlock maintaining SE and/or Malediction. Debuff space however could be an issue especially if more then one of the other 'locks was affliction and more then one shadow priest was in the raid.
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?
As far as the 30/21/10 discussion goes, its undeniably decent enough DPS. It simply brings close to 0 utility that isn't trumped by other builds to the raid so its not seen much. Kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none.
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?
You're forgetting imp lifetap. It's not _just_ empowered corruption. Imp Lifetap means 16% less time spent lifetapping.
Not that it makes your point less valid.
There is no way it can keep up with a bolting spec, with Shadowbolts that hit for less and crit 8% less. It loses in straight dps vs destro, it doesn't get any of the support things the other specs do (Malediction, -5% damage, blood pact for affliction, high ISB uptime for destro). The _only_ upside is that you require less healing.
I had imp lifetap and nightfall accounted for too, i should have mentioned that. It just blew me away that he showed 21/0/40 ahead at all, so i checked.
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?
Hmm... I double checked everything today and came up with way different numbers on both these specs.
Got 1194 at +4.89 hp/s for 21/0/40 and 1245 at -93 hp/s for 0/21/40. I'm questioning rather or not open office reads the spreadsheet correctly but did manage to reproduce at least the dps on both these specs by opening and closing the program and reentering the data (though the hp/s came out way different on the 21/0/40 build the second time around).
Not saying human error couldn't have accounted for the original mistake but I've seen some odd behavior from the spreadsheet with open office so it does have me wondering.
There is no way it can keep up with a bolting spec, with Shadowbolts that hit for less and crit 8% less. It loses in straight dps vs destro, it doesn't get any of the support things the other specs do (Malediction, -5% damage, blood pact for affliction, high ISB uptime for destro). The _only_ upside is that you require less healing.
Are you referring to 21/0/40 here or 30/21/10? Because 21/0/40 (which I'm goofing around with right now for the weekend to see how well it works) has the same crit rating as 0/21/40 as well as blood pact.
The other advantage I see to using a 21/0/40 build is the damage you gain in movement heavy fights from using corruption and sl.
All that said I'll probably use the old standby if I ever make the permanent switch from demonology.
Are you referring to 21/0/40 here or 30/21/10? Because 21/0/40 (which I'm goofing around with right now for the weekend to see how well it works) has the same crit rating as 0/21/40 as well as blood pact.
The other advantage I see to using a 21/0/40 build is the damage you gain in movement heavy fights from using corruption and sl.
All that said I'll probably use the old standby if I ever make the permanent switch from demonology.
I was refering to 30/21/10. Due to the reasons I mentioned I won't trust any calculations that make it appear competitive.
21/0/40 is definitely a viable alternative. You take a hit in personal damage, and in hit points, but you're more mana/health efficient and provide blood pact.
21/0/40 is certainly a decent build if you have to have an imp out and still get a good use out of Crit gear.
Assuming you didn't have an UA lock (why else would you need an imp out), you lose is malediction and 1-5% less physical damage, which does make a big difference, likely moreso than the extra damage, if any, from 21/0/40.
21/0/40 is certainly a decent build if you have to have an imp out and still get a good use out of Crit gear.
Assuming you didn't have an UA lock (why else would you need an imp out), you lose is malediction and 1-5% less physical damage, which does make a big difference, likely moreso than the extra damage, if any, from 21/0/40.
This is exactly why I don't understand why there's any discussion of actually raiding with 21/0/40: prima facie, it just doesn't min/max at all. Because the spec has none of the affliction utility (Malediction or Shadow Embrace), it is a personal DPS spec. But, it is less personal DPS, requires more debuff slots, and does not increase ISB uptime when compared to 0/21/40, 1/41/19, or 0/40/21. The only time the DPS from 21/0/40 would be comparable to the other three personal DPS specs is on encounters where the other specs are forced to use an Imp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only encounter where Demon/Destro warlocks are generally "forced" to use an Imp is Najentus. Granted, the argument that in movement based fights you'll gain DPS from Instant Corruption, Imp LT, and Siphon Life bears some consideration. But, in practice, what movement based fights actually allow Instant Corruption, Imp LT, and Siphon Life to overcome the 15% damage bonus to shadow bolt from 0/21/40 or the pet DPS, 2% more crit, and higher spell damage from a Demonology DPS spec? Keep in mind that it's been consistently demonstrated on these forums through both parses and theory that destro/demon DPS specs can obviate the mobility advantage of instant DOTs by saving Life Taps for times of movement. Still, if anyone has parses that demonstrate well played (meaning high cast-time used and high DOT uptime) 21/0/40 versus a similarly well played "conventional" warlock DPS spec, I'd be more than happy to re-evaluate the actual value of "increased mobility."
Unless you're regularly using an Imp for the MT because you're the only warlock in the raid, it just doesn't make sense for a warlock DPS spec to use an Imp. And, if that is the case, then you'd be far more useful to your raid respeccing to an affliction utility build (something similar to this). Granted, it's conceivable that Malediction is wasted on CoR in a particularly melee heavy raid. In that instance, however, 21/0/40 is still only comparable to the other DPS specs if you're routinely using an Imp for the MT; but, if so, you're still better off with a UA spec because Shadow Embrace further enhances the MT's survival.
The conclusion? With the exception of performing a purely DPS role on the Najentus encounter, 21/0/40 is suboptimal when compared to other warlock DPS specs. Thus, like 30/21/10, it's a spec that demonstrates a warlocks lack of deeper understanding of how the class talents and game scaling work.
Edit: A typo was missed during the initial proof-reading, sorry.
The conclusion? With the exception of performing a purely DPS role on the Najentus encounter, 21/0/40 is suboptimal when compared to other warlock DPS specs. Thus, like 30/21/10, it's a spec that demonstrates a warlocks lack of deeper understanding of how the class talents and game scaling work.
Edit: A typo was missed during the initial proof-reading, sorry.
The ISB uptime difference between 21/0/40 and 0/21/40 isn't that large assuming you're not the only warlock in the raid creating uptime. If you are the gap is pretty huge but that's generally not the case. Remember uptime isn't just the number of shadow bolts cast but also the crit rating in relation to the number of shadow bolts cast. 21/0/40 will cast fewer bolts but the crit rating should be very similar to 0/21/40.
The real benefit I see of 21/0/40 over 0/21/40 is less reliance on hots to sustain dps. If you're raid set up is such that you regularly get topped off or dropped a hot after tapping then 0/21/40 is the superior spec in 90% of fights. 0/21/40 gains more benefit from moonkin and elemental shaman buffs though then 21/0/40 for obvious reasons.
I wouldn't say someone speccing 21/0/40 lacks a deeper understanding of the class or game scaling. The spec does have it's place and it's uses depending on raid make up much like 30/21/10 being a decent spec for a four 'lock raid that only uses one shadow priest. I think 21/0/40 is much less of a niche build then 30/21/10 though.
Personally I plan to stick with demo for a good long time. Just playing devil's advocate here.
I wouldn't say someone speccing 21/0/40 lacks a deeper understanding of the class or game scaling. The spec does have it's place and it's uses depending on raid make up much like 30/21/10 being a decent spec for a four 'lock raid that only uses one shadow priest. I think 21/0/40 is much less of a niche build then 30/21/10 though.
Personally I plan to stick with demo for a good long time. Just playing devil's advocate here.
I think your arguments for 21/0/40 are pretty valid. There are a number of worthwhile builds with x/x/40. None of them is likely to outdps 0/21/40, but it'll be close enough for gear/skill/latency to be the more significant factor, and there's some nice utility involved.
But 30/21/10 is just horrible, especially with multiple locks in the raid. The spec relies on throwing Shadow Bolts in between Corruption/Siphon, about as much as the destruction warlock.
Except those bolts do less damage, and are at 8% less crit. Occasionally Nightfall procs, making you eat even more charges. The affliction warlock /spriests will not be too happy about the debuffs you're slapping on there, and the destro warlock won't be too happy to see his ISBs being eaten by weak Shadow Bolts. And all this so you have to be healed less than the destro warlock.
It'll do damage. No one is saying it won't. But its total lack of synergy with other shadow people, and undeniably lower individual dps, in addition to the mediocre utility gained from Siphon Life, make it a clearly inferior choice over any of the other available builds listed in the Compendium.
The only way I see 30/21/10 being viable is if you have three other 'locks to run CoR, CoS, and CoE for you as well as keep ISB up. On top of that you'd need a raid that was somehow light on debuff space. So if two of those other three 'locks where affliction and you had one shadow priest it wouldn't work. The reason for this is the only way a 30/21/10 warlock can pull a substantial lead over other specs is through amplified dooms. The spec does it better then any other spec. I don't think this alone would be enough to give the spec a dps lead over a 0/21/40 spec assuming both 'locks where dropping doom rather then a utility curse.
Really though I agree with whoever said you may as well just find another shadow priest instead. For the debuff space used a second shadow priest would return way more utility then a fourth warlock, especially if that fourth warlock is running this spec.
This is a wonderful resource and the great debate means it's still being expanded and refined. I specced my Warlock as deep Affliction (44/0/17) originally as back then I don't think it was obvious that Destruction would overtake it so soon for pure Raid DPS.
But I'm still chuckling at Arelenda's downranked Immolate as it lays to rest a wee debate we had on our guild forum long before he started this thread
Sorry I've nothing constructive to add other than as a Warlock Alt Player I say "Keep up the great work".
But 30/21/10 is just horrible, especially with multiple locks in the raid. The spec relies on throwing Shadow Bolts in between Corruption/Siphon, about as much as the destruction warlock.
Except those bolts do less damage, and are at 8% less crit. Occasionally Nightfall procs, making you eat even more charges. The affliction warlock /spriests will not be too happy about the debuffs you're slapping on there, and the destro warlock won't be too happy to see his ISBs being eaten by weak Shadow Bolts. And all this so you have to be healed less than the destro warlock.
The point of ISB is not to increase that one single 0/21/40 Warlocks DPS, it helps the overall raid DPS. There is no guarantee that the 30/21/10 warlock will "eat" it. Also I think you underestimate the the bolts this build puts out, albiet not as high crits they are much better than an Affliction lock. Remember 30% of your DPS for non bolt spammer builds still comes from Bolts.
I think the point some of you are still missing is that with this spec you trade raid utility for versatility. This can certainly be a bad thing if every lock specced this way just like it would be a bad thing if every lock was FG Raid spec. However if you have other locks filling the utility role then having one of these locks or an FG raid spec lock doesnt hurt and they have potential to put out numbers.
EDIT::
This was from our Hydross kill the other night. Not my best night as I had UI and Lag issues. Also no Doom was used and I think I was on CoR duty on this one (cant remember, sleeped since then)
I tried it early on (learning VR and Lurker) and while it was competitive in the DPS aspect, the lack of threat reduction is what made me respec. I was doing above average DPS for the raid, but I was gaining threat to a degree where I couldn't continue DPS until my shatter cooldown finished.
As to CoR:
You are missing a major aspect to CoR. Not only do you have to figure in melee DPS compared to Doom, you also need to add in the DPS increase of all classes due to the higher threat generation of the tank. If I recall correctly, Pre-BC CoR increased raid DPS by 3%.
10/19/07, 12:58 PM
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