Hozed

ive looked around and figured this is the best place to post this...

basically when it comes to spell haste, i have no clue whats going on.

recently i picked up footpads of madness and the loop of cursed bones out of ZA during our bear runs. ive done all the math and figured out that i will loose 43 dmg, and .10 crit to gain 52 haste, about 2.42 sb cast time. with the haste gear on it would put my dmg at 1310, and crit at 19.16%. is it worth it? ive heard the term 1 haste = 1.2 dmg if thats true then id say its def worth it.

and also, i have quag's eye, and the lock trink form tk.
a passive 37 dmg and 48 dmg. im assuming the proc off quag's eye (320 haste, 20.29% for 6 secs) out weighs the +11 dmg i get from the lock trink? im not sure what the internal CD is on the eye but im guessing it over 1 min.

thanks for the help, Cursd

 

Vazu

SM/Ruin is garbage in BC.

With those stats, figure out between your Warlocks who has what for Healthstone talents in the guild, and spec something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Now you have a debuff role with Malediction and this build has two points leftover for Imp. Drain Life or Healthstone ranks. It's a good start at least. Imp. Howl of Terror isn't "necessary", nor is Fel Concentration really but they're both good pickups for all-around play, without hurting your raid viability. Nightfall is crap for raiding. You can slowly get rid of points in Suppression as your hit gear quality increases, but it's a good filler talent for starter gear.

 

galzohar

There isn't really any reason to take fel concentration, at least not over nightfall and shadow embrace. Same goes for instant howl. This is the PvE thread not PvP shadow embrace is probably by far the #1 reason to bring an affliction warlock to a raid, with imp coming somewhat behind and malediction being just a sidekick, as while increasing other people's DPS you're reducing your own by more or less (depending on gear level and number/classes of shadow users) the same amount you just increased theirs.

As for healthstone, you have better places to spend that talent point, let the destruction warlocks syncronize their healthstones as they have no better place to put those points - 1 of them should have 2/2 and the other 1/2 with you (the affliction warlock) spending that point either in intensity, improved imp or curse of exhaustion.
If you put that point there you just lost a point in one of those talents while the destruction warlock that now needs to have 0/2 improved healthstone has nothing to do with that point, so that would be a waste.

 

hypetech

Quag's eye is 10% chance to proc, no internal cooldown.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Spell Haste Trinket

 

taybul

The way I see it with haste is that the percentage reduction you get from it on casting time is the same percentage increase in DPS. In other words, 1% haste should increase DPS by 1% as well. I base this solely on the haste stat alone and don't consider the trade-off with other stats. In reality though, most haste gear pre-2.4 have just haste and damage, so you'll likely be losing out on more damage and/or crit. Fortunately, 2.4 haste gear will also have crit and some hit on it as well.

As for whether they're worth it, eh...seems like you're running MH/BT so if you go by the 1 haste = 1.2 dmg, then there are better loots for those slots than these ZA items. (spellthread neck piece comes to mind if you're not hit capped).

edit: For my own edification I tried to prove the 1 haste = 1.2 dmg, here's what I did:

Given:
- 600 second fight (10 minutes)
- You can just bolt the entire time
- 0/21/40
- Your shadowbolt hits on average for 2000
- 1% haste (15.77 pts)
- damage/crit are constant, and you don't miss or crit

W/o haste:

600 / 2.5 = 240 bolts * 2000 = 480,000 damage

W/ haste:

600 / (2.5/(1+0.01)) = 242.4 bolts * 2000 = 484,800 damage

---

Taking the haste total damage, the equivalent damage per bolt without haste is (484,800 / 240) 2020, or +20 damage/bolt.

20 / 1.057 (SnF) = +18.92 equivalent damage

18.92 dmg / 15.77 haste = 1.1998 damage/haste, or 1.2 damage = 1 haste

------

Don't forget though that haste only really shines in much longer fights, and also assuming you can stand there casting for long periods of time. If you're just killing trash that shouldn't take more than a minute of combat, someone with, say 2% haste will throw just as many bolts as someone without haste, so start stacking!

 

• frmorrison

If you got Fel Raged, got the debuff during Gorefiend and during Phase 2 on RoS Fel concentration can be a life saver, and it is a great soloing (as a drain tank) and PvP talent.

There really isn't much to get if you are deep 30+ afflicition anyway.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Madlax

It is 1.2 in fact, you need to watch for the run time you pick and not cut numbers - which is the vital part kinda.
600/2.475 = 242.42
*2000 /240 -2000 = 20.20
/1.057 and /15.7 = 1.21

This is a question of viewpoint ye, cause it comes down to the duration of the fight.

I just wrote the following, would be glad if someone can cross-read it for me and then just stick it onto the first page.


Sends a shadowy bolt at the enemy, causing 541 to 603 Shadow damage.
I assumed a 21/40 specc for this scenario and i rounded the SB coefficient down to 100% from 105.71.
Warlock with, an imaginary 100% hit and 30% crit.

A little explaining:
Without gear and mob debuffs the very average Shadow Bolt would hit for (603+541)/2 = 572 damage.
Lets add 428 spelldam to that - leaving every Shadow Bolt at exactly 1000 damage.
In raw theory over 100 casts we would now get 70x1000 + 30x2000 damage = 130.000 damage.

Stats increase:
1% crit - 22.1 rating
69*1000 + 31*2000
131.000 damage
~0.77% DPS increase

1% haste - 15.7 rating
Would give us 101 bolts, which on average would have 1300 damage.
131.300 damage
1% DPS increase

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
131.300/(70+30x2) = 1010
1010 - 1000 = 10
10 damage would give us 1% DPS increase


Lets try that again at 1428 spelldam - where we would have 260.000
1% crit - 22.1 rating
69*2000 + 31*4000
262.000 damage
~0.77% DPS increase

1% haste - 15.7 rating
Would give us 101 bolts, which on average would have 1300 damage.
262.600 damage
1% DPS increase

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
262.600/(70+30x2) = 2020
2020 - 2000 = 20
20 damage would give us 1% DPS increase


Now, as this maths indicates - Crit and Haste always give you a linear DPS increase per point, at each gear level.
Raw damage on the other hand gets more expensive the higher your Shadow Bolt damage gets.

Whats the downside of Haste?
With a 2.5(2.475) seconds cast time Shadow Bolt you would need a roughly 4 minute fight to get that 1% extra damage.
As your haste goes higher, this value goes lower.
If, for example you have 20% haste already, then it would take you 200 seconds of constant casting to do 100 Shadow Bolts.
1% haste will still give you another Shadow Bolt in that time span.


Lets do this with raid stats:
30% crit. 1728 spelldam.
CoS - 10%. Misery - 5%. Shadow Weaving - 10%. Saccrificed Succubus - 15%. 4part T6 - 6%.
2300 * 1.1 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 3562 Default Damage.

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
467.690/(70+30x2) = 3597
3597 - 3562 = 35
35/1.1/1.05/1.1/1.15/1.06 = 22.6 damage
It would require 22.6 damage for 1% DPS increase.

Conclusion:
Haste will grant you the best Statpoint : DPS increase, in fight which are as long as your Shadow Bolts cast time times 100.(That would be 4 minutes to begin with).
15.7 haste rating will always, with above point, grant you 1% DPS increase.

 

taybul

Yeah I rounded to count only "whole" shadow bolts and not partial ones (0.42), though I do see what you mean.

 

Liminality

This is so wrong.... it has a 45 sec internal cooldown. There is a thread in these forums somewhere about what trinkets have hidden cooldowns and what don't. Everyone who has a Quag's eye will tell you it has an internal cooldown.

 

galzohar

If argue getting a talent that provides less dps becuase you need it for survivability might as well go spec felguard or something, you'll have more survivability and more DPS than a half-assed affliction spec. In other words, if you're already going affliction you'd better also provide shadow embrace and do as much dps as you actually can do with that spec, otherwise you might as well spec destruction (unless your gear level is very low). On a side note, nobody tells the destruction warlocks to spec affliction for teron gorefiend or bloodboil so they have fel concentration - they survive fine without gimping their dps to get it, and so will you. If you already have a load of hit rating on your gear without even trying to make suppression a waste then you'd have a point as you still need 15 points in the first 3 affliction tiers to reach the higher ones, but none of the 4th-and-above-tier talents (that you're supposed to take) in affliction are negotiable.

 

• Suggestive

I'm not seeing your point, its quite possible to pick up fel concentration without 'gimping' anything, that's what he was talking about. Between impCoA/Cow, and amplify curse, whichever you decide to take is pretty much a wash either way. In the context he was describing anyway, not that of the person who asked the question. I'd assume if he's facing bloodboil, he doesn't need suppression. Having fel concentration does not impact your ability to pick up shadow embrace then.

 

Kimmee

I searched the thread and didn't see anything about it nor have I ever seen it mentioned before anywhere, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Have any of you ever experimented with sacrificing a Felhunter instead of a Succubus for raiding in a 0/21/40 spec? I had never even considered it before but a friend of mine really likes to do this on trash, and also on Kaz'rogal to combat the mana drain. I have always used it for farming, but tried it out in ZA for the first time recently and found that it virtually eliminates the need to Life Tap ever. Obviously in boss fights where you are moving around frequently and you can just Life Tap on the move, there is no point. But in a fight like Gorefiend, Naj'entus, or Anetheron where you are standing still the whole time and taking AoE burst damage which makes Life Tap potentially dangerous, it almost seems like the DPS gain from a Felhunter would be greater than the 15% from a Succubus (particularly if you aren't lucky enough to have a shadow priest or shaman in your group).

I was just curious if anyone else here has ever sacrificed a Felhunter while raiding and what they think about it.

 

taybul

This really depends on your own tapping habits. Generally you want to tap only when you really need to (ie, < 5% mana), or when you have to move so it doesn't compromise your DPSing. Another alternative which is getting popular is chugging mana pots, which doesn't set off the GCD.

I've tried sac'ing the felhunter for kaz, but his mana drain is faster than the mana regen so I'd end up tapping anyway just so I don't blow up.

 

Savetheday

There's a few fights where I've been saccing a felhunter.

Mother Sharaz: I absolutely Hate lifetapping on this fight. Fatal Attraction and different beams can lead to a huge burst, life tapping in my experience can lead to random deaths.

Kazrogal: I find I usually only need to tap 1-2 times with felhunter whereas without one im tapping alot more then shadowbolting.

I've also been trying it out on Council. There's alot of random damage which can lead to a death and also it's a very long fight, so involves more and more lifetaps. According to my WWS parses the DPS output seemed to be roughly the same, So I'm not sure.

 

Vazu

I can't think of a single fight in MH/BT where a destro Warlock should sac a Felhunter. There's no such thing as an encounter with no room to Lifetap. Obviously you need to be more careful at times, but you're losing out on a tremendous amount of DPS potential over a very average amount of mana regen. This is a situation where I can honestly say your healers are probably doing a poor job managing raid healing. Especially if you're so afraid of dying that you sac a pet for mana regen as opposed to using Lifetap and getting a HOT. Unless you pull aggro, or you're already very low on HP from an Envenom or some AE affect, nothing should be 1-shotting you. Never give up saccing a a Succubus.

Also, in response to the person above who wrote that you should wait to Lifetap until you're almost OOM. That's a horrible idea. Lifetap when you need to move, or the encounter has downtime. Use Lifetap as a way for your tank to build some threat so you aren't Soulshattering so early. I'll DPS to 110% threat frequently, and LT 2-3 times. That's usually enough time to drop me back below 100%. You wanna look for opportunities where you shouldn't be DPSing to Lifetap. The only time you should wait to Lifetap until you're basically OOM is on straight up burn fights like Teron Gorefiend or Rage Winterchill. Even then, on Rage you can Lifetap when (if) he throws his AE on top of you. Move, LT until you're out of it, resume DPS. Etc etc.

 

Kalle

1% haste actually requires 10*82/52 ~= 15.77 haste rating (according to WoWWiki).

Unfortunetly that is not the way haste reduces your cast time. The hasted cast time is 2.5 / (1+haste) for SB. This does not cause a huge change to your ratio, I get +20 equivalent damage, too (before SnF, without rounding). But it is the cause of the ratio getting worse the more haste rating you stack. Using 10% haste as base, I get +18.18 equivalent damage. At 20% haste it's +16.67 dmg.

If you look at the percental increase in damage, crit also gets worse the more crit you have. Just as hit gets worse the more hit you have and damage the more damage you have.

 

rochan

Knowing when to lifetap is what separates a good warlock from a great warlock. Obviously the method you want to use differs from fight to fight. You just have to think about it logically. The more experience you have at the fights the better decisions you'll make.

Also I can understand saccing a FH on Sharraz. It would be less DPS, but if you find yourself dying a lot then it would definately increase your survivability.

 

Cronjob

You dont have conlfag in your current spec. But I agree in your use of it although I'd go for shadowburn instead of conflag on a dying mob. Also not sure what having full mana or "dont want to lifetap" has to do with using conflag. From a DPS loss I was talking about on a standard boss fight, not trash or soloing.

Conflag is not part of the normal spell rotation for a Destro raiding lock. Spamming bolts > Immo + Conflag

 

Bandoer

You get diminishing returns on haste and crit just like damage. Going from 0 to 1% haste is a bigger dps increase than going from 10 to 11% haste. Same with crit. You made an example of comparing 428 dmg and 1428 dmg but kept haste and crit constant, which doesn't prove your conclusion.

What you do want somewhat is a balance of stats. There are inflection points where the best Next Stat for dps changes depending on your gear level.

 

taybul

Thanks, fixed my post.

 

Spoonman

In addition, you should be lifetapping so that when you trinket/get a bloodlust, you have enough mana to chain cast for the entire duration of the buffs.

 

Climaxe

Hello,

I have a question that may or may not be easy to answer because most dps spreadsheets are based on only one or 2 stats... not all of them.

However, my question is with 23% crit..1200 damage and max hit as a destro lock, would it be worth it to sacrifice 2 % crit for 50 haste. Basically... i recently picked up 2 haste items from ZA.. the cape and the boots. If i replace both of these items with my current gear, (boots of blasting/morose neck.. i know, had some bad luck with loot) will the haste increase my overall dps, even though im losing crit. I am personally not too familiar with how to make a spreadsheet to test this... so i thought i would ask here.

What is the base crit you want to reach befor haste will outscale crit?

This probably seems somewhat vague and im sure alot of variables dictate the outcome... but any info on the topic is appreciated.

Thanks.

 

Arnath

Have you looked at the warlock spreadsheet? It will let you plug stuff like this in and get a quantitative answer.

 

Kimmee

My concern was less about the survivability aspect (I don't die on boss fights, so its not a huge issue) and more about the actual DPS loss/gain. Saccing succubus is a 15% damage increase. Saccing felhunter eliminates the need to Life Tap. So therefore if you are Life Tapping 15% of the time or more (in fights where that time would have been spent DPSing) the felhunter would be more beneficial, correct? So on those nights when we only have 1 shadow priest show up and I'm left without one, I feel like I have to Life Tap a ton even when using mana pots. But is it 15% or more?? One Life Tap gives enough mana back for something like 4.5 shadow bolts. I know it sounds like a crazy idea, but it is food for thought at least. I might try it out on a couple bosses this week and see where my DPS stacks up against the other locks.

 

rochan

No need to do that. The most recent spreadsheet by Leulier will model this. It is a huge dps drop. In fact, even if saccing a felhunter gave you infinite mana, saccing a succubus would still give more dps.