PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 89

cladnin · 04/01/08, 1:11 PM

I suppose that helps, seems like something that could be useful to be listed however. However, I see nothing mentioned about a spreadsheet on any of the first lines before he goes into spec detail, smart ass.

'm going to try and attempt to summarize the vast wealth of information going around.

Note that the compendium will be updated once the 2.4. patch goes live. Feel free to discuss patch changes in this thread, but I will only keep track of live changes in compendium itself.

Warlocks have many great talents, and there is lots of room for customizing your spec. Consequently there are many viable hybrid builds, each requiring a different play style. To keep this guide short, I'll focus on the three main tiers and their most sensible pve raid builds. Even within those there are a lot of variations possible.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I don't see what's there to argue about. 1% crit > 1% hit, but 1 hit rating > 1 crit rating. I thought everyone already knew that except the person that posted saying "1% crit over 1% hit is stupid" which wasn't correct. The spreadsheet and all evidence brought here only help to my point, showing that if you count ISB 1% crit is definitely better than 1% hit, with the problem with crit being that it takes >1.7X the amount of rating (or itemization points) to get the same %s, and 1% crit is only a bit better than hit, not even close to 1.7X better.

The numbers I posted above your post are from the spreadsheet.

If it is such a huge difference because of ISB uptime, why is the uptime effected by less than 1%?

Thanahtos · 04/01/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by cladnin

Went through the first few pages and it definitely wasn't answered there, and I think it should be on the first post personally. UA vs Ruin: what's better damage?

First, use the spreadsheet, second, it's UA, it was proved multiple times throughout this thread...

edit: Name-calling will get you no where Cladnin, there's another thread in the Class Mechanics forums called "another Warlock DPS Spreadsheet" or something like that. Use that spreadsheet, it will answer all your questions that were asked at least twenty times before.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by cladnin

I suppose that helps, seems like something that could be useful to be listed however. However, I see nothing mentioned about a spreadsheet on any of the first lines before he goes into spec detail, smart ass.

It is in the first post.

Optimally just one warlock in the raid should have them. The UA support build is recommended at starting levels, with the Ruin support build likely to perform a bit better at end level raiding, due to high amounts of hit and crit rating on pieces at that level.

cladnin · 04/01/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thanahtos

First, use the spreadsheet, second, it's UA, it was proved multiple times throughout this thread...

Obviously the warlock data is a bit confused, now isn't it? Kind of getting a mixed review here. The spreadsheet said ruin over UA.

Thanahtos · 04/01/08, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by cladnin

Obviously the warlock data is a bit confused, now isn't it? Kind of getting a mixed review here. The spreadsheet said ruin over UA.

You gave us no indication on your gear level. Seeing as you're a mage, I would assume it's for someone else in your guild. Also, going Ruin removes the possibility of an Improved Imp, which is one of the main reasons for an Affliction Warlock. (Along with SE and Malediction)

edit: If you want a warlock to do the optimum DPS, he should spec DS/S&F. If you want support, he should go UA Affliction, with 5/5 SE, 3/3 Malediction, and 3/3 Improved Imp.

dsl1 · 04/01/08, 1:45 PM

Difference between Fire and Shadow Destro at high gear levels is too minimal to switch.

Shadow scales better with damage and sunwell gear supports that.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 1:49 PM

Link: Hit/Crit Comparison from the the Spreadsheet

Edit: to make link more noticeable.

Derezzed · 04/01/08, 1:53 PM

I love the spreadsheet (it will be taking away a lot of valuable work time) but what I don't get is that, no matter what I seem to do, or what variations on gear I select, Felguard is always the most DPS.

I've changed from FSW/Spellstrike to T4 and T5 and T6, but the 2 Felguard specs are always the highest dps.

Am I doing something wrong? I will admit I need to play around with it a bit more, but no matter how much gear I change around, Demo/Destro is always number one. If I have 30% crit or 5% crit, it doesn't matter.

oh yeah, and fire locks are higher DPS than shadow as well. I am confused.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Derezzed

oh yeah, and fire locks are higher DPS than shadow as well. I am confused.

As noted earlier, Fire is higher DPS, but a loss of ISB.

Flamingcloud · 04/01/08, 3:04 PM

I plug incin spec for my gear(changing cloak/wep enchant obv and adding a few veiled pyrestone to makeup for cloak hit) and get a 30dps gain(and this is assuming magic 100% immolate uptime), lose 8% ISB uptime, lose nether protection, lose soul leech. Draw conclusions from that as you will..

Deathwing · 04/01/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Derezzed

I love the spreadsheet (it will be taking away a lot of valuable work time) but what I don't get is that, no matter what I seem to do, or what variations on gear I select, Felguard is always the most DPS.

I've changed from FSW/Spellstrike to T4 and T5 and T6, but the 2 Felguard specs are always the highest dps.

Am I doing something wrong? I will admit I need to play around with it a bit more, but no matter how much gear I change around, Demo/Destro is always number one. If I have 30% crit or 5% crit, it doesn't matter.

You're wondering why a spec that takes the most amount of support and attention is #1 dps, and yet still can't be used on all boss fights?

galzohar · 04/01/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

The numbers I posted above your post are from the spreadsheet.

If it is such a huge difference because of ISB uptime, why is the uptime effected by less than 1%?

I don't understand what you were expecting, ISB from 1% crit to be significantly higher than 1%? Sorry man but you're not looking at it properly.

The so called "less than 1% ISB uptime increase" is more than enough raid DPS increase to make 1% crit better than 1% hit. Just look at the final numbers after inserting all data to see what gives you more if you can't just look at the bigger picture and see that 1% hit is barely more personal DPS than 1% crit but noticeably less raid DPS from ISB uptime.

Remember even 0.5% ISB increase is 0.1% DPS per shadow user which is kind of equivalent to 0.5% DPS increase to a single shadow user, which is slightly less than 1/2 of the benefit of 1% hit. Add that to the "almost as good as 1% hit" DPS you get from 1% crit and you get clearly more total raid DPS from 1% crit than 1% hit.

But again, hit rating is so much cheaper even with crit being in the area of 1.5X (more or less... but not even close to high enough margin of error to make it lower than 1) better than hit, hit is still about 1.7X cheaper due to the rating system (itemization cost) and thus better to stack until cap.

Just because you get a small number doesn't mean it's insignificant. A near-zero number multiplied by a near-infinity number can give both a near-zero number, a finite number or even an infinite number. Where it falls depends on how close to zero VS how close to infinity. In the case of crit and ISB the tiny increase of ISB uptime is multiplying multiple players' DPS and the result, while not anything huge, quite far from zero as well and it's definitely big enough that you cannot neglect it and get good theorycrafting results.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I don't understand what you were expecting, ISB from 1% crit to be significantly higher than 1%? Sorry man but you're not looking at it properly.

The so called "less than 1% ISB uptime increase" is more than enough raid DPS increase to make 1% crit better than 1% hit. Just look at the final numbers after inserting all data to see what gives you more if you can't just look at the bigger picture and see that 1% hit is barely more personal DPS than 1% crit but noticeably less raid DPS from ISB uptime.

Remember even 0.5% ISB increase is 0.1% DPS per shadow user which is kind of equivalent to 0.5% DPS increase to a single shadow user, which is slightly less than 1/2 of the benefit of 1% hit. Add that to the "almost as good as 1% hit" DPS you get from 1% crit and you get clearly more total raid DPS from 1% crit than 1% hit.

But again, hit rating is so much cheaper even with crit being in the area of 1.5X (more or less... but not even close to high enough margin of error to make it lower than 1) better than hit, hit is still about 1.7X cheaper due to the rating system (itemization cost) and thus better to stack until cap.

Just because you get a small number doesn't mean it's insignificant. A near-zero number multiplied by a near-infinity number can give both a near-zero number, a finite number or even an infinite number. Where it falls depends on how close to zero VS how close to infinity. In the case of crit and ISB the tiny increase of ISB uptime is multiplying multiple players' DPS and the result, while not anything huge, quite far from zero as well and it's definitely big enough that you cannot neglect it and get good theorycrafting results.

Again...

Originally Posted by Vlar

Link: Hit/Crit Comparison from the the Spreadsheet

Edit: to make link more noticeable.

Note where the Totals for hit % + ISP DPS change are greater than the crit % + ISB DPS change

Edit: this is from the spreadsheet.

Arelenda · 04/01/08, 5:58 PM

Updated the compendium with some patch things. Let me know if you find any mistakes or if something could be cleared up. Next update will include gems, they're on the "to-do" list.

Bolche · 04/01/08, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

Link: Hit/Crit Comparison from the the Spreadsheet

I think you are mixing 2 differents numbers.
For exemple if we look at the first table (10% crit, 14% hit) :
16.18 is the dps you gain from 1% hit, while 0.742 is the dps the raid gains from 1 hit rating.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Bolche

I think you are mixing 2 differents numbers.
For exemple if we look at the first table (10% crit, 14% hit) :
16.18 is the dps you gain from 1% hit, while 0.742 is the dps the raid gains from 1 hit rating.

Ok, I just went back and manually changed the % in the spreadsheet too see the differnce in actual raid dps.

Base (10% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6049.3
11% Crit: 6065.5
15% Hit: 6065.3

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 1.91

Base (15% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6130.4
16% Crit: 6146.7
15% Hit: 6147.3

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 2.64

Base (20% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6211.9
21% Crit: 6228.3
15% Hit: 6229.7

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 3.38

What am I looking at wrong on the spreadsheet? By switching it manually % for % I am still showing 1% Hit > 1% Crit

Edit: Bolche, I am getting these numbers from Cell L11 of the Raid ISB Tab

Trickykid · 04/01/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

Edit: Bolche, I am getting these numbers from Cell L11 of the Raid ISB Tab

That cell doesn't take into account ISB for anyone except you.

Set Raid TNS to 1 to include ISB changes in your "Next Stat" Table. Compare cell C40*12.6 to C41*22.08.

This conversation has gone on a really long time now considering the size of the variables by raid. There won't be a useful generic answer to this so I'm not sure how productive this is -- everyone should be using the values for their own raid group (with a unique mix of stats per shadow DPSer and number of Locks v SPs) and go from there.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

That cell doesn't take into account ISB for anyone except you.

Set Raid TNS to 1 to include ISB changes in your "Next Stat" Table. Compare cell C40*12.6 to C41*22.08.

This conversation has gone on a really long time now considering the size of the variables by raid. There won't be a useful generic answer to this so I'm not sure how productive this is -- everyone should be using the values for their own raid group (with a unique mix of stats per shadow DPSer and number of Locks v SPs) and go from there.

So where on the Spreadsheet does it give you the Raid DPS increase by ISB?

The cells you listed give the amount of damage that the TNS is worth, not the change in Raid ISB DPS. People are stating that the spreadsheet shows that 1% Crit is better than 1% Hit because the DPS increase from the increased ISB uptime, so how do they see that?

Trickykid · 04/01/08, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

So where on the Spreadsheet does it give you the Raid DPS increase by ISB?

In the next stat section, which includes the increased DPS from 1 point in each of the stats via your own damage and raid damage from ISB.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

In the next stat section, which includes the increased DPS from 1 point in each of the stats via your own damage and raid damage from ISB.

Are you sure? That looks more like a comparison to adding 1 damage.

Edit, Grammar

Trickykid · 04/01/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

Are you sure, that looks more like a comparison to adding 1 damage.

Same thing... X/Y = (X/Z)/(Y/Z).

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, setting Raid TNS = 1 includes the increase in DPS via ISB.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

Same thing... X/Y = (X/Z)/(Y/Z).

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, setting Raid TNS = 1 includes the increase in DPS via ISB.

With that, wouldn't you have to then compare it to the non ISB values to get the difference (the actual increase by ISB)?

Trickykid · 04/01/08, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vlar

With that, wouldn't you have to then compare it to the non ISB values to get the difference (the actual increase by ISB)?

If you wanted JUST the increase from ISB, yes. But the issue was total value to the raid (personal and ISB-contributions) per stat point. That's exactly what 'The Next Stat' section does. You may be trying to make this more difficult than it is.

Vlar · 04/01/08, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

If you wanted JUST the increase from ISB, yes. But the issue was total value to the raid (personal and ISB-contributions) per stat point. That's exactly what 'The Next Stat' section does. You may be trying to make this more difficult than it is.

Ok, I might understand it now:

1% Hit provides a personal DPS increase with a > .73% Decrease in ISB uptime.

A 20% increase in damage .73% of the time is the only difference in Raid DPS between crit and hit, making it (.2*.0073) .146% of the Raid's Shadow DPS.

So if the Raid's Shadow DPS is 5000, the ISB dps increase from 1% crit over 1% hit is 7.3.

This would then be added to the personal DPS 1% crit and compared to the personal DPS of 1% hit.

Am I on the correct path at least?

Edit: Clarification.