Flamingcloud

Um, 2.29 in the setup I had logged off in..

I wouldn't trust maxdps for much of anything, if the spreadsheet shows council higher, i'd believe it.


I show twisted at 288.41 in both fields, and wub's at 298.42 counting hit, and 272.39 not counting hit... A 16 point difference.


I found found in practice that spell haste seems to be even better than the spreadsheets indicate (ring of ancient knowledge vs band of the eternal sage)

 

Eph

I too have almost always found the Healing cloak to be 2nd best in slot behind Illidari cloak.

 

Darumafm

I have read the post by the op and was wondering if Spellcloth because of the fire damage would be a viable spec for raiding rather than shadowcloth. This was something that me and my wife who has a Shadow Priest were wondering about since Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft this posted build has is built for fire damage. I have been 70 with my Lock for awhile and had never used Elitist Jerks until it was recommended by a friend for my Shaman. So I just spec'd her with a traditional raiding spec. This is her Armory link I am new to Elititst Jerks and posting on the Forums and I hope it is ok to add this link to my post. I thought it might help. The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Arelenda

Welcome to the boards. Word of advice to a first time poster: no need to sign your posts.

About your question: it's hard to tell, really. I typically don't speculate on test realms, given that they can change at any time (i.e. the life tap changes). I'll make an exception here.

Fire destro seems to be getting a nice buff, which will probably make it better than shadow in smaller groups (say a heroic or 10 man without a shadow priest). End game raiding probably will still be see shadow win, since ISB is still a main factor. But it'll be closer and very much depending on raid setup and fights. This is all hypothetical and subject to change. Currently I wouldn't bet my money either way.

I'd recommend not making the set just yet. You could level tailoring and specialize already, building a cloth supply, if you so wish.

 

Pyralissa

I uh... actually have a full set of crafted spellfire in my bank from early on in TBC when Incinerate looked like the new Shadow Bolt. Lots of scaling issues later.. let's just say I haven't taken the spellfire out of the bank in awhile.

I personally think the ability to switch between fire and shadow depending on the situation is going to be very useful (especially in ten mans where you might have a fire mage and not have a shadow priest, or enough warlocks to carry ISB) but lifetap not scaling through +fire damage is a fairly significant drawback.

 

Brachamul

Hey all,

I've recently been dwelling a lot on Destro and I've got a question for you.

It seems to be much agreed upon that ISB is a big boost to raid DPS on top of just the Warlock's, but I'm not really convinced about that.

About shadow priests, they will munch up charges with their [Shadow Word : Death] and their [Mind Blast], these spells are very weak compared to a Warlock's [Shadow Bolt]. I was thinking, in the end, doesn't the fact that priests will sometimes stop the warlock from using a charge overall reduce the effectiveness of ISB?

I mean, if you're at 35% crit, you'll throw in about 65 charges a minute, and use you yourself about 40. That's barely 25 charges left for the priests, wouldnt they munch through that very fast in a minute's time? Especially for raids that have a lot of Shadow Priests.

Otherwise, what if there was one warlock playing Shadow with ISB, applying debuffs for the raid, and other warlocks were damaging with Fire?

I've personally found that for 1100 spell damage, hitcapped and 30% critrate (including talents), Fire would deal more damage than spamming Shadow Bolt, even if all the Bolts were boosted by ISB. This is a table recording the results of my calculations. I would post the excel file, but I don't know where to host it.


Note: By DPS I mean damage divided by cast time. Minimal cast time is 1.5 seconds, global cooldown.

This includes Scorch, Misery, Shadow Weaving, CoE, CoS, Chaotic Skyfire metagem, all interesting Destro talents and no Demonic Sacrifice.

Using these numbers, I find that an Immolate + Incinerate x5 cycle would deal 1477 dps with Sacrificed Imp, while spamming Shadow Bolt would deal only 1429 dps with Sacrificed Succubus. Also, Fire is much more Mana efficient.

Also, murdering your imp is just plainly psychologicaly satisfying.

 

Arelenda

You seem to be forgetting that ISB will also boost all shadow based dots. All Corruptions, CoAs, UA, SW:P, Mind Flay, VT, Siphon Lifes, everything is being boosted while ISB is up. It does not just boost the 4 spells that remove charges.

Also, you're wrong about efficiency. Incinerate is a faster spell now, thus requiring more casts. In addition, it requires Immolate which is horribly expensive.

Assuming no haste, no latency and no mana reducing talents:
Fire cycle: Immolate + 6 * Incinerate (15 sec) : 2585 mana
Shadow cycle: Shadow Bolt * 6 (15 sec) : 2520 mana

This is assuming that you can squeeze 6 incinerates into the 15 second time frame for Immolate. If you can't, you'll do 5 making it even better for the Shadow Bolt side.

In addition, Shadow users can use +shadow damage items and get more mana out of life tap. This however might change with post 2.4 itemisation, I have to admit I haven't looked at those in depth. If all best items come with generic +damage there, this argument would no longer be valid.


Myself, I'm interested to see how this plays out. I'll try and update ShadowSeer when 2.4. is out, and see what the results are. I'd love be able to play with the much prettier Incinerate for a change.

 

Halens

I know this is a bit off topic, and is in the glossary of the Compendium however I wanted some further insight on the matter. My friend, who had my apply to his guild is 4/5 T6(Nick is Cained from Kilrogg in Still Life). I'm Spellstrike/FSW/Random pieces from TK/SSC(Minolta on armory). I am also 41/0/20 UA spec.

My friend stated his argument that because I have more shadow dmg pieces in my gear (1089 Shadowdmg, 891 Firedmg with FA) that I would benefit more from NOT using Immolate. Now at first I was skeptical, so I went to leuilir's and began calculating. According to the spreadsheet, at 1200 shadow-damage, and 1200 fire damage I would lose 25 DPS. At my current gear setting, I would lose 15 DPS. Now I'm trying weigh this between 60% more of an extra shadowbolt VS. a lesser damage Immolate. I have not gotten a chance to test it in a raid enviorment YET, however my friend is wanting me to test it out tomorrow in my trial. Is he correct and the spreadsheet wrong about the DPS gain, or is he mistaken?

In theory it make sense I just don't understand why the spreadsheet sees it other-wise.

The consumables I use are Flask of puredeath
Spelldmg food
MH spelldmg Elixir
Mana Potions/Health Potions

 

gargosch

Immolate Vs No-immolate As affliction?

Immolates base damage is 942, SB 572 so you need a lot more shadow damage, haste (befor 2.4) and crit to make SB better then immolate.

Easy solotion to check this is to use Dr. Damage. Calculate the dps in raid depending on what debuff you have on the
target. Depends a lot if you have SP, firemage, CoS(talented), CoE(talented) and ISB on the target. IF SB is close to
immolate in dps use Sb because it use less mana per second.

 

Pentamorfi

The general rule of thumb I've found to work in most cases is that in every 'normal gear' scenario (and by 'normal' I mean you don't have something crazy like 500 shadow damage more than fire), Immolate is a small DPS increase for affliction. On the other hand, 4/5 t6 and destro spec means you could safely drop Immolate.

 

• Emolate

Spellfire gear lacks the hit and stam that FSW has.

I have actually made the swap on the live realms already for testing and playing around a bit.

My typical 25-man raid composition will always have 2-4 mages spec'ed Icy Veins/Fire or Fire/Arcane. We may have a shadow priest. We will have another Warlock or two. One is Affliction/Ruin and the other is Demo 0/40/21.

In my 10-mans I will rarely have a Shadow Priest and frequently have a Fire Mage.

I went fire and have loved it. I have less +dmg and it is harder to get hit-capped, but I'm doing a lot more damage. I'm also doing a lot better on AoE encounters (Solarian/Jan'alai) due to Rain of Fire having less threat than Seed of Corruption, and the fire damage buffs help Rain of Fire hit harder. Since there are cases where I am the only Warlock (and I have been the sole shadow user at least once in Tempest Keep), I was putting up CoR and rotating CoE anyway, so I figure I may as well align myself with the Mages.

Even if I don't sacrifice the Imp I can push 950-1000dps out, and have been able to maintain 1100-1300 on a fight like Void Reaver, which is no small feat for someone in 2pT4 and craftable gear.

I have just the Spellfire robe, Spellstrike hood and pants, and I'm using T4 shoulders and gloves.

My other suit is Mantle of the Elven Kings, Spellstrike Hood, Voidheart Gloves & Pants.

I've been having great results with my move to Fire. It looks like it will get a nice bump in 2.4, too.

 

Kabale

What spec were you using as shadow? UA in FSW will beat Fire any day of the week at your gear level/progression. Probably even without a shadow priest. Not having a shadow priest in your raid is like having a dps warrior for tank - don't do it.

 

Halens

Well they are just taking us to SSC/TK for a trial. They will be then gearing whoever 'wins' up in preparation for sunwell. They will have a shadowpriest but I believe there arn't any mages who stack scorch so in my case immolate would be a liability I can see. My spec is 41/0/20

 

Brachamul

Easy question, do talents like the +10% shadow damage increase or the succubus' sacrifice increase the power of Life Tap by 10% or 15%?

 

Fizwidget

Nope, just 80% of +spell (and +Shadow) damage as listed on your character sheet.

Dauntless: "Incapable of being intimidated or discouraged; fearless"

 

• Emolate

I was using this spec.

Even with a Shadow Priest or two in the raid, I would have one other Warlock.

We are a very casual guild. We don't have any requirements on anyone other than survivability. This hasn't prevented us from being 2/4 TK, however.

Frankly I'm of the opinion that I'm hopelessly stupid at Affliction. I could never make it work the way other people could. I get much better results in 0/40/21 or 0/21/40 fire or shadow.

 

Turbo Moses

Agreed, but if it isn't about meeting a socket/meta bonus and you're capped, go for haste. It's a larger DPS increase.

 

Flamingcloud

According to the spreadsheet the ranking is +12dmg, +6dmg/5haste, +10haste. (atleast at my gear level, as well as at end sunwell gear level.. didn't test a middle sunwell level)

 

Krazen

Basically my viewpoint. 10 haste might beat 12 dmg ever so slightly now, but I'm not convinced that will be the case when I have so much more haste thru gear than I do now.

 

Flamingcloud

Heh diminishing returns on haste is interesting.... If my gems are a mix of reckless pyrestone, and crimson spinel, it tells me +10haste is the best gem.. If I change all my gems to 10haste.. it tells me +12dmg is the best.. Seems like the tipping point is around 16-17% haste(although this probably changes at different gear levels.. this is +1650shadow, 17%haste 16%hit 28%crit). After that point it goes +12dmg > +6dmg/+5haste > +10haste.. before that point it goes +10haste > +6dmg/5+haste >+12dmg

 

zanaris

I wanted to make a new thread for this because I haven't seen this kind of question truly addressed in any thread let alone a completely new one, and the GCD change with haste rating is going to affect all caster classes.

I think it's safe to say that Haste is a dps increase for all caster classes with a passive regeneration of mana. However do warlocks benefit from haste rating at all?

Lifetap will now scale with haste rating, however it will not scale nearly as well as it does with shadowbolt, ex.


Here is what 113 haste does to the GCD versus shadowbolt.

GCD - 1.5 seconds to 1.399
Shadowbolt - 2.5 seconds to 2.332

As you can see, LT obviously does not scale as well as shadowbolt does. Basically what i'm asking is, does haste even increase dps for locks?

I havent actually cranked out the numbers, just because I fear I will be too inaccurate. So I came here to see if anyone has done research on this sort of thing. The only thing i can logically come up with is spell dmg> haste because if anything, it increases our dps AND our mana regen, where as haste would increase our dps (if at all) and decrease our DPM/mana increase our mana regen (because faster lifetaps) but would need to LT more per minute thus requiring more true tapping time.

The only page i found anything about haste and warlocks was in this thread, and it linked me to Passive Haste studies. and imo this information is outdated with 2.4 being just a month or two away.

Any information looking into this would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ckhand&n=Galik

 

dakalro

Think about it logically. In 2.3 haste increases dps and mana consumption so amount of lifetaps by let's say same %. But this is still a dps increase, on par with +dmg atm.
In 2.4 it will also reduce LT time by a %, with a gross estimation that 0 haste in 60 seconds will be exactly squeezed into a lower amount of time with haste. So even higher dps increase, basicly complete time compression for all spells of all casters (cooldown tied casters like spriests have it a bit different).

You don't have to have same amount of time reduced to make it as good for LT, if you had then it would be not as good but a lot better for LT.
For example, if atm you do some damage in 1 minute, next patch you'd do same damage in 54.5s with 10% haste.

 

Cronjob

I need a bit of advice. I had been running with Robes of Rohnin but yesteday I was able to get the T6 robes and T6 helm. I was under the impression that the rhonin robes were better than T6 robes however when I punch them into the spreadsheet imy DPM and DPS goes down. I thought using the Rhonin robes and the rest T6 was better than full T6? The item value appears better but on the DPS tab when I equpt it the DPS and DPM go down.

Am I overlooking something?

 

dakalro

Difference is minor. Only sensible upgrades over t6 are illidan head, leggings of channeled elements or vashj chest, with erm reverse order from highest to lowest difference.

 

zanaris

I think you missunderstood me, haste will be a dps increase, but at what level? The link i provided stated it would be an increase in dps at around 1400 spell dmg, but that value is sure to change in 2.4 with the GCD change.

However an interesting note that the link claims is that haste is almost 10% (I believe the actual value is 9.4%) more expensive than +dmg in terms of gear.

This is a very confusing subject with very intricate math, I would appreciate an explanation with math, and an explanation to that math. (The link I showed you is pretty well explained, even though confusing.)

I'd like to see something along the lines of that link, again it is
Passive Haste studies.

I realize i'm being picky, but I just want somewhere to start if no one has done anysort of math/testing on this subject.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ckhand&n=Galik