PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 93

clavarnway · 04/07/08, 9:30 AM

From what I've gathered by talking to people who've been Demonology, they just summon a new Felguard when the old one is OOM. They also have 1 point in mana feed, to keep his mana up during raids.

If your Destruction DPS via the spreadsheet is only 5 dps less than UA dps on the spreadsheet, you're better off going Destruction (based on my experience). Human error plays a pretty big part in bringing UA down from the spreadsheet DPS, though that amount varies from person to person and encounter to encounter.

rutiene · 04/07/08, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

From what I've gathered by talking to people who've been Demonology, they just summon a new Felguard when the old one is OOM. They also have 1 point in mana feed, to keep his mana up during raids.

If your Destruction DPS via the spreadsheet is only 5 dps less than UA dps on the spreadsheet, you're better off going Destruction (based on my experience). Human error plays a pretty big part in bringing UA down from the spreadsheet DPS, though that amount varies from person to person and encounter to encounter.

This would be highly dependent on the fight. Since most of the higher end bosses (that I have encountered at least) require quite a bit of mobility, I would argue that UA is easier to keep up due to the fact that most of the spells have a much lower cast time than Destruction, including three instant casts. My main issue when I specced destruction was trying to find a place where I could spam Shadowbolt, and I sincerely felt this restriction had a negative effect on my DPS.

Nicarras · 04/07/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Parzifal

Thanks for the feedback. Crit is something that I'm starting to think about now. I plan on getting the Demonsoul Robes and Boots of Blasting, which will help that cause. My equipment improved over the weekend and I now have about 1470 shadow self-buffed (food, oil, fel armor).

According to the spreadsheet, UA spec is about a +5 dps change from 21/40... but that assumes perfect DoT timing and all DoTs going to the last tick, right? In practice, when I was UA specced, my dps just wasn't good at all -- and the spec isn't good for farming or PVP, imho.

I switched to 7/43/11 demo this weekend and was blown away by how superior the spec is for farming. I can literally send the felguard in, do the two instant cast DoTs while I'm looking for another target, repeat, and then clean up the loot after 3-4 creatures. For the first time in a long time, I need bigger bags for all the junk that drops! The raw dps isn't really that much better -- but my dots and pet are still doing damage while I'm looking for targets and cleaning up loot -- making the spec MUCH faster for farming. In fact, amusingly, I end up using Drain Life at times since it ticks for about the same as a netherweave bandage, and as such, keeps me from having to stop to heal after the fight.

It's about the same dps in an instance from what I've seen so far, though far better on trash and much easier to control threat with on bosses. The only disadvantage as noted here before is that micromanaging the pet is important -- but it's also fun (being a shadowbolt turret is only so entertaining).

The worst issue I have now with it is replenishing my demon's mana - the felguard goes through mana very quickly. Although I have 1/3 mana feed, he needs mana more often than I need to lifetap. Any suggestions?

As a final comedic note - it's amazing how people squirm after someone posts a dps meter to raid chat, isn't it?

Cool, as always play what is fun for you!

Although be careful with trying to fine some 'perfect' spec that allows you to PvE/PvP/Grind and do all of them really well. It doesnt really exist...especially if you play your Lock a lot, 'cause you'll see the differences in spec's even more.

PvP I'll spec SL/SL or Felguard/Sburn
PvE I'll spec shadow or fire dest
Grinding I can pull off in my PvE spec well enough (even better if I two box with my priest behind me), but if I want to power solo grind...Affliction is the best.

As for the mana problems of your pet...I'm not sure, I've never really raided with a Felguard, I guess you could switch the spec around to have 2/3 Feed. Aside from that are you just leaving all his spells on autocast?

Parzifal · 04/07/08, 2:04 PM

Two good things here: Il'l have to try resummoning the felguard after he's OOM and yes, I have been leaving his spells on autocast (I didn't think about either of these things). After using the quick-summon talent once, though, I wonder if it's really faster to resummon or just to tap and bandage. As for leaving his spells on autocast, this is probably a noobish mistake for my first time with demo. Are there any that I can leave off that would make a big difference without adversely affecting his dps/utility?

Nicarras, you're right about there not being a panacea spec... I really just want something that I can use at least for raid/instance and farming work without having to respec. Now that I think about it, it's been so long since I was heavy aff, it probably is great for a similar kind of grind that demo is good for (though I wonder if blueberry's toughness is a problem since the Felguard can take hits from 4 mobs for a little while without dying).

Nicarras · 04/07/08, 2:12 PM

Yeah when I grind as Aff I grind with an Imp out and drain tank like 4-5 mobs, tada dead.

Intercept you can turn off...so when you send him it hes not doing anything, plus you really only need that stun in pvp/grinding.

Was Felguard Cleave fixed in the patch in regards to breaking CC? I havent spec'd that way since the patch.

Deathwing · 04/07/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Nicarras

Yeah when I grind as Aff I grind with an Imp out and drain tank like 4-5 mobs, tada dead.

Intercept you can turn off...so when you send him it hes not doing anything, plus you really only need that stun in pvp/grinding.

Was Felguard Cleave fixed in the patch in regards to breaking CC? I havent spec'd that way since the patch.

Only thing that stuck that way was Avenger's Shield. Everything else was reverted.

galzohar · 04/07/08, 2:35 PM

Ah of course. I entered the gear I use on trash, not what I use on bosses. I do have the gear to be hit capped on bosses even if I swap the shoulders for Nimble Thought. I tried that in the spreadsheet and get a 20 DPS increase from swapping to Nimble Thought actually now.

Remember it's not nescessarily a 20 DPS increase. To gain the hit you're losing from T5 you're losing spell damage and/or other stats elsewhere, so in reality the DPS increase is quite lower than 20 DPS (and possibly even a decrease but most likely not). Therefore you have to see how much DPS you could gain from the hit on T5 and substract that from the 20 DPS gain on mantle of nimble thought.

At the end nobody uses it because of heart cost and the fact you're going to need 4pcT6, and at least pre-2.4 you could only get away with 1 non-T6 piece, and having the chest from vashj, legs from archimonde or helm from illidan are all going to serve you better and require you to wear T6 shoulders anyway. Even after 2.4 you can simply use more than just 1 of those 3 items and still use T6 which will be better than using nimble thought. So save the hearts for shadow resist and once that is done with use them for bracers of nible thought and other more useful items.

Originally Posted by Parzifal

According to the spreadsheet, UA spec is about a +5 dps change from 21/40... but that assumes perfect DoT timing and all DoTs going to the last tick, right? In practice, when I was UA specced, my dps just wasn't good at all -- and the spec isn't good for farming or PVP, imho.

No, it is assuming that the dot-gap in game is the same as the dot-gap you entered on the spreadsheet in the appropriate field. By defualt this is set to 2 seconds which is probably quite higher than what you should get if you try hard enough, so in reality your dps should be a little higher than the DPS the spreadsheet lists for affliction.

Deathwing · 04/07/08, 2:42 PM

Dot gap in the spreadsheet is at 1 second. Can someone explain what exactly dot gap is? I've always assumed it was the mathematical model of "human" error causing dots to not be reapplied immediately after they end.

galzohar · 04/07/08, 2:56 PM

DoTs don't only delay because of human error, they also delay becuase of shadowbolt's casting time, other DoTs' casting time and the GCD.

Vlar · 04/07/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Remember it's not nescessarily a 20 DPS increase. To gain the hit you're losing from T5 you're losing spell damage and/or other stats elsewhere, so in reality the DPS increase is quite lower than 20 DPS (and possibly even a decrease but most likely not). Therefore you have to see how much DPS you could gain from the hit on T5 and substract that from the 20 DPS gain on mantle of nimble thought.

At the end nobody uses it because of heart cost and the fact you're going to need 4pcT6, and at least pre-2.4 you could only get away with 1 non-T6 piece, and having the chest from vashj, legs from archimonde or helm from illidan are all going to serve you better and require you to wear T6 shoulders anyway. Even after 2.4 you can simply use more than just 1 of those 3 items and still use T6 which will be better than using nimble thought. So save the hearts for shadow resist and once that is done with use them for bracers of nible thought and other more useful items.

I made mine while we thought that it would take us a while to get that far... then less then a month later we were 4/5 MH and 4/9 BT, so no other hearts were given out (that and the fact that we got lucky with a crapload on the first night, without having another night like that again).

That would be easy to test with the spread sheet, I did a quick test on the T6 level gear, lowered the hit til I hit 202 with the T5 shoulders, and then switched to the haste ones, regemming with same quality gems (blue for blue, purple for purple) and found a 5 dps difference. This is with BT quality gems in the T5, since those should be widely available soon. With out regemming, I saw a 17 dps difference.

If we had realized how much the hearts would be needed and how crappy the drop rate really is, I never would have made them, but they are technically an upgrade (Although, if you wanted to make a spell haste set for fun, they would work well).

Cronjob · 04/07/08, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by rutiene

This would be highly dependent on the fight. Since most of the higher end bosses (that I have encountered at least) require quite a bit of mobility, I would argue that UA is easier to keep up due to the fact that most of the spells have a much lower cast time than Destruction, including three instant casts. My main issue when I specced destruction was trying to find a place where I could spam Shadowbolt, and I sincerely felt this restriction had a negative effect on my DPS.

Depends on gear really. Movement doesnt matter much when you are hitting 8-10k bolts back to back to back, in fact it helps a bit because you drop in aggro a bit. Also trinket/group setup will boost a destro lock more than a affliction lock. Blood lust, Shadow sissy

Jadari · 04/07/08, 6:15 PM

Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.

galzohar · 04/07/08, 6:25 PM

Affliction builds live by their DoTs, as for 1.5s cast UA/corruption are in the 4k damage area, but can only be casted every 18 seconds. Immolate and SL are also good damage per cast time but can't be casted often. Your shadowbolts are significantly less DPCT.
So taking it to the extreme, if you only have time to UA/corruption, affliction will definitely always win. If you just stand still at all time, at all reasonably high gear levels, destruction wins hands down.
Therefore there's a certain amount of movement in a fight that would be the break-even point between affliction and destruction. As it seems though, at the higher gear levels at least, that the movement is simply not nearly intensive enough to hurt destruction enough to go under affliction's DPS. And at the lower gear levels affliction warlocks seem to simply not be skilled enough to take full advantage of their DPS (you hear every so often that kara/gruul-farming warlock that gained 200-300 DPS by switching to destruction even though for his gear the specs should be more or less equal DPS).

Arelenda · 04/07/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jadari

Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.

It might be because those guys have tons better gear than you do. For them haste might be better.

The difference isn't that big in the first place, so you can see how a different gear setup would alter the relative values. I haven't checked this out myself, but I'm guessing that'd be the answer.

Jadari · 04/07/08, 6:44 PM

Hmm, that makes a ton more sense. I'm confuzzled as to what I should do still, perhaps I'll just stick with 10 haste.

LockApologist · 04/07/08, 7:18 PM

In general, the relative value of crit, haste, and damage fluctuates based on your current gear. However, as you enter BT/MH, Lionseye will likely be a low demand gem, while spinels and pyrestones are much higher demand. When you've been farming for months (and when your realm gets the anvil), it won't really matter.

Vlar · 04/08/08, 1:31 AM

Originally Posted by Jadari

Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.

Perhaps I am blind, but I see that your posting toon is a warrior, and I don't see a link to your warlock. A view of your armory, while narrow would provide a better understanding than "but have the absolute best before that, I think."

I would say go by the spreadsheet, it should start leaning more towards haste as +spell damage increases.

Arelenda · 04/08/08, 2:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jadari

Hmm, that makes a ton more sense. I'm confuzzled as to what I should do still, perhaps I'll just stick with 10 haste.

They're less than 1% apart, and they're gems. A minor difference on an item that makes minor difference in the first place will not make any measurable difference. Get whatever your guild can part with, there's usually shortage on the red ones, or go with your personal preference if you have a choice.

No offense, but I think you're losing sight of the big picture here. Raid dps is in the 10-20k ballpark, and you're fussing over 0.1dps difference. I understand wanting to min-max, but if you're looking to boost raid success there's probably other areas that could be improved.

Christian · 04/08/08, 5:57 AM

Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!

Anthraxx · 04/08/08, 5:57 AM

Mentioned gems are very close in terms of DPS, but I think you're overlooking one more thing.

After certain amount of haste your latency (faster casts -> more gaps between them) and mana (more casts -> higher mana consumption -> possibly more tapping) might be a significant factor of your dps.

I'd say go 12 dmg wherever you can

Fafhrd · 04/08/08, 6:12 AM

Originally Posted by Christian

Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!

You are correct, there are no problems with being at 129% tank threat in any bossfight except Prince Malchezaar, where I've heard that the MT could get Enfeeble if you are above his threat. I think that's been fixed though. Your raidleader is wrong.

(However there are some encounters where you might suddenly find yourself in melee range of the boss, and then it can be very bad to be above 110%.)

Aphex- · 04/08/08, 6:38 AM

Due to the great mix/max efforts that the challenges of Sunwell face our raids, particularly Brutallus, I've taken it upon myself to spec as our guild's affliction warlock, as the benefits of Malediction + Shadow Embrace outweigh (IMO) the benefits of additional DPS from the standard destro bulid. Self sustainability is also a perk, as being to Drain Life for +1000/sec at times is invaluable. Having been disappointed in the amount of DPS an affliction warlock could do with a UA spec while remaining in a tank group with zero synergy(for imp, part of our strategy to max tank HP), I chose to try out a different spec and was surprised at the results.

38/2/21, based on the old-school SM/RUIN builds, takes all the affliction goodies (Malediction, 5/5 Embrace, Dark Pact), along with Ruin and 2/3 improved imp. While my gear at the moment was sub-optimal for the spec (wrong meta, gimp boots), I was able to pull off higher than I expected DPS.
WWS: Wow Web Stats

My question to Sunwell warlocks with an affliction spec: Have you had more success with a UA build or one similar to my own? What kind of DPS numbers should I be aiming for on Brutallus as affliction?

If this has been answered before, or can be answered with the spreadsheet then sorry, but I'm very bad at those kind of things.

Shagaire · 04/08/08, 8:20 AM

That's the same spec i used on our first kill but I'm gemmed all haste instead of damage.

Wow Web Stats

The one issue we did have was dots being pushed off during our first few tries so i don't really know if a UA spec would work so well in a DPS race fight.

Parzifal · 04/08/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

And at the lower gear levels affliction warlocks seem to simply not be skilled enough to take full advantage of their DPS (you hear every so often that kara/gruul-farming warlock that gained 200-300 DPS by switching to destruction even though for his gear the specs should be more or less equal DPS).

You're right about this... I was in this situation when I just dinged 70 and was learning my class - went from about 500 to 700-800 dps just by respeccing. Part of the problem, though, was that I was getting advice on dps for Kara in general (trash included) instead of just boss dps. It would have been very interesting to know what my dps was on the bosses since Affliction is no good on trash when your group is clearing them quickly.

Chaley · 04/08/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Aphex-

Due to the great mix/max efforts that the challenges of Sunwell face our raids, particularly Brutallus, I've taken it upon myself to spec as our guild's affliction warlock, as the benefits of Malediction + Shadow Embrace outweigh (IMO) the benefits of additional DPS from the standard destro bulid. Self sustainability is also a perk, as being to Drain Life for +1000/sec at times is invaluable. Having been disappointed in the amount of DPS an affliction warlock could do with a UA spec while remaining in a tank group with zero synergy(for imp, part of our strategy to max tank HP), I chose to try out a different spec and was surprised at the results.

38/2/21, based on the old-school SM/RUIN builds, takes all the affliction goodies (Malediction, 5/5 Embrace, Dark Pact), along with Ruin and 2/3 improved imp. While my gear at the moment was sub-optimal for the spec (wrong meta, gimp boots), I was able to pull off higher than I expected DPS.
WWS: Wow Web Stats

My question to Sunwell warlocks with an affliction spec: Have you had more success with a UA build or one similar to my own? What kind of DPS numbers should I be aiming for on Brutallus as affliction?

If this has been answered before, or can be answered with the spreadsheet then sorry, but I'm very bad at those kind of things.

While I do not have the greatest of the great gear, I've been 38/2/21 for my raid for a long time (just recently switched to destro due to boredom). If you are able to put in good attempts at bosses in Sunwell, you shouldn't be specced for UA any longer as SB crits are far more valuable. On nights where I'm actually putting forth a lot of effort, I'm putting out about 1200 DPS without any group synergy. When I get bloodlust and totems, I can put out 1500-1600 DPS. While I have yet to see the use for an affliction warlock in Sunwell, it was very useful in Hyjal/BT while we were learning the dungeons.