weebey

I tried searching this thread for my answer, but wasn't able to find anything solid on how many fire/frost users it takes to make curse of the elements worthwhile. Our raids aren't always overflowing with mages, so I'm not sure how many it takes to make up for the loss of DPS by not using CoD. Only one of our locks has 3/3 Malediction and he will almost always be better served using it on Curse of Shadows.

I've been tossing up CoS whenever there are two more shadow users, which is every raid.

My apologies if this has been gone over already.

 

Arelenda

Coe last 5mins, increases frost/fire by 10%.

If you cast CoD instead, you have to refresh it 5 times. Costs about 3 shadow bolts worth of casts due to GCD.

So it's worth it if : fire/frost damage over 5 mins / 10 + 3 * SB damage > 5 * CoD

Or roughly 1100 dps worth of frost/fire is required if I plug my stats in.

 

Krazen

General rule of thumb:

1 frost mage = CoE
1 fire mage = CoD, swap to CoE at or about the 20% mark.
2 mages = CoE

 

Ammanas

They posted pretty good rules about CoE, but keep in mind CoR should take priority over CoE and CoD since every raid will have at least 7-8 melee including the tanks/hunters. Its safe to use on almost every fight if you keep Demo Shout up.

 

Chersuine

A lot of the posts touched on this, but there was not a lot of discussion on the topic.

Does it make sense to keep one lock affliction to maintain the Imp buff in the Tank group? We have 3 locks that raid regularly and our last affliction lock respecced to Destruction. If any of the current locks respec back to affliction they are going to see a reduction in DPS. Needless to say none of us want to do it -- we currently take turns playing with our imp rather than a sacrificed pet.

Is there a discussion on the benefits of keeping an Imp available even with the loss of DPS? Or is this simply a raid preference, dependent on the raid leaders?

 

Chaley

It depends on your progression and your tank's gear. My guild just downed Illidan this past week, and we haven't had an imp in the tank group since Azgalor/Teron. We found that more DPS is more important, and your main tank should be given every single upgrade that drops no matter how minor. If your tank doesn't have the minimum health requirement for a boss I think it's pretty safe to say that your DPS/Healers don't have the gear for it either.

Still having an affliction warlock has its uses. I am our Malediction/Ruin specced warlock, and I put out respectable dps (#1 on the charts for our first Illidan kill) along with providing an Imp for Najentus/Council where having more HP on certain classes (Priests in particular) helps a lot. It also makes you easier to stay alive with dark pact instead of life tap. Gear choices have to be made in certain ways for an affliction warlock to pull some good numbers, but if you are in BT/Hyjal you have access to all the best affliction pieces.

One thing you shouldn't be worried about is personal DPS, nor should you worry about boosting your tank's health. One of your warlocks should be affliction just for the 5/5 SE and 3/3 Malediction debuffs as they can be pretty huge for certain raid groups or certain encounters. If personal DPS is a huge issue that can't be gotten around, figure out how much the extra 3% from Malediction would give the raid and add it to that warlock's damage. You'll see that if you look at it that way that warlock really doesn't lose damage.

 

Chaley

I shouldn't drink while posting =).

 

Trickykid

I don't know about you, but I'm never not-casting for more than 5 seconds. Shouldn't affect locks too much since the time is better spent LTing.

 

Krazen

If you've killed Illidan, my opinion is you don't need the affliction lock until Sunwell.

 

• frmorrison

This, no point in gimping your dps if you already beat the game, at least until the next patch.


2 instances every Lock is out of the 5SR, during the freeze when Illidan is 30%, and in between trash pulls. Still ignorable, but it isn't bad to have spirit.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

galzohar

If you're still having trouble with any fight (which is mostly what we all gear/spec for, no? If everything is on farm things start to not matter as much although you could go for max dps but still the important discussion is what to do for progression), you should have affliction warlock in your raids. Especially if you think imp in the tank group is important enough to make a destruction warlock do it, you'd actually gain dps if that destruction warlock goes affliction since destruction with 15% less damage sucks. Not to mention when you're progressing you probably don't lose a lot of DPS for going affliction. It takes quite a bit of gear for destruction to outdps affliction+malediction, and a lot more gear than that for the dps increase of destruction to be worth the loss of shadow embrace and imp in the tank group (and again destruction with imp will probably do less dps than affliction at most/all gear levels).

To sum it up unless you have insane gear and everything in the game on farm, you should be affliction if your raid doesn't have one already. This goes all the way from SSC to killing illidan and will probably be applicable for sunwell as well. Just like you prioritize loot to the MT, you also prioritize people speccing into a spec that will contribute less dps to the raid but give a huge buff to the tank's survivability and lower tank dead tank and oom healer wipes.


Remember that the causes for wipes, from most common to least common (with a rather big difference between them), is:

-People handle special fight mechanics wrong and get themselves or others killed.

-Tank died to a random burst, either combined with healers not being able to heal at that very moment or not. While only a few bosses hit hard enough to have a small chance to deal an unhealable burst, lots of bosses do enough damage to have a chance to burst your tank enough to kill him if your healers also had other issues with the fight (be it handling mechanics wrong but not in a "instant wipe" way, too much raid healing and not healing the tank, or anything else that has to do with learning the fight). This is the most common wipe reason that can be patched with gear.

-Healers went oom. Usually when you're lacking shadow priests and/or raid is simply taking excessive damage from fight mechanics they're not used to - not enough to actually die and wipe but enough to run healers dry. This is rather rare though as people that take more damage than intended usually die.

-Not enough DPS. This is by far the rarest of all, as if everyone is alive they need to have pretty terrible skills and gear in order to not have enough dps to kill the boss before enrage. Usually people that are bad enough to not do enough DPS are also so bad they'll die to fight mechanics way before their lack of dps shows as a problem - it's that easy to have enough dps (or at least that much easier than the "staying alive" part).

Since having an affliction warlock helps with the most common reason for wiping by a lot while making the least common reason for wiping a little more possible (if at all, you do need pretty good gear for destruction to out-do affliction+malediction even counting destruction ISB raid dps increase), it's always a good idea to have one in your raid, unless you're just farming everything in the game, have so much gear that affliction will be a more noticeable raid DPS loss and just want to get faster timed clears.

 

Nerull

I think the effect of imp is getting more and more marginal.
When your 3/3 improved imp gave the tank 1k HP if you include kings which was at karazhan levels close to 10%, now with BT gear the imp has scaled down to only a 4,5% hp increase considering a non tauren MT of 21-22k HP buffed.

Aside that, my personal experience with wipes is at least my current guild that the MT pretty much dies last, pretty much never the MT dies for whatever reason , its usually another keyplayer who dies that is causing things to go downhill rapidly.

That all said, the only reason, which is still _very_ much valid and pretty much mandatory to have 1 affliction lock in sunwell is shadow embrace. The debuff is serious stuff.

If everything is on farm, as said earlier however, it doesnt matter what you spec , just play what you like most ? Im sure that if you are a reliable nice person the raid leaders wont mind you do 300 dps less than the destro locks when everything is on farm. Again that said when everything is on farm you spend most of your time in an instance on trash by far and that is where affliction can really shine. Despite being affliction I have been top 3 damage in almost all raids and thats mostly due to the fact that I pretty much raped everyone on trash.

 

Nerull

I also have a question about destro locks. After always been afflcition in raiding, I recently went destro as there was no more need of an affliction lock since everything is on farm.

The biggest things to optimize dps as destro is to make sure your shadowbolts are cast with the least delay possible , other than that you pretty much cant go wrong with the mechanics I figured.

To optimze the time casting shadowbolts I figured you can either get used to your rythm, or just spam the button after it has passed the 2 second line of the cast bar. I guess some will prefer the rythm thing, I guess thats most enjoyable to play, but if Im thinking in terms of maxing ( Im going destro now to max, Im still in love with affliction for the more complex gameplay ) , then the spam becomes more viable (?). Now instead of spam pressing my keyboard like a semi retard for 3-4 hours long, I decided to make a macro in my G15 keyaboard that passible spams the shadowbolt and trinket buttons like a maniac ( on a 0,02 second interval ) .

I now have fun watching the environment and enjoying the big number show instead of pressing it like a maniac.

My questions now are :

- Does anyone know if this considered legit or exploit ?
- If its considered exploit , is it detectable by blizzard ?
- Do you feel it takes the fun away from the spec that to be most effective you have to resort to this ?

 

Bahkauv

The G15's Macros are not illegal. If you use a macro that allows you to be afk for a certain time, it is illegal if you do so.

As long as you sit in front of your computer, it is not illegal. It is of course detectable, a guy pressing a button every 0,02sec and not answering to a GM and still pressing that button after the target is death/oor/whatever is quite suspicious ;-)

Regarding the fun thing: Destro spec is the least fun spec to play, at least in my opinion. No dots to refresh, no Felguard to save, just a button to press over and over again. Automating that task can´t reduce the fun, because there is no fun.

 

Fafhrd

Destro isn't just pressing one button, if you're doing that, you're doing something wrong.

1. Spam shadow bolt, curses.
2. Keep track of aggro, plan for shatter, be ready for an emergency shatter
3. Plan your Life Taps
4. Plan your mana pots/destruction pots
5. Sync Bloodlust with trinkets
6. Sync your drum usage with the others in the group
7. Keep track of the particulars of the encounter

 

Bahkauv

2-5 and 7 is the stuff that every Warlock has to do during any encounter, and as you learn it, it becomes some kind of automatism. There is at least no difference between the different specs.

6 is something for Leatherworkers, which I am not.

1 is the point I was talking about. Of course I vastly exaggerated when I reduced it to shadow bolt spamming and not mentioning keeping a curse up ;-)

 

Nerull

Im not sure if you are cynical about your analasys fafhrd or not, a serious reply here there though. It wasnt ment in a way like : Press macro and go watch tv while doing archimonde. Having build in the nobrainers as default , the only thing that remains as a big point for optimizing is the timing of SB bolting, which human reaction cant hope to optimze as much as a macro spam.

Most points are no brainers, only point I see for serious improvement is timing the trinket(s) on bloodlusts ( As said I was afflcition until a few days ago and not used to getting bloodlusts in MT group ).

Mana pot usage is something that although it slightly increases dps ( about 30-40 according to leulier ) , in encounters where the raid takes damage I prefer to keep it for the healing pot ( Bloodboil fel rage, RoS P3, Mother FA, Council the lovely envenom - flamestrike , Illidan P2 darkbarrage and healers not adapting appropriatly ). I do understand it gives more dps due to not having GCD and saving you from a lifetap. Can I shout at healers/other players to pay attention to my healthbar more ? Yeah I could, or I can just prevent dieing altogether , HP Pot + stone + deathcoil and if you arent healed up by then, then it is time for a chat yeah

When I dont have to pay attention to the castingbar at all, I feel I actually have more time to properly watch the encounter , environment and omen.

 

◊ Kyth

If you have the money, use Super Rejuvs.

Officer of <Fusion>
http://www.stratfu.com/ - StratFu: Strategies, Guides, Movies, and Tips for Wrath Raiding

 

Fafhrd

It's true that every Warlock has too keep track of the things I posted, in addition to pet management, clipping dots, Dark Pact etc. And it's true it get's automatic after a while when you're have bosses on farm-status. I was just countering the statement that destruction is just SB spam.

Anyway, I'm probably influenced by doing new stuff in Sunwell, especially Brutallus, where you currently need all the dps you can squeeze out of every single player.

Nerull: With the new spell queueing mechanic I doubt you will get more dps out of your keyboard. You might save your SB finger from undue wear though.

 

dakalro

If you don't use mana pots and don't get shadow priest then you won't see the huge dps increase you're supposed to get. On the other hand you should have been using mana pots even as affli, it's not a matter of spec, mana usage is about the same. Anyway mana opts also allow you more freedom on when you're LTing so you can view them as a reverse hp pot, you just can't control when you use it. But HS + DC is oh-shit enough, it's a 4.3-6.5k boost in hp after all (<3 HS crits and lately it seems more like theyr'e critting at my own crit rate).

 

Madlax

I will cross post this here as well because many might be interested in the actual weighting:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockhastezo2.jpg

Started at
hitrating = 100;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1400;
spellhaste = 0;
Going up by 1 by 1 for each stat and calcing DPS over a 60000(to get some flattened numbers) seconds cycle.

Picture should speak for itself.
=> http://elitistjerks.com/646902-post407.html

 

Nerull

That basicly confirms what everyone has been saying regarding +hit from post one.
Its the best stat point per point and it has the additional benefit of being budgetted in cheapest of all.

Crit is slightly over +damage, but I dont think the comparison is fair considering that +crit is a lot harder to get through item budgetting.

+Haste scaling best is something Ive seen in the Leulier spreadsheet also, however , its not like : Ok, lets stack haste now and ignore the rest. At some point the value of crit is going up a lot more than haste at which time you need to invest in crit again until the situation is reversed. Ive personally taken the Zuljin neck and bracers of nimble thought recently instead of the crit alternatives.

 

Madlax

Ye, just keep in mind that in my calculation it´s a single warlock spamming SBs.
No other warlocks or shadowpriests there to leech - which would inevitably reduce the crit bonus again.

Haven´t found that point yet nor can I verify that it´s there.

Just doing another edit:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockdsyu1.jpg

Thats Demonic Sacrifice, no Improved Life Tap.
hitrating = 202;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1300;
spellhasterating = 0;
As starting values.

 

Ammanas

Yeah, its very nicely done and everything matches up with the numbers I've been getting from leulier except for crit. When I plug in my current raid-buffed stats (1630 damage 202 hit ~25 crit 2.7% haste) I still get damage as superior to crit at 1:.81 clip. Like you said though, the limitations to your calculations probably account for that. I really like the idea behind the graph, its a nice visual representation. The 2nd graph seems to be more in-line with my own personal findings via the spreadsheet.

 

galzohar

As you can see from the WWS linked a few posts back and the discussion that follows, the main thing about DPSing is actually DPSing. Granted it's important to time your spell damage cooldowns and not clip them with lifetaps (ilfetap doesn't scale nearly as much with spell damage as shadowbolt, although at least it scales just as well with haste come 2.4), and preferably lifetap when you have to move anyway. And picking the right gear is also very important. But all of those factors dwarf in comparison to the importance of knowing how to actually not lose any casts and just stand there and dps as much as possible. That is, in fact, the main thing that seperates the good from the bad.