Graall

The original post in this thread provides guidance for gear choice for each of the builds it reviews. For both demonolgy and destruction specs it recommends spell haste as being more valuable than either spell crit, or spell damage. This runs contrary to most of the advice and simulation/theorycrating I have read such as:

Warlock scaling simulation

I've also spent some time playing around with the warlock dps spreadsheets and have not seen spell haste as being more valuable in terms of dps than simply adding more +damage.

Is there a factor that I am missing that makes spell haste more valuable to these builds than is immediately obvious?

 

rochan

You are deluding yourself if you think a 30/21/10 build is an optimal raiding build. And to top it off, you link an AoE fight?

Although I have to admit, 30/21/10 probably puts out the strongest Seed of Corruption

 

Antoine

At most reasonable gear levels, haste is approximately as good as spell damage as 0/21/40 (for me, .99 haste is 1 damage). It's really personal preference.

 

Arelenda

Well, I'm basing that on ShadowSeer data. It measures total time spent casting, calculates hypothetical time gained with a bonus x to haste rating, and turns it into hypothetical shadow bolt spam (including ISB estimate and with lifetap/dark pact to compensate for the mana cost). The damage output of those extra bolts is considered as the hypothetical gain for x haste rating

It calculates the gains for +damage too, by calculation the % increase your base spells get from a bonus to spellpower. It then applies this to your totals. That's the hypothetical gain from damage.

The numbers for gaining 100 haste are consistently higher for me (0/21/40) than for 100 points in any other rating (or 100 damage).

for reference, I have 1220 spellpower buffed with Fel Armor. Around 150 hit and 290 crit rating. 100 more spelldamage boosts my dps with around 5%. 100 haste usually translates into 7-8%. Crit and Hit vary, since ISB varies a lot between bosses and trash.



Main theory is this: all stats have diminishing returns. At the moment haste gear becomes available, warlocks are already packing 1200+ spellpower. Upping haste gets you a %based increase. You need quite a bit of spellpower to get the same % since you already have tons. The highest increases are for the first points of haste. It probably reaches saturation pretty quickly. I estimate it at 150-250 but that's just an educated guess.


The problem is that this is all theory. The _real_ benefits of haste, especially given the low effective difference in casting time, are plain impossible to measure. There's no way to filter out lag.

 

Arelenda

That is a good point, though. We overlooked SoC. SoC spam fights might be tipped in favor of 30/21/10.

As for 30/21/10 and ISB... Affliction Warlocks get a nice bonus from ISB to all their dots, without consuming charges. Hence the high synergy between destro/affliction.

 

Cronjob

I'll post some TK stuff from this week, maybe Al'ar or something else in there non AOE.

Again I am not saying this is the build that saves WOW, just saying its not crap and if other locks fill the other roles then this is viable as is the FG raid spec even at the higher gear levels.


Vlar,

You are correct the Aggro is an issue on the destruction side for this build however not so for the Affliction side, atleast not anymore so than a UA lock.

 

Trickykid

The 30/21/10 lock will be doing about ~60% of his casting time on SBs with a significantly lower crit rate than 21/40. There is no guarantee he won't crit, but on the average he will be lowering the ISB uptime for the raid (even more than an affliction lock -- who at least provides malediction/SE to the raid).

The "it does ok" argument just doesn't stick for me. I could find some random talent build that "does ok" but I don't see the point in the context of raiding. I'm constantly trying to find ways to eek out another dps of my toon, so losing some firepower (let alone comparatively nerfing shadow raid damage and eating 2-3 more debuff slots) in exchange for 2 instant dots and some healing just doesn't cut the mustard.

In conclusion, the argument is going like this:
pro-30/21/10: "It's not the best, but that's ok"
anti-30/21/10: "It's not the best, and that's not ok"

So I'm signing out on this one ... :P

 

calisti

Actually, the greater blessings received by warlock pets depends upon the pet. The felguard receives warrior blessings, while all of the other pets receive warlock blessings. The only one I'm unsure about is the voidwalker, but this pet is pretty much useless in a raid setting.

It is also worth noting that phase shifted imps do not receive any group buffs. If a demonology warlock is using an imp, remember to remove phase shift before the group starts buffing. Also remember to reactivate phase shift before entering combat, or AoE abilities will insta-gib your imp. If you do forget to activate phase shift, you can always turn on autocast, dismiss the imp, and resummon it to keep its buffs and have it phase shift.

 

Arelenda

Thanks! Added.

 

Furio

Thanks for so succinctly summarizing the argument.

But an Affliction 'lock has higher crit, should increase ISB uptime, and eats less ISB charges when compared to 30/21/10.

What versatility? 30/21/10 has no utility and suffers more from using an Imp than any other spec discussed in this thread. Perhaps myself and the other "anti-30/21/10" advocates are missing something crucial, but all I (we) can see is a trade of all utility, all +crit talents, Ruin, and Shadow and Flame/Demon defensive and offensive talents/UA for Imp LT, Instant Corruption, Siphon Life and Shadow Mastery. In short, 30/21/0 ignores the defining talents in every tree to gain what appears to be little.


I'm not sure what this parse is supposed to show. You out-DPSed the other two warlocks present. 'Grats? I hope you realize you can't conclude your spec is superior just because you out-DPS the other warlocks in your raids. After all, a cursory glance through the parse demonstrates the other two warlocks are affliction (ill-suited for that particular encounter) and had significantly lower DOT uptime than you (indicating worse play). Not to mention this is an AOE fight and the single advantage your spec has over others is higher SoC damage. By the way, to give you some perspective, you should search WWS for other Hydross parses. You'll find that well played Felguard 'locks, even at your gear level, output 1400-1500+ DPS (as compared to your 1050 DPS).



I have to take offense with the notion that a player should spec (or gear) sub-optimally to cover for weaknesses in other parts of the raid - specifically healing. Maximizing your individual ability to contribute is just as much about helping and teaching your raid-mates as it is about perfecting your own play. If you have to count on Siphon Life to fuel your Life Taps, then something is very wrong. Your time would be best spent trying to understand and fix the problems preventing healers from tossing you a HOT or a direct heal occasionally. I realize some raids are healing strapped, but I can't imagine a successful raid that is so healing strapped it can't spare a few GCDs and several hundred mana to fuel a warlock.


My theme appears to be my lack of imagination for situations when 30/21/10, 21/0/40, and other such "non-maximized" specs actually shine. While supporters of such specs may be quick to point out examples, I challenge those supporters to justify why it's "ok" to be sub-optimal most of the time just to be able to occasionally, but rarely, thriving. From my calculus, the expected value of such specs is significantly lower than that of the "conventional" specs.

 

Arelenda

I'd rather you not lump them all together. Any build with 40 points in destruction can be completed with 21 points spread according to taste, and will not be outdamaged by more than 15% by 0/21/40. And it'll have an imp out. Given the relatively low impact of maximum 15% of personal dps vs some utility, I think other factors (personal skill, latency, deaths) will be much more important in determining outcome of a fight (or final dps, if that's what you care about).

No sane person is saying it consistently outdamages 0/21/40. It's easily proven not to be so.

But one could make a case for it to be close enough dpswise, and at that point we're arguing about tastes, really. Benefits of Blood Pact/Imp LT/Shadowfury or whatever else you can fit in 0/0/40 vs max15% dps are not measurable and highly subjective. I personally prefer 0/21/40, but I wouldn't call anyone speccing differently wrong by default.

I'm pretty convinced that for almost any raid community, raid dps/efficiency could be boosted more by focusing on other matters, instead of fussing over those 21 demonology points.

This is my last say on the matter, as I don't see any point in discussing 30/21/10 or different warlock tastes. The Compendium lists the default specs, with some alternatives that are popular, detailing tradeoffs made. That's all it needs to, so my work is done on that part.

 

rochan

Ah but the thing is, if 21/0/40 is so great because you get an imp but do less damage than 0/21/40, why not go 41/0/20 or a variant to get more damage as well as more utility?

It's simply a mediocre spec - it will do ok, but there are better specs out there.

 

Cronjob

Heh, I thanks for making my point. First you say 30/21/10 has the advantage because its an AOE fight. Then you say you lack imagination for situations when 30/21/10, actually shine... Which is it?

Any who, forget I mention it, this is just like the old Affliction vs Destro build where most folks just pick one side and fail to consider the other.

So it was said its crap for DPS, then IDK posts numbers showing not so. Then I post logs which again show its not crap for DPS. I knew by posting the logs somone would use the arguement well the other locks "suck" arguement or its a movement fight so 0/21/40 doesnt get to bolt spam, or its not dot friendly or pick any excuse. I'm sure I made mistakes too if you look closely where I could improve.

Its said the build lacks versatility and there aren't any fights where it will shine, yet by your own admission you say it shines in AOE fights.

Either way, I'm done with this.

 

Saethar

One thing worth adding to the Compendium is that Rank 3 Curse of the Elements should be used over Rank 4, and Rank 2 Curse of Shadow over Rank 3. The new, post-60 ranks of those Curses aren't prioritized in the debuff system, while their lower level counterparts are.

Both offer the increased 10% damage to their respective schools and cost less mana as an added benefit. The spell penetration they offer doesn't affect PvE targets.



EDIT: Oops, I just noticed it was mentioned to a certain extent in the first post.

 

Trickykid

You're correct if the raid is threat capped. If so, CoR increases the tank's threat gen in 2 ways. It ups his damage done by reduced armor, but also gives him more rage since he's taking more damage. However if the fight isn't threat-capped, that DPS increase shouldn't be counted.

 

Furio

I think you're missing the point. While I agree 30/21/10 has the highest damage SoC of any spec, that does not mean it "shines" in AOE fights. You'll note that from your own linked parse SoC accounts for just 43% of your DPS. Even in Morogrim, perhaps the fight most friendly to SoC spam, SoC generally does not account for more than 55% of top warlock's DPS (as evidenced by these parses). While not casting SoC, the rest of your damage is diminished relative to other specs. Is the slight AOE advantage on a few specific encounters worth the diminished DPS/Utility in every non-AOE aspect of raid encounters? Given that no one spec is strictly better than the others, would you rather be better than the rest at a small fraction of raiding or a large fraction?



To Arelenda: Thanks for the time and effort compiling this thread. I realize part of the spec debates come to down to "personal taste" in so far as willingness to min/max for a specific role. Further commentary on the topic is likely fruitless. Perhaps, though, it would be useful to more clearly denote the raid relevant differences between the default specs and the listed alternatives. For example:
"The Siphon Life spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Improved Life Tap and Siphon Life, making you more self reliant. Key talents are the standard destro ones (SnF, Ruin, +8% crit) and Siphon Life. Not as high dps output as the default build, but does require less heals and Life Taps and provides Blood Pact."
...becomes:
"The Siphon Life spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Improved Life Tap and Siphon Life, making you more self reliant. Key talents are the standard destro ones (SnF, Ruin, +8% crit) and Siphon Life. As much as 15% less DPS than default build. Loses 15% shadow damage, 30 spell damage, 6% healing received, 18% Stamina, 3% Intellect, and Demonic Sacrifice. Gains unimproved Blood Pact (minimizes net stamina change), Improved Life Tap, Instant Corruption, Siphon Life, and -10% Affliction Threat."

 

PSGarak

"Versatility" doesn't mean much in the context of a pure dps class. From a raid perspective, damage by DOTs or damage by nukes is just damage. Yes, 30/21/10 has greater "versatility," but I don't see what good that is. Just like the threat value of CoR doesn't matter if your tank's threat is already top-notch, the self-reliance of 30/21/10 doesn't matter if your healers have mana to spare. And the odd thing is, either you or they will have more mana to spare with 21/40 or 40/21, depending on who has the happy shadow priest, so it can easily end up being a wash anyways.
Perhaps we can name 30/21/10 "Seed Spec"? =P

As far as 21/0/40... yeees, the difference is capped at 15%... 15% is fucking huge. If one of my dpsers was underperforming by 15% they'd get a swift kick in the ass and told to stop falling asleep or let their younger brother play their account. While the real difference is going to be smaller, it's not going to be by much. Siphon Life is a piddling little spell for damage and the talents between 7 and 21 affliction don't really do much but set up talents further down the tree. My suggestion would be to stop at 7 in affliction flesh out a few talents in destro, and get some toys in demo instead. Something like this. Just as 'viable' for raiding but more fun and flexible outside.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

• frmorrison

Some of the Hyjal trash (the felhunters) and a +all resistance aura, Supremus has very high fire resist, and Illidari council can cast a 250 to all resist buff.


Certainly those are limited, but worth noting.


If you don't have debuff slot issues, you should pay the extra 100 mana just in case.

 

Arelenda

I poked around that WWS for a bit, and found that, given ruin and 8% more crit, the damage was about equal for both specs. But that's not why I'm posting.

I noticed a major difference in debuffs in both raids.

Here's the details on Hydross from Cronjob's WWS on Fate's Hand Hydross Kill:
Hydross the Unstable - WWS -- recorded by a Hunter


And here's details on Hydross from a Hydross kill from my own raiding guild, TFR:
Hydross the Unstable - WWS -- recorded by an enhancement Shaman

Note the huge difference in debuffs. One Thunder Clap. One CoR (which lasts 2 minutes). ONE application of Shadow Vulnerability.

Can anyone with more experience than me with WWS explain the existence of this discrepance? At first I figured it was because debuffs were being reapplied before they ran out (and therefore not shown in the combat log), but Hydross seems to get debuffed by Mind Flay 11 times, despite a Shadow Priest in FH doing 100% of his damage on Hydross, almost half of it through Mind Flay.

The only plausible explanation I can come up with, is that the FH log is recorded by a Hunter, and the TFR one by a melee person. Apparently range has a huge impact on debuff logging by WWS. Can anyone confirm this?

 

• frmorrison

If the debuffer casts the debuff before the last one runs out or if the debuff is shared among players, like Mind Flay, it is possible to have just one debuff in WWS the whole right (since other priests are casting Mind Flay at different times, effectively rolling the debuff).

In addition, sometimes WWS does not pickup debuffs for some reason.

 

Krathis

haha.. I like this. If I'm ever feeling rich I may roll into AV after 2.3 with this spec and drop nothing but seeds.

Back on topic, discovered something pretty important concerning ISB uptime today. The debuff is counted when the spell leaves your hands. So if three warlocks have bolts in the air on a mob with one charge left all three will receive the benefits of the debuff even if none of those shadow bolts crit. Granted the way I tested it was on Dr. Boom by putting ISB up and then starting my cast with three seconds left on the debuff. So while it's possible that the debuff works differently when it's the charges that make it fall off rather then it expiring I find it more likely that the code uses one standard. Curses work the same way, if you cast shadow bolt and then drop curse of shadows before your shadow bolt lands you will not receive the added damage from the curse and the opposite is true if you have curse of shadows up, cast a shadow bolt, and then drop a curse of weakness to overwrite your curse of shadows, the shadow bolt will receive the benefit of the first curse.

So any build with a 36 yard range on shadow bolts will affectively get more use out of ISB then any build that does not because of the longer in flight time of their shadow bolts.

 

Arelenda

I noticed this behaviour when coding ShadowSeer. The debuff application usually lags 0.5-0.7seconds behind the crit too. There's all kinds of weirdness in ISB debuff, which is why I don't really trust any theorethical model for it.

 

Furio

This is exactly correct. If you see more than one Misery, CoR, COS, etc, it means that the debuff fell off and was reapplied.

 

Pentamorfi

I also suspect that happens with Nightfall procs, though it's harder to test. If both crit the damage they do is about the same, meaning the debuff from the first crit shadowbolt isn't instantly applied on the mob.

 

Darkmantle

It's the same case with frost nova on a target then icelance at the same time even if one breaks the frost nova they both get the 50% more crit because their damage and crit chance is decided when they leave your hands not when they hit the target. This is probably done for computational reasons.

This is my speculation about how the servers handle spells and is in no way fact.
It is easier if the server knows a 3k shadowbolt is traveling towards the target with 35% crit rate all it has to do is workout whether it hits/crits/resists on the target(that the fate of the spell is not determined when you cast it can be clearly seen by rogues vanishing deathcoils and the like). The alternative of calculating damage when the target is hit would require the server to lookup the casters spell damage and buffs which could lead to a delay in the damage actually being done. Previously dots had their damage calculated moment to moment from the caster so you could put dots up pop a damage trinket and the dots would start hitting harder along with your sexy shadowbolts. Now the base damage is calculated from your +dmg at casting and each tick checks for debuffs on the mob. Coa used to be even weirder because it would be cast from the warlock, so if the warlock died or went out of range then coa would stop doing damage.

Edit: I tried hitting icon after I had completed a shadowbolt but before it reached the mob and it didn't seem like the shadowbolt got the damage bonus.