◊ Kyth

Despite the fire talents in the destruction tree, I agree with you. Not having a fire-damage curse or any other dots beyond immolate feels exceedingly unwarlocky.

The lack of a fire-based curse in particular rubs me the wrong way for some reason (despite the fact that our current curse design means I rarely get to cast CoD.)

Officer of <Fusion>
http://www.stratfu.com/ - StratFu: Strategies, Guides, Movies, and Tips for Wrath Raiding

 

• Slake

The new Emberstorm/Incinerate talent change is exactly analogous to Bane/Shadow Bolt, in that it reduces the base cast time on Incinerate to 2.25 seconds. This changes the rate at which haste scales the spell, while not affecting the coefficient of Incinerate.

Collecting a lot of data on the PTR shows that it's pretty much 0.9*2.5/(1 + haste) for the cast time, rather than 2.5/(1.1*(1 + haste)), so the talent actually scales better than if it worked the other way around.

+Ma's Reversing

 

Kirion

If i got it right, this calculations are without scorch debuff on mob?

42.

 

Madlax

Fixing the ISB-consumptions to a given percent should not be too hard no, I´ll see about that later today.
Immolate will be harder to model yes and I didn't have any thoughts about whether it would improve or reduce DPS due to Incinerate simply being not used by now.
Taking small adjustments is easy but requires some more feedback from you.

As for the theory crafters:
What would an adjusted ISB rather look like then - going from a Brutallus viewpoint with 3 locks and 1 spriest.
15% ISB bonus? 3 instead of 4 charges?
Note: I'm calcing it based on a realistic model as I randomize each and every SB.

Incinerate base build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Seems ok.

SB base build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Immolate + Incinerate
I recall Incinerate getting full bonus of Immolation when cast, even if Immolation expires during the cast.
That correct or does it have to be on the target while the IC hits? *which I don't think*

But hey, were getting there.

#Update: Found a error in the cataclysm calculation.
Immolate ~60% done, need to play with values a little to check.
Adding 18 resistances aswell in the end calculation.

 

Flamingcloud

The spreadsheet doesn't need int added, just utilize the health and mana fields more.

Immolate is a dps upgrade if you have every fire talent and the new haste reducing global cooldown is in, so I don't see how that skews to incin... And I certainly don't see how getting to consume every sb tick you produce (I assume you also meant no overlap) is helpful to incin.

You can basicly test it right now on the spreadsheet by just doing +10% haste when your in incin spec. It is obviously close enough that one more nerf to shadow/isb would make incin considerably better.

 

Drade

Its currently 15% off of maximum mana and health.

Lifetap subtracts 1501 hp, gives 1358 mana (10001/9234 hp/mana) on the current PTR build.

10001*.15=1500.1
9234*.15=1385.1

Both numbers are consistent regardless of what my current hp/mana is. Didnt test with Imp LT, but you mentioned it was working properly.

 

weet

I played around with the numbers yesterday with fire vs shadow with raid buffs + shaman + shadowpriest (what i personally raid with). This is without factoring in the lifetap change which has not been modelled yet afaik. I left coe and cos at both 1.10 modifiers. So effective mp5 was 419, and fight length was 360 seconds (Brut length, i see no reason to model anything longer as nothing thus far is longer without any movement time).
2.3 endgame sets see a 130dps increase from fire --> shadow
2.4 endgame sets see a 100-110 dps increase from fire --> shadow

One thing I was expecting was a lower lifetap time needed for fire specs, but once you add in immolate into the rotation, a shadow build only lifetapped once every 32 seconds as opposed to 33 for fire. Adding Judgement of Wisdom and mana pots (so roughly 600 mp5) gave 64 seconds per lifetap for shadow and 70 for fire.

So the difference in efficiency is really not that big. The real question for me is assuming one 38/2/21 shadow lock as a base, how much does each 21/40 lock contribute to raid dps due to ISB uptime given either 2 or 3 shadow priests? I find this work out so help would be appreciated, but I am guessing that in reality it is basically even. So unless we see another shadow related nerf most will probably stay as is.

 

tetracycloide

Mana is derived from INT so I'm not sure what the difference is using one over the other. INT is already a field on the sheet and adding a TNS value for it would also allow the extra crit from int to be factored in as well.

ISB uptime goes up when adding an additional lock, not down, therefor only benefiting from your own ISB is a DPS reduction from a typical raid scenario. I'm assuming the model was correctly allowing ISB to time out after 12 secs if not consumed which, in a shadowbolt spam build like 21/40, would result in benefiting from fewer ISB charges than you would in a raid scenario.

Adding immolate to the incinerate rotation is not necessarily a DPS downgrade but it throws off the scaling rates for haste and crit. Obviously with a much smaller portion of the spell being capable of the crit bonus immolate will always scale worse with crit. Haste is a little trickier after the 2.4 GCD change, basically will divide the blocks of spam time available into staggered blocks. Now the current sheet averages all of that out across infinity so it will not show there but there will be points where adding haste to a shadowbolt build will add DPS that will not add DPS to the immolate + incinerate model. Shadow builds will have greater flexibility in their cast sequencing because the do no require a debuff to be recast on the target at fixed intervals to deal full damage.

My vanity is justified.

 

Madlax

Well, took a while to get some logic into the calculation.

Thats Incinerate + Immolate vs SB with all ISB self consumed(we want to make this biased again yes!)

And this
Is a sample output of the cast rotation.
1400spelldam, 600 crit, 300 haste, 360 secs duration, all talents how they should be.

Trade-offs?
140.07 Hit 3438
140.57 Immolate stops burning here
141.96 Hit 3490
143.22 tapped for IM @ 313 Mana left.
144.48 Immolated 5251

And yes, I cheated on the Immolate - all damage at the inital cast(cba to do timestamps and threads currently)
Could be better, still not perfect.

And I am desperate to hear quality conclusions now - mine goes towards using Incinerate.

 

hackmage

I tried searching and I didn't see anything posted on a 40/21 spec. It's really popular with some of my guild's locks and one of the best geared locks on our server. I tried it and thought it was horrible, but I may not have had enough crit. to make it work. It goes down to SL and DK in demo and down to Ruin in destro. Has anyone seen this kind of spec. work, and what kind of stats do you need for it? And would it be better to just go classic 21/40?

 

Zether

At what point should I stop worrying about the 2 piece t4 bonus?

I was using the t4 helm, t4 robe, along with the studious wraps.

Just the other day I won the Cowl of the Grand Engineer from VR.

I immediately socketed it with 3 runed living rubies and lost the meta gem of the t4 helm. I also replaced the studious wraps with the t4 gloves to keep the 2 piece bonus.

Should I say screw the 2 piece bonus, and put the studious wraps back on? or should I say screw the Cowl and put the t4 helm on, so i can use studious wraps again?

I'm at barely over 1100 shadow damage unbuffed, barely over 22% crit unbuffed, and 167 spell hit (im ALWAYS in a group with an elem shaman so that's all i need right?)

I just don't know these fine lines yet. And my guild is about to kill KT so we're almost in hyjal/BT

 

Arelenda

Demo with a Succubus?

It's listed in the compendium and I've tried this build myself, it's a personal favorite. I enjoyed playing it.

In the end I went back to 0/21/40 because I got tired of buffing issues, and I wanted full focus on encounters at hand, and having to focus on a succubus distracted me from that. We were learning BT at the time. And I didn't have a talisman.

With around 200-250 spellpower gained from DK and 5% crit from DT, combined with the 15.5% damage bonus you get from Soul Linked Succubus that still can dps, it is a powerful build. That power comes at a price: the succubus dies easily. It requires _very_ good control of your pet to pull off. I don't recommend it for people without 2p T5 2p and a [Void Star Talisman].

At _very_ high gear levels 0/21/40 probably outdoes it consistently, because SnF simply scales better than anything else and the demonic tactics bonus barely scales with gear. I say probably, because if the succubus is allowed to dps it might be close. No lash of pain, though. That's a major ISB sin.

 

Arelenda

ShadowSeer tells you that stuff, under procs. It hasn't been updated in a while because I got fed with damage reporting not being consistent, but that particular thing it measures well. It'll tell you what % of spells were affected and assign and overall spellpower bonus to it.

I've been holding off the rewrite until 2.4.

 

tusaki

I have a question for all you theorycrafters who are better with math than me.

I've been trying to figure out how much +shadowdamage you must get (buffed) to see 10K shadowbolt crits assuming 0/21/40, 4 piece T6, chaotic meta gem. (against +3 boss)

Also, if you figure it out, could you also post the math? I've been wondering what I'm doing wrong. Here's my attempt:

D = max_shadowbolt_damage + (SDbuffed*coef) * curse_multiplier * shadowpriest_multiplier * crit_multiplier * gem_multiplier * ISB_multiplier * Succubus_multiplier * T6_Bonus.

max_shadowbolt_damage = 603
SDbuffed = what we want to know
coef = 105.71% (shadow and flame)
curse_multiplier = 110% (no malediction here)
shadowpriest_multiplier = 105%
crit_multiplier = 200%
gem_multiplier = 103%
ISB_multiplier = 120%
Succubus_multiplier = 115%
T6_Bonus = 106%


10000 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 * 1.06 | / 1.06
9433 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 | / 1.15
8203 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 | / 1.20
6836 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 | / 1.03
6637 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 | / 2.00
3318 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 | / 1.05
3160 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 | / 1.10
2873 = 603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571) | - 603
2270 = SDBuffed * 1.0571 | / 1.0571
2147 = SDBuffed

I must be doing something wrong since it seems just a tad too high :S probably some things are additive or there is a certain order?

 

tsuKii

Seems you only add 5% for shadowpriest, should be 15%, 5% is just only misery?

 

dakalro

From what I've calculated fast the LT change isn't that huge, just bad, like 30-50 dps, makes the difference between healer group and spriest group higher and will probably scale down with sunwell loot.

Very retarded way to nerf something, I'd rather it kept current scaling just make it a higher ratio of hp (20%?, Imp LT would bring it in line) or just increase the % more and do rest of the tuning once WotLK comes and gear gets reitemized (at this point I've gained ~15% mana from upgrades while getting ~25% more damage while fully buffed).

Just wish they'd explain the change and think it through a bit better, there certainly is plenty of time left on PTR to get it right and ideas from players that know exactly what's desired of the change would be a lot better than anything a dev that doesn't play would achieve.

 

Spoonman

You can also up the curse modifier from 1.1 to 1.13 to allow for Malediction. Also I think you should possibly change crit modifier and gem modifier to a single modifier of 2.09, which I believe is how the CSD and Ruin actually stack. This seems to put the shadow damage required at 1811.

 

• Zakalwe

Also, due to the way the gem is implemented, it actually gives a 4.5% buff when you have Ruin. Looks like the correct number is 1865 or so?

 

dakalro

Yup, got 10k+ crits with ISB up and ring + Icon on, rare but fun

 

Flamingcloud

The 2.4 end game set doesn't have anywhere near 600 crit rating.. Are you converting base, and the 8% crit from talents into crit rating?

Edit: Oh and spriests give 10% and 5% not 15%, 10% and 5% is better.

 

Morwen

CSD-Ruin crits are 209% instead of 2*1.03.

Edit: beaten badly, so I'll just add that the actual multiplier with Shadow Weaving and Malediction taken into account is
1.13 (CoS) * 1.05 (Misery) * 1.10 (Weaving) * 2.09 (crit) * 1.20 (ISB) * 1.15 (DS) * 1.06 (T6) = 3.99, that means buffed shadow damage at 1801 should be enough to make it a possibility.

 

Flamingcloud

Pretty sure I remember a patch notes fixing that.

 

Roywyn

Um, I don't think so.

They fixed this and the effect of resilience on crit talents for the RED meta gem, the melee one.
After that, they made RED not affect spells.
And after that, they added the CSD with the mechanics of the old RED before it was patched.

Easy way to test? Cast Immolate until it crits, it does fixed damage. Check if it's 209% or less (206%/203%).

 

Flamingcloud

Sure appears to be 209% although my immolate seemed to like to hit for different amounts abit (but the highest amount * 209% seemed to match the crit)

 

• Emolate

I've never gone out of my way to stack +crit.

The 0/40/21 build is great for a couple of things:

* You sometimes need a lot less threat to stay alive. Having the Imp out guarantees you a spot 10 rows down from the Main Tank.
* Your raid group cries incessantly about needing an Improved Blood Pact and you're tired of hearing about it.
* When you can keep the Succubus alive, it's nice to have that percentage bump.
* When you are in need of resistance and a lot of health via Soul Link, Felhunter is available.

Having an Improved Imp will bump your spelldamage up about 300 points. That's pretty awesome, and the cheapest way to stack damage.

The Succubus is a great damage buff on top of the (less-than-Imp) damage bonus you get from having her active, but it is too difficult to keep her alive in many cases. Dragonhawk avatar in Zul'aman, for example. Any fight with AoE. You will not be able to get a Soul Link benefit off her except in very specific situations, because she can't take much of you getting hit.

With raid buffs my Imp has around 3400+ health and gives party members around 800 health.

I bounce back and forth between 0/40/21 and 0/21/40, depending on my tanks.

If for some horrible reason I need to have the Imp out in 0/21/40, I can still churn out around 1000 dps of Shadow Bolts and my gear is nothing special. The 0/40/21 build is the only reason I didn't claw my eyes out fighting Void Reaver, however.

As for "what stats do you need for it" questions, your best bet is to just put yours into the spreadsheet and model them yourself. You could even play around on Warcrafter and change your talent spec, gear, gems, and buffs to get a pretty good idea of what you could do with what you've already got, and what you should focus on first.

Unless your armory isn't your raiding gear --

I will say that the reason you found 0/40/21 horrible, and why you would find 0/21/40 even more horrible, is that you're wearing a bunch of PVP gear and have no spellhit.

PVP gear looks almost like the real thing, but it certainly doesn't work as well.

You're also not carrying nearly enough points in Suppression to compensate for your lack of gear.

You're doing 5/5 Shadow Embrace though, which at your gear level is one of the best things you can do for the raid, since your Shadow Bolts are going to miss too much to benefit from going into the other two trees. If you put points into Suppression and take them out of improved Curse of Agony you wouldn't have to re-cast Unstable Affliction and your dots, too.

In short -- stacking crit is probably the worst possible thing you could do at this point.

If that isn't what you show up to raids in, it would be helpful to have that available, or just run the numbers yourself in Warcrafter or the various spreadsheets (in the first post in this thread).