Arelenda

This is absolutely right, I'd pick 1% crit over 1% hit too, for 0/21/40

Except rating doesn't work like that.

12.6 hit rating = 1% hit
22.1 crit rating = 1% crit

You need almost twice rating to obtain the "same" effect. (well, not same, but comparable)

Obtaining hit chance isn't more effective, but obtaining hit rating is.

 

galzohar

Yes 1% hit is already not far off from 1% crit, and costs a lot less in itemization (requires a lot less rating), resulting in hit being much better for destruction warlocks to the point where it's absolutely silly to not cap it with any realistic gear setup (at least since the introduction of hit gems quite a long time ago). If you don't feel the difference of having more hit, you'll even more not feel the difference of having more spell damage or crit. The average DPS is there, and while it has variance, it doesn't matter when it comes to choosing the stats, as the randomness can help you just as much as it can hurt you.

Keep in mind that a few extra %s to your DPS will not be incredibly noticeable, but there's no reason not to deal those few % extra DPS if you're capable of doing so. At the end how well you play will have a much more significant effect.

I wouldn't bring "difficult to play" as an argument against fire. Since I don't think there's something wrong with the spreadsheet, if it tells you fire should be better than the fire warlocks simply needs to play better, not spec to something easier. Of course for some people WoW is just too hard of a game, tell them to go play checkers or something

 

Kimmee

I'm assuming the spreadsheet is going to calculate Immolate uptime as 100% (ideal), where in practice it won't always line up with your Incinerate casts perfectly to allow you to keep it up 100% of the time. Sometimes it will be down for 1 second or so while you finish out an Incinerate cast and there isn't anything anyone can do about that really (though arguably careful timing of Life Taps can help reduce these occurrences). So that could account for differences between spreadsheet predictions and actual outcomes. Also as previously mentioned, mages being bad and not keeping scorch up will make a difference as well.

 

cynics

Yes, this is a flame

You are a terribad if you are picking crit over hit, haste, or dmg, as a destro lock raiding SSC/TK/MH/BT/SW.

Edit: in addition to this hit is a cheaper stat to get 1% so that means you are allocating those points elsewhere.

 

Vlar

Why would you add the ISB DPS to the Fire spec?

This is DPS you are not providing to the raid. Shouldn't you subtract that amount from the Fire DPS because this is DPS that you are taking away from the raid by specc'ing fire?

 

galzohar

Change in DPS = Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire - fire spec personal DPS

Wether you calculate

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (raid ISB DPS as fire + fire spec personal DPS)
or calculate
(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS

You would get the same results. That's why I said add the rest-of-raid ISB DPS to the fire spec's DPS as you also added that DPS to the shadow spec while that DPS would've been done even if you weren't specced shadow.


1% crit is generally > 1% hit (by a little). There's nothing stupid by taking 1% crit over 1% hit. However 1 crit rating is far inferior to 1 hit rating if you're under the hit cap due to the rating system, which is why hit rating is incredibly powerful - so much that you should generally be capped with any gearset that maximizes destruction DPS (affliction is not the same as it gains slightly more dps from 1 spell damage than 1 hit rating, although due to how little it gains from crit you will end up choosing dmg/hit item and end up close to the hit cap anyway and at a certain gear level be hit capped without even trying - but affliction has no reason to purposely cap hit as it's not as incredibly powerful as it is for destruction). Don't flame about things you don't know.

 

Tornwings

justa quick question, but can anyone link me the spreadsheet?

 

Vlar

Ok, but you are still calculating it incorrectly.

it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (fire spec personal DPS - (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire))

because not only are you changing your personal dps, you are also reducing the raid ISB DPS by the lack of your ISBs. You cannot ADD ISB dps to fire, because fire shows no gain and does not give any benefit to raid ISB DPS.

 

rakeling

i apologize if this was already covered, but is CoR a good idea on Gruul? do any of his special abilities put him in the same category as bosses who cleave and mortal strike? thanks

 

Morwen

I'm not sure what to make of that, but a sanity check for a calculation of a difference is that there's an even number of terms in the expression.

 

galzohar

Re-ordering your formula gives:

Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire

As you can see your formula is incorrect due to counting raid ISB DPS as shadow twice.

The correct formula for DPS difference from changing from fire to shadow would be:
Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire
(so no 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow)
The logic behind it is that you look at the DPS difference which means you don't count raid ISB DPS that would've happen without you towards the shadow spec. Another way to look at it is:
Shadow spec personal DPS + (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS
(brackets not needed, just for clarification)

All the (correct) formulas I posted are the exact same thing only with different ordering of elements hoping people understand at least one of them and realize it's equivalent to all the others.

 

• Suggestive

Its probably the lack of brackets throwing people off. I had to stare at that for a minute to get it.

 

Vlar

I admit I was incorrect, it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire]) - (fire spec personal DPS - [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire])

Edit: Looking at my own, I believe I see where I was wrong, since you can you could reorder this as

Shadow DPS + Shadow ISB - Fire DPS - Fire ISB

Edit 2: Cutting it down to look less like an ass

 

LockApologist

That's what the 'Dot Gap' field is for. I have mine set for 2 seconds, as I almost always squeeze in 7 Incinerates (results in last leaving my hands as Immo drops [still gets dmg buff, as dmg is calculated when spell fires rather than hits], giving ~1.4 seconds to reapply Immo). Additionally, we currently raid with 2 fire locks, and 3-4 mages, thus scorch and Immo have damn near 100% uptime, even if my personal Immo is 95% or whatever.

 

LockApologist

This is still wrong.

Combining terms, your formula gives:

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2x [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire] - fire spec personal DPS

you've just inflated the difference between the two specs by a factor of 2.

Galozhar's formula is correct. The raid will still have ISB dps with or without you. So, you have to factor the raid ISB dps w/o you from the raid ISB dps with you (i.e. find your contribution to ISB uptime, and thus raid ISB dps).

 

galzohar

Yeah the spreadsheet far from assumes 100% DoT uptime. Set the dot-gap time to be whatever you think is reasonable. So that's definitely not a place where "theorycraft fails the reality test".

The exact DoT-gap will depend on your haste but it should generally be quite lower than 2s, making the spreadsheet's 2s as an overestimation meaning the spreadsheet actually declares *lower* DPS than you should expect if you play properly.

 

Morwen

The casting cycle is definitely something to be considered, which the spreadsheet doesn't model. You're in the position of having almost exactly the right amount of haste (about 100 rating after accounting for casting lag) to get off the 7th incinerate in the cycle. For anyone who is the sole immolate provider in the raid, having less haste will nearly always put them in an awkward position after the 6th incinerate.

 

LockApologist

Very true. I had been considering this recently when I was looking at how the cast cycle lined up for using the OOM time LT option. It gives a LT time of something like 24.78 seconds. Well, clearly that doesn't fit very well into any rotation with Immo/Incinerate, which are rigid around the 15 second Immo uptime.

But, regardless if you only go to 6, you are left with the option of:

a) Immo, Incinx6, LT
b) Immo, Incinx6, Incin w/o Immo
c) Immo, Incinx6, conflag/clip Immo

if you choose a), any haste you have is pretty much wasted, as you are in the same cast timeline as someone who has no haste.

Personally, I typically alternate a), b), with occasional double LT.

 

galzohar

With 5% haste on gear you have exactly 7 incinerates per immolate. In reality you'll need a little more haste than that due to losing a few fractions of a second every cast even with the new casting system.

With 0% haste on gear 6Xincinerate+(optional tap)+immo would work exactly right, with immo landing a few fractions of a second (due to lost time between casts) after it wears off if you don't life tap, and 1.5s after if you do, so the average DoT gap is 1.5*(average # of lifetaps / number of immolates) which is always lower than 1.5s.

With any more haste you have to lifetap every rotation which could, in most (but not all) group setups/fight lengths, make you have more mana than you need, which is the only way you would deal less DPS than expected.

If you have your haste higher enough than 5% to reliably get 7 incinerates between immolates you no longer have to lifetap to make the rotation work, and your DoT-gap will go up to about 1.5*(1 + average # of lifetaps / number of immolates) which is between 1.5 and 3 seconds. This number goes down a little as haste increases (even with 5% haste it would be slightly lower since GCDs are shortened by haste as well but this is close enough to get the idea through).

As long as your rotation is working (no incinerates without immolate and no leftover mana at the end of the fight) and know what DoT-gap to enter to the spreadsheet, and as long as you play properly, I don't see how you should get less DPS than theorycrafted.

 

Vlar

Your right. I need to stop responding right as I am going somewhere, I don't think about the posts as much as I should

 

Arelenda

Please don't flame. In addition, you're wrong.

Hit rating is better _because_ it is a cheaper stat, not in addition to it.

Let's keep this thread constructive and friendly, shall we?

 

cynics

i am not wrong!

if we are talking about the best overall % for any of the following stats (hit, crit, haste, dmg) then until you are hit capped, hit is by far the best stat for increasing DPS. Also with how current itemization points are allocated there isn't a item with enough crit to make up for hit when you aren't hit capped.

Choosing 1% crit over 1% hit when you are not hit capped is wrong. if we go into that a bit further there might be a point at which it would be a good idea to get a crit item over a hit item (when you aren't hit capped) but there are very few if any items with those kind of points allocated like that.

"Hit rating is better _because_ it is a cheaper stat, not in addition to it."

What are you talking about reread my post. i said that hit is allocated better? let me clarify read below.

we good now?

i agree that flaming is lame but his post was just ignorant, but i shouldn't have got all emo, i a noob aswell; thanks calling me out i did deserve it.

 

Thebeefe

Anyone able to elaborate on how the Mgt Heroic trinket is better than the Icon?

 

galzohar

You're still wrong. While 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating, 1% hit is NOT better than 1% crit. They're close with 1% crit being a bit better, making your "taking 1% crit over 1% hit when not hit capped is very bad" comment completely wrong. You're right that hit is cheaper though - that's the only reason 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating. But 1% crit is a little better than 1% hit.

This is all regarding if you're under the hit cap, obviously, as hit becomes much less useful once you're capped (practically as good as the spell damage you could gain by swapping out hit elsewhere).

 

rochan

You are all wrong.

The relationship of 1% hit vs 1% crit varies with levels of gear. As you gain more crit, 1% hit becomes more valuable and passes 1% crit.

At SWP gear levels, losing 1% hit will hurt your DPS more than losing 1% crit, thus, 1% hit > 1% crit.