cynics

For your spec it is hands down better then Quagmire's Eye it has 10% proc rate with a 30% crit rate the internal cooldown is 15 seconds DPS is ~25. In addition to this i think it gets affected by debuffs.

As far as if it is better then the Icon yes it is the icon is ~15 dps on use. There was a post on the official forums with a lot more detailed information than what i'm giving you.

You need to read my posts better i SAID until you get hit capped 1% hit is always better than 1% crit.

Getting to the hit cap for raiding is the best way to increase your DPS hands down. Also if you are smart you would swap out gear for trash as you don't need 16% hit.

You are right that if you are looking at the allocation of points it takes to get 1% crit vs 1% hit then yes crit is worth more in terns of an item budget but items with % were taken out before Naxx in replace of +points, so why are we talking in percentages.

 

Arnath

Timbal's Focusing Crystal (copied from a post on Wowhead):
This calculation ignores the fact that it can be resisted, but the trinket benefits from your +hit (not Suppression though) so multiply his damage value by whatever your chance to hit is. Regardless, it's worth 70+ damage and the Icon is only worth 67.
EDIT: An important consequence of the fact that it benefits from shadow damage buffs is that it's probably only better than the Icon in a raid situation (where you'll have all of CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, etc. up on the target).

In regards to all the other people arguing that 1% hit is > 1% crit, this continues to not be true no matter how many times you say it. Assuming you're not at the hit cap, hit rating is better than crit rating point for point. However, 1% of crit is better than 1% of hit regardless of gear level (again, assuming you're not hit capped). Look at the spreadsheet and plug in numbers if you don't believe this.

 

Edhrin

Omg it's the second time I edit this post and it comes too late since someone posted it before me :p

Sorry about that.

 

• frmorrison

The "procs" from trinket such as Timbal's and lightning capacitor and the Exalted SSC necklace while being a Scryers both use your spell hit and spell crit, so that is something else to take into account when looking at these items.


It is true 1% to crit is better than 1% to hit, however the large difference in rating will alway make 1 spell hit > 1 spell crit (until 202 hit rating).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

cynics

i am not sure what you are doing on the spreadsheet but see below.
1% hit = 13 hit rating
1% crit = 22 crit rating

DPS wise 1% hit is > 1% crit. (Edit: until you are hit capped) if you need me to save my sheet for you so u can see spec and gear i can do that, but im in mid T6 gear.

http://www.societymadehim.com/stuff/wrong.JPG

 

• frmorrison

Nice attempt, but 1 hit is 12.61 and 1 crit is 22.08 if you want to be exact, which is why your "wrong" SS is wrong .

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Arelenda

I suggest reading the compendium before posting.

I also suggest doing research before posting, to everyone, in general. This back and forth arguing, unbacked by sheets and proof, is getting us nowhere.

As for the hit vs crit (we're still talking 0/21/40 here):

example given: 90% hit chance (absurdly low). bolts hit for 2000 on average.

Since a crit is double damage and then some because of ISB, you can estimate crits as anywhere between 200-300% damage (since it includes dots). I'll use 220% per crit, or 4400 (2400 bonus damage per crit)

1% hit will make one of 100 bolts hit (gain over 10k bolts: 200k damage)
1% crit will make one the bolts that hit, crit (gain over 10k bolts: 9k hits, so 90 extra crits, 90x2400=216k damage)

This is not counting Soul Shatter, which is a good argument for maxing hit, but we were arguing for raw dps.

That is with 90% hit which is less than 100 hit rating, an absurdly low amount. I don't see how haste, crit or +damage would reasonably influence the outcome. Stack more hit and you'll see even more damage from increasing crit. The break even point is somewhere at 30-40 hit rating (assuming 220% crits).

If you want a more detailed overview, feel free to use the spreadsheet, you'll reach the same conclusion. If I'm wrong, I'll accept that, but I'll need to see proof.


To the person asking about Gruul: CoR is a must. Especially during the earlier phases when Gruul hits like a sissy, tanks are rage starved. If you like, you can remove it near the end, if tanks are getting pummeled bad. With the gear currently available, it's hardly an issue.

 

galzohar

1% hit gives slightly more than 1% personal DPS and 1% crit gives slightly less than 1% DPS but also gives ISB uptime. At any realistic gear level and raid setup the ISB uptime would more than make up for it if you look at the spreadsheet. While gear levels and raid setups where 1% hit could beat 1% crit those simply don't really happen in the real game.

Your speradsheet doesn't seem to take into account raid ISB DPS and already shows hit very close to crit. Adding raid ISB DPS would be enough to push crit a little over hit when you comapre 1% of each, which is what I've been saying for the last couple pages.


CoR on gruul at the start is always a good thing. The damage increase from CoR gets multiplied with the grows so sooner or later you should replace it with a different curse. The better geared your raid is the longer you can keep it up, but with every raid it should be up for some portion of the fight.

 

Vlar

Um, wasn't the link he posted screen shots of the comparison using the spreadsheet?

But yes, thanks to the new badge gear, it is much easier to get away with tossing CoR on Gruul. Prior to that it was only really advisable for one cast. (while you were still learning the fight and didn't have much gear)

 

Goedel

Arelenda, what you left out is that, just as the value of crit increases with hit and damage, the value of hit also increases with crit (and everything else). Continuing with your example numbers (starting with a 90% hit chance, 220% damage per crit, bolts hitting for 2000 on *non-crit* average), let's also assume a starting crit chance of 30%.

1% hit then, as you say, adds an average of 1 hit per 100 bolts, but, the part you omitted, that 1 hit has a 30% chance of being a crit. So, from adding 1% hit, the gain over 10k bolts (100 more hits) is not 200k damage (100 regular hits) but 272k damage (70 regular hits, 30 crits).

Now, it may still be that the raid dps gain from Improved Shadow Bolt achieved by increasing the % of hits that crit outweighs this, as galzohar says, but let's be clear about how much it needs to outweigh.

 

Arelenda

Good point, I stand corrected.

Giving 25% crit chance (30% crit with 7% hit is rather odd as gear choice) and a bit higher ISB factor shows them as equal.

The spreadsheet screenshot didn't load for me, so I didn't read that part. I think the main premise still holds: the major difference is rating values. The difference shown between crit and hit is way less than the almost double price in ratings.

 

Vlar

Breakdown of the screenshot:

The first thing was his base stats:

dmg: 1318
shadow: 237
fire: 80
hit: 139
crit: 210

dps: 1690

second part was adding 13 hit rating

dps: 1709

third part was adding 22 crit rating:

dps: 1707

so he gained 2 dps from adding 1% hit instead of 1% crit.

 

galzohar

But lost quite a bit more than 2 DPS by losing ISB uptime for the raid.

Besides he said it's "completely dumb to take 1% crit over 1% hit" which even if it's a loss of 2 DPS is far from "completely dumb", on top of the fact you're actually gaining dps with 1% crit over 1% hit becuase of ISB.

Obviously if you ignore ISB 1% hit will have an edge over 1% crit.

 

Vlar

Devils Advocate:

But as said above 1% more hit is also more chances to crit.

/DA

I wonder how much ISB is effected by a 1% in crit on 1 warlock compared to 1% more chances to have the crit.

 

Goedel

Vlar, adding hit for increased ISB uptime is a reasonable "devil's advocate" concern, but the thing is that misses don't consume ISB charges, while non-crit hits do. So while a greater hit chance does increase the chance of getting a crit and thereby applying ISB, it also increases the chance of getting a regular hit and thereby consuming ISB that is already up. This does not mean that adding hit chance lowers ISB uptime (some quick sanity checks at border cases can refute that idea), but it does help explain in fuzzy terms why, if the models are correct, adding crit chance is a more effective way to increase ISB uptime.

 

Arelenda

Can you post results with 12.6 and 22.1 rating? I'll update the compendium with your findings.

 

Vlar

some quick calculations (if I am wrong, feel free to point it out)

Given:

Hit: 90% base
Crit: 25% base
Shadowbolt casts: 100
Damage on hit: 1000
Damage on Crit: 2000

Base:
90 hits, 22.5 of them being crits
Hit Damage: 67500
Crit Damage: 45000
Total: 112500

91% hit, 25% crit:
91 hits, 22.75 of them crits
Hit Damage: 68250
Crit Damage: 45500
Total: 113750

90% hit, 26% crit:
90 hits, 23.4 of them crits
Hit Damage: 66600
Crit Damage: 46800
Total: 113400

Difference between 1% hit and 1% crit:

you gain 350 dmg, 1 more hit and .65 less crits by taking 1% hit over 1% crit

so even then you would have almost exactly the same ISB uptime.

 

galzohar

It's not beucase misses don't consume, it's simply because if you have, say, 25% crit, 1% hit will be as good as more or less 0.25% crit in terms of ISB uptime. Much less than 1% crit, obviously. Hit and haste (same arguments apply to haste) are much less of an increase to ISB uptime than crit is.

Hit rating though is still a much bigger DPS increase under the hit cap due to its cost. Haste rating, crit rating and spell damage are close enough to eachother to refer to the spreadsheet with your gear and raid composition to tell the difference. But comparing % to %, or 22.1 crit rating to 12.6 hit rating, crit simply comes on top by being equal to more or less equal amounts of spell damage, while 12.6 hit falls a bit lower in spell damage equivalence (how much exactly does depend).

All of this is easy to see on leuler's spreadsheet if you put in the correct stats and realistic raid composition for the ISB model.

 

oscredwin

Question in practicality, how does one get 1% hit(aside from hit rating)? Preferably in some format that can be traded for crit.

 

Thebeefe

The talent Supression is the only other way, each point provides 2% +hit for AFFLICTION ONLY. For destruction (Shadow Bolt, Immolate etc) there is no other way other than +hit rating.

 

oscredwin

That's what i thought, but is there any where in the whole wide world (of warcraft) that someone ever makes the trade off of 1% crit vs 1% hit?

More productive area of inquiry, has anyone done testing in how much spelldamage the exalted SSO proc's are worth?

 

Thebeefe

Not any more, before 2.0(i think) items were giving a % of crit and hit, not a rating value. At that time you could trade 1% hit for 1% crit directly, nowadays its much more complicated, hence discussions such as this.

 

Akj

Only close situation I can think of is a warlock with 14% hit choosing between an elemental shaman, moonkin (2%hit v 2% crit).

 

Arelenda

Most tradeoffs in gear choice do come down to a hit vs crit in certain amounts, so it's not a completely moot point.

 

PSGarak

A question that came to mind: does [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] make Immolate worth casting?
I realize this isn't relevant even to a large class of Affliction warlocks, where immolate is already worth casting. I'm actually on the borderline: with about 350 more shadow than fire, Immolate has a higher DPCT than shadowbolt but according to the spreadsheet the extra fraction of a lifetap actually means it lowers my DPS.
In any case, the more general question is: how much does Timbal's affect Immolate? (a slightly more general question is how does a fourth (or Nth) DoT affect Timbal's, which is relevant to the UA vs Ruin debate.)

So, given a 10% proc rate and a 15s internal cooldown:
Adding Immolate (or a fourth DoT of any kind) adds one tick per three seconds, bringing your expectation of the proc time from
15 + 10*(3/3) = 25
to
15 + 10*(3/4) = 22.5
This decreases the time between procs by 10% exactly, increasing the frequency of procs by 1/9 = 11%. The DPS of the proc, 380/25 = 15.2 (pre-debuffs) base, goes up by 15.2/9 =~ 1.7 (also pre-debuffs).

So Timbal's increases the value of your fourth DoT by 1.7 DPS, scaled by debuffs on the mob.

Note that due to the internal cooldown and the way fractions work, Timbal's gives higher marginal advantage to adding a third DoT and less to adding a fifth. However, most edge cases (immolate and UA vs ruin) deal with adding a fourth DoT.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png