PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 84

Audious · 03/27/08, 4:09 PM

I'm debating on whether or not I want to craft [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].

I'm currently using [Icon of the Silver Crescent] & [Quagmirran's Eye] as my main trinkets.
I have [The Lightning Capacitor] sitting around collecting dust as well.

The other badge trinket's just don't seem to be worth the trade off, though I was considering picking up [Battlemaster's Alacrity].

I'm still hoping I could pick up [Hex Shrunken Head] at some point. This, [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] looks pretty neat as well.

Thoughts?

Armory Link

cynics · 03/27/08, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by LockApologist

@cynics:

1. spreadsheet

2. spreadsheet and generally, if you already have an epic gem, it is not worth replacing, unless you have a glut of pyrestones/want to farm all the badges. the difference between 5 crit and 5 haste is minuscule.

3. I'm not sure what you would replace any of those with that was not T6 (minus getting Vashj robe or shoulders from Gurtogg/Aneth). Outside T6, your first upgrade should be the neck and wand, as both of those are not that great.

4. If you run more spriests than fire mages, it's probably better to stay shadow. But, if you run light on locks/spriest and heavy on mages (like my guild), fire is appealing.

i have used the spreadsheet, but once i change my gear the dps/ stats don't change not sure what i was doing wrong ill try again.

The gems in my chest and shoulders are Blue quality so that means it would be better to go from blue hit/dmg to Epic haste/dmg.

The next item i will upgrade is neck off RoS or the offhand for Chill, we rarely do TK so that wand is kinda difficult get.

Thanks for the info

EDIT: i went ahead and tried to get teh chart to work, but when i change to my current gear the values on the DPS tab never change. is there something im doing wrong? (im using excel 2003 and i have enabled macros, i also have allowed circle calculations)

EDIT2: My copy was corrupted got it working thanks for the help.

clavarnway · 03/27/08, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Audious

I'm debating on whether or not I want to craft [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].

I'm currently using [Icon of the Silver Crescent] & [Quagmirran's Eye] as my main trinkets.
I have [The Lightning Capacitor] sitting around collecting dust as well.

The other badge trinket's just don't seem to be worth the trade off, though I was considering picking up [Battlemaster's Alacrity].

I'm still hoping I could pick up [Hex Shrunken Head] at some point. This, [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] looks pretty neat as well.

Thoughts?

Armory Link

From what I know Icon is valued at about 67 +damage. The 40% more mana thing is worth 40mp/5 assuming you chain-pot Super's. So open spreadsheet and figure out how how much +dmg 40mp5 is worth and see if it's worth more than 4 damage.

This is assuming Icon is valued at 67 damage.

I'm fairly certain the alchemist trinket is also better than Eye, since as far as I know Icon is universally agreed for Warlocks to be better than Eye already.

There is also something to be said about trinkets with equip effects instead of use. Less things to worry about, the better.

galzohar · 03/27/08, 6:05 PM

Keep in mind excel spreadsheets are pretty easy to "destroy" (by overwriting the box that calculates something with a constant number...). Try re-downloading the spreadsheet and if it still has problems go post on the appropriate thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t10065-a...s_spreadsheet/

So how do I tell if I should be fire or shadow???

The spreadsheet allows you to do that! If you didn't manage, you weren't trying hard enough.

The spreadsheet has a "raid ISB" tab at the bottom. Click on it. There you can enter the number of shadow users, their classes and % SB cast (or MB frequency for SPs - SWD (at least last version I downloaded, may had been changed by now) is assuemd to be used on cooldown). Keep in mind you will probably have 1 warlock affliction in your raid if your guild cares for progress so make sure to get the proper SB cast% for him (which can be easily done by the spreadsheet by modifying your own rotation and seeing the SB cast%). Enter the appropriate DPS (stand and shoot DPS, not WWS/damagemeters/SWS/etc DPS - consult shadowpriest.com or some other simulator for DPS of your shaodow priests). Make sure when entering the DPS of other classes to enter the fully buffed/debuffed DPS but NOT including ISB DPS! (important if you're using lieuler's spreadsheet to get the warlock's DPS (in which case put ISB to custom and 0%) or some shadowpriest simulator that takes ISB into account (again try make it calculate with 0% ISB uptime)).
Note that if you enter their DPS after ISB the results won't be skewed *too much* but you'll favor shadow by a little bit more than you should.

Go back to the main tab, spec yourself destruction and enter your fully buffed stats to get your own DPS. Choose ISB model to "Raid ISB". Write down your DPS (on paper or in a different cell) and go to the ISB tab. Look at the ISB uptime and multiply it by 1/5 of the total shadow DPS in your raid (not including yourself - as your own ISB DPS is already counted). Add that DPS to the personal DPS you got (no, that's not really how much DPS you bring to the raid, but the ISB DPS that doesn't actually belong to you will get reduced anyway in a second).

Spec yourself fire destruction and repeat the process. Still add to your personal DPS the ISB DPS! (or reduce it from the shadow DPS result...). Write down those numbers.

Grats! Now you see how much DPS you will gain/lose by swapping to fire and back (by deducting the 1st number you calculated from the 2nd one - negative would be DPS decrease to go fire destro and positive would be an increase for fire destro. You probably want to try it for more than 1 possible raid makeup, especially if your guild's makeups vary and especially if you got close results for fire and shadow.

Trickykid · 03/27/08, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

There is also something to be said about trinkets with equip effects instead of use. Less things to worry about, the better.

Err, I disagree. "Use" effects can be stacked on top of DPS phases or other group/raid/proc buffs to magnify their value. The nature of passive effects means you "waste" them on any period of time where you are doing less or no damage.

• frmorrison · 03/27/08, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by Nas

Has anyone done the maths of the [Icon of the Silver Crescent] vs [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] for an Affliction Warlock? And does the proc on the trinket consume ISB at all?

Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.

galzohar · 03/27/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

Err, I disagree. "Use" effects can be stacked on top of DPS phases or other group/raid/proc buffs to magnify their value. The nature of passive effects means you "waste" them on any period of time where you are doing less or no damage.

While this effect has a rather small effect on the effectiveness of "use" trinkets, it's definitely a much more valid argument than "less to worry about". Unless you're just horrible at this game, a "use" trinket at a worst-case scenario (meaning you absolutely can't predict when it'll be good so just mashing it whenever it's up) will deal it's average damage (damage*duration/cooldown). At any realistic scenario it'll deal more than that (although most of the time only slightly more) since you're not an idiot and know the fight at least just a little bit and know when to use it to make sure to use it with bloodlust/boss vulnerability/not when needing to lifetap/not when you know you're likely to move and waste it.

While if you can't predict when it'll be good to use it can screw you over, it's just as likely to get lucky on you and give you good damage. On average, though, if you have any way to predice the "bad time to use" periods even by the slightest, you'll gain slightly more than its average damage.

Saying it's one less thing to worry about means you need some motivation and focus help in your raiding more than you need dps anyway, in which case I wonder how you ever stepped out of the void zones in Arcatraz while getting your karazan key.

Pidge · 03/28/08, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Darkwand3r3r

@Dydoe.

Yes you have to maintain a high lvl of hit rating at almost any cost.

I have to disagree with that statement. Hit is a valuable DPS stat, but you don't HAVE to have it. It's simply the cheapest stat to increase DPS with.

Touf · 03/28/08, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Pidge

I have to disagree with that statement. Hit is a valuable DPS stat, but you don't HAVE to have it. It's simply the cheapest stat to increase DPS with.

Soulshatter resists really, really suck.

TangoDigital · 03/28/08, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.

I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion, just out of interest.

I'm not a pro at maths so I won't claim this is correct but:

If we assume a PPM of 7 for the trinket, the additional spelldmg of the proc effect should be (380*7)/60=44.3.
This would clock the trinket in at +88 dmg on averange, placing it right beside the Darkmoon Card... for a DoT-lock at least.

Can anyone confirm this or am I totally off?

Soulshatter resists really, really suck.

I'll second that. IMO hit really is the primary stat you should go for until it's capped. Not only because of the DPS-value but also because of the massive trouble you can get yourself into when your spells are resisted. Soulshatter being the obvious... but you also lose quite a bit more DPS when that DoT is resisted just before you need to start moving around. You'll not only lose a GCD per se, but also the entire DPS-time lost until you can reapply. As said if that UA gets resisted and you need to move around for 5 seconds, that's 5 seconde of UA DPS lost to the lack of hit.
So yeah... it is that important.

Kobal · 03/28/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

I'll second that. IMO hit really is the primary stat you should go for until it's capped. Not only because of the DPS-value but also because of the massive trouble you can get yourself into when your spells are resisted. Soulshatter being the obvious... but you also lose quite a bit more DPS when that DoT is resisted just before you need to start moving around. You'll not only lose a GCD per se, but also the entire DPS-time lost until you can reapply. As said if that UA gets resisted and you need to move around for 5 seconds, that's 5 seconde of UA DPS lost to the lack of hit.
So yeah... it is that important.

While this statement in itself is correct, it should be noted that there are ways to circumvent these issues without sacrificing too many other DPS-Stats for hitrating.

The problem with soulshatter resists can at least be mitigated by having an alternative weapon/ranged set that focusses solely on hitrating, and that you swap in right before the soulshatter.

An affliction warlock needs a full 6% hit for his DoTs to be capped (5% if you regularly have a draenei in your group). The suppression talent is incerdibly helpful here, as it has been noted repeatedly before that there are no really essential alternatives where to put these points.

TangoDigital · 03/28/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kobal

While this statement in itself is correct, it should be noted that there are ways to circumvent these issues without sacrificing too many other DPS-Stats for hitrating.

The problem with soulshatter resists can at least be mitigated by having an alternative weapon/ranged set that focusses solely on hitrating, and that you swap in right before the soulshatter.

I believe that swapping weapons out while the Boss turns around to chop your head off can get you killed. Doing the swap "in anticipation" of overaggro will cost you at least some more DPS than a simple soulshatter cast would.

An affliction warlock needs a full 6% hit for his DoTs to be capped (5% if you regularly have a draenei in your group). The suppression talent is incerdibly helpful here, as it has been noted repeatedly before that there are no really essential alternatives where to put these points.

Suppression doesn't hitcap shadowbolt, which in itself makes for more than 40% of your damage (not factoring ISB). Also, as you hitcap via gear you can take those 5 points and apply them to some really useful talents (fel concentration, malediction,...).

This is all sorta moot anyway since a lot of our gear comes with decent hit if you make the right choices. However, if left with the choice between spelldmg/crit/haste gems versus hit I'll always prefer hit unless I'm >=202.

evilhacker · 03/28/08, 11:12 AM

My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.

Cronjob · 03/28/08, 11:19 AM

Well at first I thought fire was the new hotness and rolling around doing world pvp it kinda is. I tested the last two nights on Brutallus and shadow wins every time. We had mostly mages on the first night and the second night we had a better mix with two shadow priest but no matter what shadow was winning out.

We had three locks two destro one affliction and it didnt matter whether both the destros went fire or if only one, shadow was winning. The spell rotation we each were using was immo then spam incin.

Anyone else testing out fire?

rochan · 03/28/08, 11:41 AM

I heard the spreadsheet tested out fire.

And evilhacker I'm not gonna sugar-coat it: what you wrote there is pretty stupid and I really hope no one takes your advice. You are just shooting yourself in the foot if you dont hit cap while destro. Hit rating is so strong, overpowered even, because you need much less rating for 1% hit than 1% crit, and spells use a 2 roll system, i.e. you have to hit in order to crit.

Cronjob · 03/28/08, 12:06 PM

Yeah Rochan the spreadsheet indicates fire should win out but thats not what we saw lastnight on Brut. We were even a lock short which would boost our DPS even more as shadow because ISB would be up more. But even with just me running shadow while the other destro lock did fire, I would win out.

Was hoping others were testing this out. I even went as far as removing soulfrost in favor of pure +40 spell damage on my weapon.

Mearis · 03/28/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by evilhacker

My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.

My problem with this post is that you are wrong.

Nurru · 03/28/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by evilhacker

My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.

Everything about this post is wrong. Please stop.

Necrostar · 03/28/08, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by evilhacker

My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.

HIT > FAILED logic

Kobal · 03/28/08, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

I believe that swapping weapons out while the Boss turns around to chop your head off can get you killed. Doing the swap "in anticipation" of overaggro will cost you at least some more DPS than a simple soulshatter cast would.

Waiting with Soulshatter until you actually do pull agrro is very suicidal in my book. Not only that some bossses need to be positioned very precisely, there is just so much that can go unnecessarily wrong with this practice.

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

Suppression doesn't hitcap shadowbolt, which in itself makes for more than 40% of your damage (not factoring ISB).

I never said hitrating was worthless, only worth less (sorry for the pun). I am sure you agree that if hitrating only affects 40% of your damage, it should be worth only 40% of what it would be worth if it would affect 100% of your damage, don't you?

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

Also, as you hitcap via gear you can take those 5 points and apply them to some really useful talents (fel concentration, malediction,...).

Amongst the first three tiers (= 15 points) of the affliction tree, there are only 9 points that are mandatory for an affliction warlock (in my humble opinion).
5/5 Improved Corruption
2/2 Improved Lifetap
2/2 Improved Drain Soul

The remaining talents are nice little gimmicks, but in no way necessary for a raiding warlock. People call these "filler". So putting 5 of those 6 points into suppression will not cost you any useful talent.

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

However, if left with the choice between spelldmg/crit/haste gems versus hit I'll always prefer hit unless I'm >=202.

This is personal preference then. Should I ever have to spec affliction myself, I would follow the advice of my spreadsheet and value hitrating about equal to spelldamage.

rochan · 03/28/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cronjob

Yeah Rochan the spreadsheet indicates fire should win out but thats not what we saw lastnight on Brut. We were even a lock short which would boost our DPS even more as shadow because ISB would be up more. But even with just me running shadow while the other destro lock did fire, I would win out.

Was hoping others were testing this out. I even went as far as removing soulfrost in favor of pure +40 spell damage on my weapon.

Yeah the spreadsheet may say fire does more damage but in practice you'll get fucked over by Immolates wearing off/casting the wrong spell/mages forgetting about scorch/mistiming a lifetap/immolate etc. With shorter spells (immolate/IC), lag will have more of an effect. You may think you Quartz it perfectly, but there's always a little delay.

There are just a lot more things that can go wrong with fire vs pure spamming one button (shadowbolt) playstyle. With practice & perfect play the specs will probably be equal, but why go through all the extra hassle, and you don't even buff the other shadow users.

Thebeefe · 03/28/08, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.

Can you elaborate on this?

witchedwiz · 03/28/08, 1:53 PM

about timbal's proc... do those mini shadow bolt consume ImpSB? or are they affected by it?
Currently our raid is most likely 1-2 spriest, 3 (few times 2, but no lower then 2.. oftern it's rather 4 destro lock :P.. so 3 as a midline value) destru lock, 1 affli lock..
If timbal's proc consumes ISB, then it's pretty much worthless since the destru lock would have to compensate for spriest (no isb refresh)+ afflilock (low ISB refresh) + timbal's x3 (no ISB refresh), thus making it pretty useless since it would make pretty much hellish to mantain ISB up..
any help? :P (haven't dropped it so far, so i can't test firsthand..)

clavarnway · 03/28/08, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by witchedwiz

about timbal's proc... do those mini shadow bolt consume ImpSB? or are they affected by it?
Currently our raid is most likely 1-2 spriest, 3 (few times 2, but no lower then 2.. oftern it's rather 4 destro lock :P.. so 3 as a midline value) destru lock, 1 affli lock..
If timbal's proc consumes ISB, then it's pretty much worthless since the destru lock would have to compensate for spriest (no isb refresh)+ afflilock (low ISB refresh) + timbal's x3 (no ISB refresh), thus making it pretty useless since it would make pretty much hellish to mantain ISB up..
any help? :P (haven't dropped it so far, so i can't test firsthand..)

This was posted on the same page...scroll up.

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.

witchedwiz · 03/28/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

This was posted on the same page...scroll up.

didn't notice it, my bad :/
thanks for answering tough.