Only close situation I can think of is a warlock with 14% hit choosing between an elemental shaman, moonkin (2%hit v 2% crit).
Cept the shaman gives 2% crit with the hit too... :P
On the Hit vs Crit ISB uptime argument, I think there's a detail that some of the folks are missing.
If you have a 90% chance to hit, there's a 10% chance to miss.
If you have a 25% chance to crit, there's also a 10% chance to miss.
I think it would take hours of combat simulation to produce documentable solid granite evidence, but 1% to hit (if not capped) is still better for ISB uptime than 1% of crit is, for this reason alone...
Oh, and Hi EJ =)
PS: whomever made/maintains the warlock spreadsheet is my personal hero.
Edit: I suppose that could be mis-read, I don't mean that after the crit the 10% miss is applied specifically to the crit, like it gets its own roll or something.
My understanding (and that shared by folks i've theorycrafted with) is that this is how the attack rolls go:
1) Shadow Bolt Casted
2) Does it crit?
3) Does it hit?
4) Whatever on-hit or on-crit procs you may have like Soul Leech or gear procs.
A question that came to mind: does [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] make Immolate worth casting?
I realize this isn't relevant even to a large class of Affliction warlocks, where immolate is already worth casting. I'm actually on the borderline: with about 350 more shadow than fire, Immolate has a higher DPCT than shadowbolt but according to the spreadsheet the extra fraction of a lifetap actually means it lowers my DPS.
In any case, the more general question is: how much does Timbal's affect Immolate? (a slightly more general question is how does a fourth (or Nth) DoT affect Timbal's, which is relevant to the UA vs Ruin debate.)
So, given a 10% proc rate and a 5s internal cooldown:
Adding Immolate (or a fourth DoT of any kind) adds one tick per three seconds, bringing your expectation of the proc time from
15 + 10*(3/3) = 25
to
15 + 10*(3/4) = 22.5
This decreases the time between procs by 10% exactly, increasing the frequency of procs by 1/9 = 11%. The DPS of the proc, 380/25 = 15.2 (pre-debuffs) base, goes up by 15.2/9 =~ 1.7 (also pre-debuffs).
So Timbal's increases the value of your fourth DoT by 1.7 DPS, scaled by debuffs on the mob.
Note that due to the internal cooldown and the way fractions work, Timbal's gives higher marginal advantage to adding a third DoT and less to adding a fifth. However, most edge cases (immolate and UA vs ruin) deal with adding a fourth DoT.
I believe someone mentioning a 15second cooldown on it. Feel free to confirm it for us, though. I'll add it to the compendium.
Cept the shaman gives 2% crit with the hit too... :P
On the Hit vs Crit ISB uptime argument, I think there's a detail that some of the folks are missing.
If you have a 90% chance to hit, there's a 10% chance to miss.
If you have a 25% chance to crit, there's also a 10% chance to miss.
I think it would take hours of combat simulation to produce documentable solid granite evidence, but 1% to hit (if not capped) is still better for ISB uptime than 1% of crit is, for this reason alone...
Oh, and Hi EJ =)
PS: whomever made/maintains the warlock spreadsheet is my personal hero.
Edit: I suppose that could be mis-read, I don't mean that after the crit the 10% miss is applied specifically to the crit, like it gets its own roll or something.
My understanding (and that shared by folks i've theorycrafted with) is that this is how the attack rolls go:
1) Shadow Bolt Casted
2) Does it crit?
3) Does it hit?
4) Whatever on-hit or on-crit procs you may have like Soul Leech or gear procs.
Correct me if I'm wrong though =)
This order is correct but your conclusion is wrong. Hit does not come even close to crit regarding ISB time increase. Your crits/second will go up significantly more by adding even 1 crit rating over 1 hit rating.
For example on lieuler's spreadsheet adding 30 crit rating would increase ISB uptime by 1.48% while losing 30 hit rating will reduce ISB uptime by 0.33%. It's no surprise as increasing the hits by even more than 2% when you have 25% crit still increases the chance of a certain spell to crit by a bit higher than 0.5%, while increasing chance to crit by 1% would increase chance for a given spell to hit and crit by almost 1%.
Again, % per % crit is clearly better, the only reason hit wins is because of the rating conversions being that much cheaper. And there's a reason they're cheaper otherwise nobody would use that stat.
I believe someone mentioning a 15second cooldown on it. Feel free to confirm it for us, though. I'll add it to the compendium.
Sorry, I meant to say 15 seconds. It's the number used in the calculations, I just missed a keystroke in the description. In any case, both the proc rate and cooldown was pulled from wowhead.
This order is correct but your conclusion is wrong. Hit does not come even close to crit regarding ISB time increase. Your crits/second will go up significantly more by adding even 1 crit rating over 1 hit rating.
For example on lieuler's spreadsheet adding 30 crit rating would increase ISB uptime by 1.48% while losing 30 hit rating will reduce ISB uptime by 0.33%. It's no surprise as increasing the hits by even more than 2% when you have 25% crit still increases the chance of a certain spell to crit by a bit higher than 0.5%, while increasing chance to crit by 1% would increase chance for a given spell to hit and crit by almost 1%.
Again, % per % crit is clearly better, the only reason hit wins is because of the rating conversions being that much cheaper. And there's a reason they're cheaper otherwise nobody would use that stat.
So where is my math incorrect? by the numbers I gave, at 25% crit and 90% hit, 1% hit is equal to .35% crit, making less than 1 less crit over 100 casts.
Edit: Why would it roll on crit first? Doesn't it have to hit before it can crit with spells?
Hm, is it possible to add a little 2-line comment in the compendium that Mana Potions are the best consumable to use for maximising DPS in a fight where some life taps/dark pacts while standing still are required?
Our warlocks were quite surprised by that, I fetched some quotes from the thread and a link to the spreadsheet, trying to convince them.
Even just a little entry near "Additional tips and tricks" would be enough, just to give that pretty vital info in an otherwise great compendium.
I was in the tankgroup though i was allowed to sacc sukkubus for extra damage.
I usually ride at about 1200 DPS, with a support group i can reach 1300 to a maximum of 1.4 K which was my highest so far, i dont count fights like gorefiend where i can do 1.5 1.6K dps.
As you can see im extremely low on hitrating as i do prefer crit. It seems to give me the better results dps wise, a high ISB uptime for the raid and my DPS is steady and rocking i usually am one of the better dds ranking between 1-3 in the damage done list.
I had about 18K dmg lost due to partial resists on this fight and this is not counting the 8 Shadowbolts that were completely resisted at least this is what recount showed me.
My question is the following, in terms of gems and stat allocation which stat would be ultimately superior for me in terms of pure dps, hit rating or pushing for even more crit rating and ignoring the spelldmg i.e replacing some 4 crit 5 spelldmg gems with 8 crit gems?
Im not very good at theory crafting but i Study chemistry and im pretty good at mathematics so if you have some calculations for me to do that would be awesome
I was in the tankgroup though i was allowed to sacc sukkubus for extra damage.
I usually ride at about 1200 DPS, with a support group i can reach 1300 to a maximum of 1.4 K which was my highest so far, i dont count fights like gorefiend where i can do 1.5 1.6K dps.
As you can see im extremely low on hitrating as i do prefer crit. It seems to give me the better results dps wise, a high ISB uptime for the raid and my DPS is steady and rocking i usually am one of the better dds ranking between 1-3 in the damage done list.
I had about 18K dmg lost due to partial resists on this fight and this is not counting the 8 Shadowbolts that were completely resisted at least this is what recount showed me.
My question is the following, in terms of gems and stat allocation which stat would be ultimately superior for me in terms of pure dps, hit rating or pushing for even more crit rating and ignoring the spelldmg i.e replacing some 4 crit 5 spelldmg gems with 8 crit gems?
Im not very good at theory crafting but i Study chemistry and im pretty good at mathematics so if you have some calculations for me to do that would be awesome
I really appreciate any help.
It's funny how many questions can just be answered from using the spreadsheet that Leulier made... It's going to be hit though.
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.
Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.
Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/
Hmm, if you'd read the compendium it'd tell you "cap hit with gems".
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P
The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.
And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I would like to know your logic to stack crit. Crit is an statistical stat too and stacking it, based on your logic could not give you the results you want because the number os casts in a fight is too small.
So your logic is flawled and because of that you are wrong.
Hm, is it possible to add a little 2-line comment in the compendium that Mana Potions are the best consumable to use for maximising DPS in a fight where some life taps/dark pacts while standing still are required?
Our warlocks were quite surprised by that, I fetched some quotes from the thread and a link to the spreadsheet, trying to convince them.
Even just a little entry near "Additional tips and tricks" would be enough, just to give that pretty vital info in an otherwise great compendium.
Some quick math and working with the sheet showed me that for my gear and spec, [Super Mana Potion] scores about 50% better than a destro pot. The gap becomes smaller when considering Bloodlust/Heroism and high haste rates, but even then mana pots seemed to be better. Note that destro pots combined with Bloodlust/Heroism during any special phase (such as a vulnerability or wild magic or somesuch) can be the better option.
Given the relative low extra dps output from these things (less than 50dps by optimistic estimates), I think that unless you're having major trouble with an enrage, it's safer to skip the potions and have an extra emergency button in the form of a [Super Healing Potion] or [Super Rejuvenation Potion] or a [Mad Alchemist's Potion]. I'll update the compendium when I have some more time.
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P
The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.
And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I can answer this one pretty easily.
If you're looking at damage meters for one fight, they won't be representative. If you take them from an entire raid's worth, it'll contain about half as much trash damage as boss damage, depending on how much time you spent on each. Except on trash, the hit cap is 50ish. Hit is useless against the majority of the mobs you're fighting. If you fought bosses exclusively, the difference would be much more noticeable.
The main premise for stacking hit is that it is the best way to increase your dps against bosses, which is where dps matters. While one could make some valid points against this, this is why people tell you to stack hit.
I don't recommend using ShadowSeer at this point, it needs a rewrite for 2.4, which is not something I'll work on soon. I want 2.4 to stabilize first.
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.
Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/
The spreadsheet is using math under optimal conditions, and so it will also give you the optimal number of your DPS. I doesn't take account for lag, movement and the players ability to play his character effectivly.
In addition, if you take your stats and set your hit up from 8% to 16% you will see that you gain 1700DPS instead for 1600DPS. So, even if the spreadsheet is giving you number you can not live up to in a real enviroment it still shows you that over time hit will give more damage. And in the long run average wins.
I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.
I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.
Ty in advance
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.
Originally Posted by XStoliX
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P
The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.
And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I'm wondering what you're expecting to hear from this forum if you're unwilling to listen to the advice that's being given. Everyone here is going to tell you the same thing: hit is best until you're capped, use the spreadsheet to model what you need next.
The spreadsheet will never tell you exactly down to the last DPS point exactly what you will put out on a given fight, but it's a great way to model a perfect situation. Just because it can't tell you perfectly what you're capable of doesn't make it useless. It's easily the most effective tool for a warlock to model ideal DPS for our specs, and if it gave you an answer you didn't like or didn't want to hear, there isn't very much we can do about it, and we aren't here to validate your assumptions.
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.
.
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.
The spreadsheet will tell you exactly what stat is best to next improve your DPS. The first post in this thread has links to the spreadsheet as well as plenty of other good information about gearing.
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.
Scenario is something like :
-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.
Scenario is something like :
-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock
Which specifically are you looking at? I found that on Brut shadow out paced fire. We downed him lastnight and all our locks were shadow bolt 1 affliction.
Werp - 1934 dps affliction warlock with 25% crit on bolts
If we take the dps difference between the fire lock and the shadow lock and divide it by the combined dps of the shadow dps'ers, shouldnt it show the percent of dps for each which ISB needed to provide to make up the difference? (If I am completely off, I will edit this out)
03/30/08, 2:44 PM
so if you have some calculations for me to do that would be awesome 
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