galzohar

Lieuler's spreadsheet will easily account for the extra DPS you get from mana regen (assuming you set everything properly especially fight duration).

 

Cerebro

Good day EJ community !!

It is my first time posting here and i would like to start of by saying that i am really bad in the math part of theory crafting etc. Hence the reason i turn to you guys. I have a small question regarding my talent spec. Since Karazhan i've always been an UA-warlock and doing very well with this spec. Even deep into t6 i am still UA, for the simple reason i like the playstyle more then a classic 0/21/40 spec.

But because of yesterdays browsing through the forums i started to think that RUIN might be more beneficial for the raid then UA, but that means i might have to make some gear changes, since atm as an UA-warlock i always fully focussed on Spell Hit > Spell Dmg and nothing more. Now with RUIN i would have to add Spell crit to that.

The guild i am in is flooded with warlocks and our general rule is that they must spec they do best dmg with. So we have some RUIN locks who specced malediction, some shadow destro warlocks and some UA-warlocks. It is a semi-casual guild sorta speak =) In general my warlock CO who is RUIN and myself who is UA are topping the dmg meters. (fight depended as well ofc)

So first i would like to give some information about my character.

Cerebro - Gnome Warlock - Member of RECKLESS - Chromaggus EU.
First my old spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (classic UA spec)
My new Ruin spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (classic RUIN spec)

My Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Stats:
1393 Shadow Dmg ( In combat with darkmoon trinket fully procced)
203 Spell hit rating (16.09%)
11.87% Crit chance (plus 5/5 Devastation)

Level of Progress: Illidari Council at the moment.

My concern is that my crit rating is way to low for RUIN to out dps my UA-spec. Since i always fully focussed on dmg instead of crit.

Now my questions are;

1. Are these stats good enough for RUIN?
2. If not, Is it wise to change any gems to make it more suitable for RUIN?
3. Any general tips on how to improve my gear to make it more suitable for RUIN.

So far i only have the cloak and the wrist from t6 content because i was in-active for some time because of the birth of my daughter, but now i am back, so any suggestion for gear swaps are welcome as well. My current aim lies at the off hand from Rage.

I hope to get some tips from you guys,
Thanks in advance,
Regards.

 

Vazu

Any Affliction build that doesn't include UA isn't a raiding build.
Any Destruction build that doesn't include 5/5 S&F isn't a raiding build.

Those are two pretty simple rules to go by. It may be boring, but it's true. As far as gear goes, if you're on Council, I'll assume you are also killing Archimonde. Which generally means you should have good enough gear to go Destro, assuming you've been there since the beginning.

 

Eph

1. Look at the spreadsheet, change your specs in it and see what wins out.
2. Gem for +dmg, unless meeting a meta requirement.
3. I can't see your armory at the moment so no specific suggestions there.

Personally I'd gain ~40 dps by choosing Ruin over UA if I were to go Affliction. However, it is a 300-400dps loss from Destruction.

 

Madlax

Going with 12000 base mana, 6 minute dps circle of Immolate/Incinerate casts, no mp5 and always getting healed from taps:
1911 DPS - 16 taps

With 3 mana pots
1924 DPS - 14 taps

With trinket on top(same stats)
1937 DPS - 13 taps

hope that helps some of your theorycrafts for the trinket

 

galzohar

If you're destruction there is no reason to gem for damage over hit if you're not capped - but yeah for affliction gems=dmg.

As for ruin I think enough had been said already. Look at the spreadsheet and find out what's most likely to be true - that you do not have the gear to make ruin affliction better than UA. Saying that affliction without UA isn't a raiding build is ignorant though, as there actually are people that have everything they could possibly wish for in the game and for them ruin is definitely better than UA if you force them to get 5/5 shadow embrace (or else they would've specced 0/21/40 like every self-respecting dps warlock that isn't required to spec shadow embrace).

 

Krazen

Some theorycraft about fire 2.4 locks and haste:

Note that this only applies in the case of a single lock raid due to the immolate debuff. In the event you have multiple fire locks, somebody's immolate is bound to be up.

Our new immolate/incinerate cycle operates much like a mage's scorch/fireball cycle, with the first attack debuffing the mob as a setup for the primary attack. The key difference is that we cannot renew our 'debuff' early without penalty (DoT clipping), and unless conflag is tremendously buffed, we cannot clear the debuff and restart the cycle without penalty.

The nature of the immolate debuff is also static. It lasts a flat 15 seconds.

With 0 haste, you can fit a perfect 1:6 rotation in a 15 second timeframe:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.5 seconds: immolate hits
next 13.5 seconds: Cast 6 incinerates
15 seconds: Cast immolate:
16.5 seconds: Immolate expires, new immolate hits

And so on.

As you add haste, you have extra time in the 15 second window. The problem is that that time isn't long enough for a 7th debuffed incinerate. You can obviously lifetap if needed and restart the cycle, or use the weakened incinerate cast.

So my question is: Is haste going to truly scale linearly (or approximately so on the range of acquirable gear), or are we going to see haste 'breakpoints' in which marginal gains are amplified due to the ability to move to a 1:7 or 1:8 cycle?

 

Presarc

That's a great point, and really another feather in shadow's hat. I'm lazy, but do you know the exact amount of haste needed to make it a 1:7 or 1:8 cycle?

 

Madlax

Depends on your haste gear and your mana pool as well as regen.
The total thing is HARD to picture, since you´d have to calculate in a bunch of factors but I can try putting the easy version down:

As you stated, but 2.25 cast time:
1.5 immolate hits
3.75 IC
6 IC
8.25 IC
10.5 IC
12.75 IC
15 IC
16.5 immolate runs out
(17.25 IC)

You would want to cast another Immolate at 15.1 in such a cycle.

Mana cost: 445 + 6/7x355 // *0.95 with cataclysm
422 + 6x337 = 2445 mana
Means, if you sit at ~12225 mana you fit into that circle, just that you miss 1.x seconds for a Life Tap to make it perfect at this point.
150 haste(no lag)
1.37 Immolated 5112
3.42 Hit 3381
5.47 Crit 6838
7.52 Hit 3362
9.58 Crit 6597
11.63 Crit 6561
13.68 Hit 3302
15.74 Potential 7th hit
16.37 Immolate stops burning here
The 6th hit + Tap Time(1.37) + Immolate cast time(1.37) need to be > 16.37
16,42 > 16.37, so yes that works.

Trying to fit a 7th Incinerate in that circle:
2782 mana required, that would be 13905 mana(without any mp5 regen!)
400 haste:
1.2 Immolated 3837
3.0 Crit 6795
4.8 Hit 3272
6.59 Hit 3338
8.38 Hit 3413
10.18 Crit 6660
11.97 Hit 3293
13.77 Crit 6663
15.56 Potential 8th hit
16.2 Immolate stops burning here
13.77 + 2x1.2 = 16.17
So at 400 haste, without calcing any lag, you´re almost managing a 7th IC in the circle.

400 haste realistic to achieve?
Top Sunwell raiding gear gives you very very close to 400 haste(with JC neck), gemmed with haste/dam and 2 blue gems only.
Is the 2781 mana/cycle achievable?
Well 12000 mana isn´t too much of a problem with TOP sunwell gear again.
The 337 additional mana in this 15 seconds cycle would mean you need to get 112 mp5 from another source. Spriest, JoW or whatever.

My 3 cents again

 

Soul

That would add at least one GCD to every bout of lifetapping you do. I'm not sure if haste affects the cooldown incurred when you swap weapons, but if it does not, then it's even worse.

 

PSGarak

Depending the DPCT of immolate, and how it scales with crit and haste, it might be advantageous to assign a single immolate-bitch for a gaggle of fire-destro warlocks. Choosing which one is an interesting discussion: most damage, or least crit, or what?

As far as how it scale with haste, by doing your necessary lifetapping in the middle of the cycle instead of on the ends, you can shave multiples of three-quarters of a second, pre-haste, modulo 2.25, off the cycle and still have it fit perfectly. You're right in that there will be breakpoints where you don't actually get additional spells (or rather, you lose a tick of immolate by refreshing early if that's preferable), but they're finer than the breakpoints to a 1:7 cycle.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

weet

Can people stop posting this as it is incorrect at high gear levels assuming single target. Even before including raid ISB benefit of more sb casts with high crit chance.

Just increases the amount of people who will go back to their guild and say 'Some guy on EJ said this' assuming it is always correct.

 

Madlax

Just wanted to add another thing before someone asks:
Any relation from growing spellhaste to amounts of taps needed?
12000 mana + 0 haste: 18 taps
12000 mana + 50 haste: 19 taps
12000 mana + 150 haste: 20 taps
12000 mana + 200 haste: 21 taps
12000 mana + 300 haste: 22 taps
12000 mana + 350 haste: 23 taps
12000 mana + 400 haste: 23 taps
Again note: These are calculated cycles for a 360 seconds duration, no mp5 regen involved and from a self written(yet x times checked) program.

 

Eph

In this scenario the amount of Life Taps per 6 minutes doesn't mean a lot (unless you are thinking about healing received.) The Life Tap to damage dealt ratio should remain the same with haste if there is no other source of mana regen. Haste should only see diminishing returns in relation to mana consumption when taking Shadow Priests, Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Totems, or Super Mana Potions into account. I'd be interested in seeing numbers related to that.

 

Krazen

Yep, I have it barely. You need a 2.14 second incinerate to fit 7 in a 15 second window.

Keep in mind that a cycle can vary in length, slightly. You can recast immolate before it expires, trying to land it right as the previous one expires, or you can try to squeeze in that last incinerate, let immolate drop off, and recast it then.

For example, I've done some Dr. Boom testing with a 1:7 cycle, and a 2.12 second cast.

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 14.84 seconds: Cast 7 incinerates
16.22 seconds: Cast immolate
16.38 seconds: Immolate falls off
17.60 seconds: Immolate hits

Thus, my cycle is 16.22 seconds rather than 15 seconds, but I do get the extra cast in theory. In practice, its a random chance as to whether I get the 7th cast with the bonus damage. Of course, I do lose a little over a second of immolate uptime per cycle.

But there are 2 options for lifetapping: a shorter cycle aiming for maximum immolate uptime, or a longer cycle aiming for that extra incinerate.

Including Lifetap at the end of the cycle:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 14.84 seconds: Cast 7 incinerates
16.22 seconds: Lifetap
16.38 seconds: Immolate falls off
17.60 seconds: Cast immolate
18.98: immolate hits

Or, including Lifetap mid cycle:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 12.72 seconds: Cast 6 incinerates
14.1 seconds: Lifetap
15.48: Cast immolate
16.38 Immolate falls off
16.86: Immolate hits



On my 2.4 spreadsheet, the 7 cast cycle comes out to 2099 dps, while the 6 cast one comes out to 2087 dps. Of course, it also uses more mana, as you are lifetapping less often.








In response to PSGarak: I cannot imagine any reasonable gearset in which immolate's DPCT is less than incinerate, assuming you have the 10% talent.

 

Morakk

I know that doing them separately would incur an extra GCD; that's why I asked if it was possible to do it with the GCDs stacked, perhaps with a macro like

/equip Greens of Int
/use Life Tap

and then switch back to normal weapons on the next SB cast.

I'd test this myself, but my efforts to log on to the PTR have all failed.

 

Arelenda

Uh, you can swap weapon, offhand, ranged slots without any cooldowns at all. Mages had been using the spirit weapon + evocation trick for a while, before it became int based. Warriors can swap to sword&board and a tank gun without any cooldowns incurred. Did they change it on the PTR?

 

Morakk

Yeah I was being dumb, there is no cooldown on swapping weapons.

I am still curious, does swapping to int weapons with a macro during the lifetap give you the benefit of the extra intellect?

If it does, you would gain 187 mana going from Tempest of Chaos + Chronicle of Dark Secrets + I forget what the Solarian wand is called, to [Ascendant's Scepter] of intellect w/ int enchant + [Draenei Crystal Rod] of int + [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] with a 10 int gem, with kings and fel intellect.

 

• Spuncan

Swapping weapons while in combat does activate the GCD.

Adding it up, for me currently, swapping in INT-heavy weapons ([Amani Divining Staff] and a [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick]) would give about 300 more Mana back from a Life Tap. While you can mitigate the switch-back GCD by placing the swap after a Shadowbolt cast in a macro, I think the single 1.5 second GCD would be a greater loss than the extra 300 or so mana.

 

Morakk

But if you switch weapons at the same time as you lifetap, there's no extra cooldown.

 

Anedris

Because lifetap is an instant, I'm not sure you can manage it. Consider:

/cast lifetap
/equip <int weapons>

Presumably this would fail since you would lifetap before swapping weapons, thus defeating the point of the exercise. Alternatively:

/equip <int weapons>
/cast lifetap

I believe the weapon swap will activate the GCD, thus preventing you from lifetapping for 1.5 seconds.

Weapon swapping with cast time spells works because spell damage is calculated at the completion of the cast, so you can begin the cast and then swap weapons. Lifetap being an instant means that this is impossible, because lifetap "casts" the moment you begin the cast (i.e., when you press the button).

I haven't actually tested this, so if someone has do correct me, but I believe that's the problem.

 

Morakk

For what it's worth, I just tested on my priest on live, and doing something similar to that does affect the healing done by my renew.

Off topic, but has anyone else had problems logging on to the PTR after transferring a second character?

 

Eph

Just tried it, doesn't look like it'll work for Life Tap.

 

• moghed

What kind of dot gap were you using? I've found that the average dot gap is the reason that Ruin overtakes UA with higher levels of gear. Not having as many dots to cast means you lose less damage due to this. It's also a good reason to have someone with marginal destruction gear switch TO destruction. It's just simply easier to play.

 

galzohar

Obviously losing a GCD isn't worth it, but it may be possible that losing 200-300 spell damage on your shadowbolt may be worth the extra 300 mana. Probably not though, but I wouldn't rule it out without doing the math (which should actually be rather easy).