Arelenda

If fire locks in raid do as much damage as shadow ones, they're better off as shadow for ISB.

 

cynics

i was talking to Durcyn about that attempt and he said:

<cyn> durcyn, do you typically get out out dps'd by firelocks
<cyn> cause i noticed your dps time was 97% where as draxyl was 100%
* bump is now known as bumpmeetingbump
<durcyn> there was some movement on that attempt, iirc
<cyn> ah
<durcyn> and no, he's just recently gone fire, and has picked up more haste, so it's a bit early to tell

 

Cronjob

Just for ref here is ours..

Wow Web Stats

I was looking at the DPS but also the total damage out for comparison purposes. Number of bolts etc.

EDIT: I noticed I matched their damage out but not in DPS.(not sure how that impacts anything) Also both have the same damage out. Our top lock however is insane.

 

• kendra

hmm.. no unstable affliction .. thats affliction with ruin skilled ?

 

Tornwings

Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find it in the main post or in the pages i've read so far. How much of a dps is increase is the exalted hyjal caster ring over the revered one? I also can't find it in the spreadsheet, since it's a proc and not a stat.

 

Vlar

Reading the first post helps...

Last time I saw the theorycraft, Ruin outdps'ed UA at approximately 25% crit.

 

Vlar

One thing you can do is switch them out in the spreadsheet while changing nothing else. I believe that the proc is accounted for.

 

calisti

Fortunately, the DPS spreadsheet contains a formula for determining the damage value of an item proc. On the advanced infos tab you will find the following:

Avg proc period for a CD proc: CD + [attack period] * (1-proc%) / proc%

You'll also find the +damage value of the proc on this tab. The spreadsheet then takes the average damage bonus of the proc and adds it to the overall spell damage bonus for the ring. Note that this value actually varies depending upon your your talent spec and spell timing. And in case you're wondering, my spreadsheet lists the average value of the proc as +14.41 damage.

 

Arelenda

The "dps" number is totally unreliable. Just look at total damage done over the fight, it's the best measure you'll get.

 

galzohar

Actually, if you gave a spreadsheet enough data it would give you the DPS down to the point at least up to the level of randomness. However the time in a fight you spend not DPSing, and the luck or lack of luck you get on hits/crits, will have little to no effect on optimal gear choices, which is why the spreadsheet is so great.

If you waste little time not dpsing in a fight and play up to the level the spreadsheet is expecting you to play, you'll actually come pretty close to the DPS listed there. This isn't possible on all fights though, but still aside from small mana regen factors that still work while moving, in a fight where you DPS 80% of the time you should more or less get 80% of the spreadsheet's listed DPS. And remember an error of up to 5% (or even more on shorter fights) is very reasonable due to randomness of crits, but it doesn't change the way you pick stats as increasing the average increases not only the average but also the minimum and maximum reasonable expected DPS, helping both during "reasonable bad luck" and "reasonable good luck".

As for ignoring hit, that's going to do great on trash meters but isn't going to do good on bosses. While % per % crit is much stronger (which you can see on the spreadsheet by adding your DPS increase from 1% crit and raid ISB DPS increase and comparing to what you'd get from your DPS increase and raid ISB DPS increase if you add 1% hit), you need much more crit rating than hit rating to gain 1% which makes hit rating the ultimate stat for boss DPS until capped. Bosses is what makes progress though, and therefore that's what people theorycraft for. If you want to farm faster (especially outside of raids) it'd take a completely different kind of theorycraft which will give quite different results (favoring spell damage a lot more and hit a lot less and giving damage/crit different weighting depending how much either would help to actually kill a mob in less spells depending on its HP etc). Trash meters, while requring similar gearing to boss gearing, are completely independant of hit rating (+5% hit on gear would cap you on everything that's not a boss) and therefore looking at full instance clears will greatly discourage hit capping.

Not to mention that you need to remember at the end, any theorycrafting is very hard to measure in practice due to a lot of reasons with the main ones being play skill, non-DPS fight elements and luck of the dice, but it doesn't make them any less valid, as on average (and in the long run) going by the theorycraft *will* increase the DPS you're dealing.

 

Gnomish

***Edit. Moved this question to a different thread.***

 

Vlar

These are the numbers going by Leulier 2.2 which I got at various crit levels

ISB DPS (copied and pasted, not sure how the formating will go):

Number of shadow users 5 Raid Setup
You SU 2 SU 3 SU 4 SU 5
type warlock warlock SP SP
crit 21 15 25 0 0
hit 14 16 16 16 16
SB cast time 2.38 2.5 2.4
SB cast % 93.82% 60% 94%
MB Freq (s) 7.5 7.5
Shadow DPS 1728.3 1200 1100 1100 1100



Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 10
Hit: 14
DPS:1549.32
ISB: 39.73%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1565.25
ISB: 39.72%

+1% crit

DPS: 1665.5
ISB: 40.45%

Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 15
Hit: 14
DPS:1630.41
ISB: 43.2%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1647.26
ISB: 43.3%

+1% crit

DPS: 1646.68
ISB: 43.98%

Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 20
Hit: 14
DPS:1711.93
ISB: 46.68%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1729.7
ISB: 46.72%

+1% crit

DPS: 1646.68
ISB: 47.34%

Results:
By choosing 1% hit instead of 1% crit

10% crit shows a loss of .73% ISB uptime

15% crit shows a loss of .68% ISB uptime

20% crit shows a loss if .62% ISB uptime

So at multiple gear levels, there will be an insignificant change in ISB uptime (about 7 crits every 1000 casts).

Edit: clarification

Edit 2: ISB is the Total Shadow DPS under the Raid ISB Tab (removed)

Edit 3: ISB changed to ISB Uptime.

 

Trickykid

Some of that ISB contribution to your DPS is already included in your personal DPS. You may be double counting that part if you're summing raid shadow DPS.

 

Vlar

If his assertion that % crit is greater than % hit due to an increase in ISB DPS, wouldn't that skew the results in his favor?

Edit: the ISB I posted is useless, ignore it while I update.

 

Kinsen

This question may be better suited for the dps spreadsheet thread, and if so my apologies in advance. My question concerns spell haste vs. spell crit especially now that spell haste gems will be available and more and more spell haste gear is prevalent. I've input my data into the spreadsheet and I see that for +1 haste rating, my dps bonus is 1.20 and +dmg is 1.41 while +1 crit rating = .87 dps bonus and 1.02 +dmg. So obviously from a personal dps standpoint it would be more beneficial to add haste over crit; however, how do I determine the impact of raid dps. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not a math & spreadsheets person, just trying to use the tools avail to the best of my ability but not sure that I'm reading the info given correctly. My main concern is overall raid dps and not personal performance. To me at first glance, spell haste almost seems more self beneficial than raid beneficial. So I'm curious how to best determine when I'm hurting the raid by going deeper into spell haste and sacrificing spell crit. Is there an easy way to determine this from the information in the dps spreadsheet?

 

galzohar

I don't see what's there to argue about. 1% crit > 1% hit, but 1 hit rating > 1 crit rating. I thought everyone already knew that except the person that posted saying "1% crit over 1% hit is stupid" which wasn't correct. The spreadsheet and all evidence brought here only help to my point, showing that if you count ISB 1% crit is definitely better than 1% hit, with the problem with crit being that it takes >1.7X the amount of rating (or itemization points) to get the same %s, and 1% crit is only a bit better than hit, not even close to 1.7X better.

 

Crepe

You're assuming a 2-roll system, which, AFAIK, has never been proven for spells. If spell casts are 1-roll, then improving hit as zero effect on your ISB.

 

Pidge

Is there a tool out there where I can input the relevant stats of a raid's warlocks and shadow priests and have it tell me which warlocks should be Shadow and should be Fire for maximum raid DPS?

 

Zaq

Other than working it out with the spreadsheet, no not really.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

galzohar

You're right that a 1-roll system would mean hit has 0 effect on ISB, but as you can already see crit is much more ISB anyway. Also there seemed to have been enough testing to at least declare the 2-roll system as "much more likely than 1-roll system". I'm sure you can find the actual tests if you're dedicated enough.

Making a definite test though is quite impossible as you'll need an insane sample size with low hit chance and high crit chance against a mob of a level which you know how much crit and hit you're supposed to have against. While we know the hit chances based on mob level, since we don't know how crit chances are affected by mob level it's something that's very hard to prove. But making reasonable assumptions along with test that was already done backed up the 2-roll system quite well. While it could be wrong, its highly unlikely.

On a side note, when close to the hit cap the difference between a 1-roll system and a 2-roll system is incredibly small, and with how cheap hit rating is you'd probably cap it regardless of the rolling system.

 

rochan

If the box Raid TNS = 1 then it is counting the raid improved shadowbolt sheet.

 

galzohar

Only in the TNS portion. If you manually increase your crit chance the added raid ISB DPS will not add into your personal DPS (although the personal ISB DPS will add). It's pretty straight-forward with how it's labled ("Raid TNS")

 

achille

You are assuming that casts are on a 2 roll system, which is not certain and actually on this board the latest conclusions were that they are on a 1 roll system.

 

cladnin

Went through the first few pages and it definitely wasn't answered there, and I think it should be on the first post personally. UA vs Ruin: what's better damage?

 

rochan

Actually, the first line of the first post should probably read: USE THE SPREADSHEET IT WILL ANSWER 90% OF YOUR QUESTIONS!