Flamingcloud

You are of course assuming that omen isn't a pile of crap atm. Which is of course a bad assumption. I think staying below 100% atm is probably the best thing you can do until there is a threat meter that doesn't suck.

 

Trickykid

It's fine if people have similar versions. As far as threat is concerned, most fights involve some sort of gimmick that makes it difficult to even get up to the tank's threat. On some fights where there is an ability that ignores the tank, I'm wary of going above 100%, but the rest you should be good to go. The only two I worry about are Teron and Azgalor (which isn't normally a problem since you get silenced).

 

calisti

Omen is fairly reliable if the entire raid updates just before raid start time. We've been doing this every raid night for the past week, and it works like a charm. Having everyone on the same version of Omen and Threat-2.0 fixes MOST of the quirkiness with the mod. Yes, its somewhat annoying to do this every raid night, but its worth it.

 

Sardaukar

Correct although this would only be the case on fights where the boss actually has an ability like that. Off the top of my head, Archimonde's Air Burst, Teron Gorefiends Ghost thing and Azgalors Doom thing. The rest of the time it shouldn't matter and I'm finding as I start to collect a decent T6 level gear set that I'm pushing threat in the early stages of fights to the point where I'm in the 100% to 120% range until I soul shatter.

 

Morwen

1800 in a tank group is very solid and quite close to spreadsheet conditions, I'm personally impressed by the 370 seconds of effective casting time over 375 seconds of combat. Bonuses like 4T6 and CSD tilt in favor of Ruin. I've been going aff/ruin for Brutallus as well and UA is almost out of the question since even with just corr/siphon as the only affliction warlock I was running into debuff slot issues.

One more thing, the WWS doesn't show imp damage, pets should be immune to Brutallus's abilities and are thus safe to let attack.

 

Vlar

Bosskillers says that Teron Gorefiends Shadow of Death only ignores the highest on the aggro list, is this incorrect?

 

rochan

I was gonna say imp would die to meteor slash but I guess you could just park it behind Brutallus, so that would add a solid 100-150 dps to the affliction bitch? (well maybe less when the imp runs OOM) And you wouldnt be able to use dark pact in that case...tradeoffs.

Our aff warlock (40/0/21, in DPS group with ele sham) did ~1600 DPS.

Also Vlar, we regularly have mages/warlocks pass 100% threat on fights like Teron and never have the tank get the spell cast on him. So I don't know if it really matters.

 

Flamingcloud

If by fairly reliable you mean has numbers that sort of resemble threat when you do that, yes.. Have you ever successfully ridden a boss at 125% threat in any 2.4 version of omen? My experience with 2.4 omen is you usually pull aggro somewhere between 95-110%.

 

Arelenda

regarding Omen: yes, I hope it'll be fixed soon. It's annoying as hell. I'll try the updating thing.

regarding 130% treshold: As far as I know, the only boss where you can NOT go over 100% is Prince, and even there I'm not sure that's not been fixed. All other boss you can go up to 130% theoretically (although that'd be pushing it, I'd use Life Tap or Soulshatter when I reach 115% and up)

About 38/2/21: Interesting, can you post it so I can include it in the Compendium? Update: if it wasn't already on there. Embarrassing!

 

galzohar

While I know some wierd bosses (not in BC raids, and don't really remember to list) did swap to the top person on the threat list from the tank after using a certain ability, I don't remember anyone complaining of a boss doing something like that in BC. Prince is a special case, he doesn't actually re-target but rather is poorly designed to enfeeble the MT if he's not on top of the threat list - and as far as I know he's the only boss that does that kind of thing in the whole game.

It's better to wipe once and find out you can't go above 100% then do the boss 100 times and every time do a lot less DPS becuase you don't know you can go above 100%. Omen complaints are just silly, if omen messes up it can mess up and make you pull aggro at 100% just as well as 50%, 130% or 150%.

 

Flamingcloud

Well you can't go over 100% in zul'jin phase 1.. Everything in BT/Hyjal should be safe aside from maybe archimonde.. but between pvp trinket on and one fear/burst you probably aren't getting back to 100%.

 

galzohar

The reason there's very little data on the few special cases where you can't go over 100% is that those cases are quite rare combined with raid leaders and players as one being afraid to pull the line and go over 100% and see what happens.

 

Clandestine

I'm fairly sure that the boss can switch agro if you go above 110% on any fight with a random secondary target ability.

 

Christian

Thanks for your comments regarding the 130% threat thing. rest assured that it is not just a question für the theorist inside me. I have serious aggro problems on Illidan (although pausing in p1 is not really an issue regarding killing Illidan, it certainly sucks), on ROS p2/p3 (that might be a tank-gearing issue though) and sometimes on bosses where it's purely random if you are in a tank&spank-situation or actually have to adapt some strategy.

So if anyone can give me certain facts, even if it's just regarding certain bosses, i am very grateful. (Malchezzar has not seen me in a while)

 

Roywyn

Our tank once got ghosted when some DPSer was above him on threat, but didn't pull aggro.
That was a few months ago though, and may have been fixed (october/november roughly).

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Flamingcloud

That is most definitely not correct. Example, on both gorefiend and illidan I have been over 110% and not pulled after secondary targets, including secondary targets on me (ie parasite, etc) This was back when omen worked and I am 129% without aggro and 130% with aggro.

 

Tyralia

I've tried to do a bit of searching on this but haven't been able to find much (I generally suck at searching sigh...) but could anyone pls explain to me why, if the spell dmg co-efficient is a constant and so is the amount of speed increase you get from haste (not including the haste cap which I'm no where near)......why is it that after getting X amount of damage haste becomes better than dmg? How does that work?

 

SchLing

The spell co-effiency is based on the cast time of the spell, but is not effect by any talents that improve them. A 3 second cast gets 100% of your +damage, while anything lower than a 3s cast gets less of your +damage. I can't remember the exact % vs the cast time on the top of my head.

Haste is not effected by the same mechanic, meaning that a 0,5s reduction in cast time will affect all your spells.

 

Clandestine

It might not be the case for all random secondary target spells then, or it may have been changed. I never tested it extensively, but when my guild was learning Hydross 1.0, we had several cases of Hydross switching agro after a water bomb or that poison debuff that lowers your damage and healing. I haven't really played around with it since then.

3.5 second spells get a 100% coefficient, not 3.0 second spells. The coefficient a spell gets depends on several thiings, such as whether the spell is a direct damage spell or a DOT, whether the spell is an AoE or not, whether the spell has a healing component, and so on. This page has a fairly comprehensive list of coefficients: Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. In general though, direct damage spells get a coefficient which is their cast time divided by 3.5. Most DOT spells get a 100% coefficient, and AoE spells receive a one-third coefficient. If a spell is an instant-cast, it is considered a 1.5 second spell for coefficient purposes.

 

Arelenda

What you're saying is right, but the wowwiki seems far off. Base time is 3.5s, 15s for dots.


Spell power contribution per spell, ripped from ShadowSeer:

regular:
- Shadow Bolt: 3s/3.5s = 85.7 + 4% per talent point in SNF (up to 105.7%)
- Incinerate: 2.5/3.5s = 71.4 + 4% per talent point in SNF (up to 91.4%)

- Shadowburn: 1.5s/3.5s = 42.8%
- Searing Pain: 1.5s/3.5s = 42.8%

- UA: 18s/15s = 120%

Halved because of life gain (or stun in Shadowfury's case):
- Drain Life: 5s/3.5s /2 = 71.4% total (14.2% per tic)
- Death Coil: 1.5s/3.5s /2 = 21.4%
- Shadowfury: 1.5s/3.5 /2 = 21.4% on all targets
- Siphon Life: 30s/15s /2 = 100%

Channeled aoe:
- Hellfire: 15s/7s = 214.2%. This is 14.2% per tic (note that damage to self is boosted 10s/7s instead)
- Rain of fire: 8s/7s = 114.2%. This is 28.6% per tic

Exceptions:
- Corruption: 94% + 12% per talent point in emp Corruption. (up to 130%) over 6 tics
- CoA: 120% over 12 tics. unsure how it is distributed.
- CoD: 200% (unaffected by Shadow Mastery)
- Seed (dot): 150% total (30% per tic)
- Seed detonation: 16.6% on each target (aoe cap applies)
- Immolation: 20% (initial hit), 65% (dot). Initial hit damage is boosted by improved Immolate, so spellpower contribution is 1% extra per talent point in that.
- Soul Fire: 115%

Any other multipliers will apply to the total damage.

Let me know if I'm wrong about any of these.

 

Talosh

You already mentioned it in your first post, but with a wrong talent link to wowhead:

Correct one would be Click me.
There you can swap a few point to other talents in the affliction tree (eg. Click me too), if you are up to pure CoS/CoE duty and therefor don't need CoEx/CoP.

Honestly I cannot determine when Ruin>UA (I leave that for the mathematician), but for a warlock with MH/BT/SW-Gear, you definitely should have that gear.

A lightning arrester on a steeple is the strongest vote of no confidence against our beloved god.

 

shamitude

I wanted to know the damage rotation of a destro lock with the demon sacrafice build, since my warlock just hit 70 i was thinking about using fire because ive read that fire has more dps for newly 70 locks and because i usually raid with 2 affliction locks with improved shadow bolt. I wanted to get youlls opinion if i should use fire or shadow and what damage rotation i should use for whichever is better. thanks!

 

Zaq

With a newly 70 warlock you shouldn't be Destro.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

galzohar

While you could make a lot of rules for spell damage coefficients, the fact is spells that aren't a simple nuke with no untalented secondary effect (shadowbolt, fireball), will get a coefficient that is an exception to the rules. UA/corruption for example are special cases and get 15s coefficient even though they're 18s, AOEs seem to each have its own rule, etc. If you really want a coefficient of a spell better trust wowwiki or even better test yourself, as so many spells simply don't follow these rules (as in, they follow the rules in general but have some added modifier for one reason or another, like frostbolt getting less than expected due to its snare and UA/corruption for no known reason).

The reason haste scales better the more spell damage you have has nothing to do with what that was said above in my and the other posts here.

DPS = damage / casting time
Keeping things simple, Factoring casting time by 1/x (where x = 1 + haste rating/15.7) will multiply DPS by x. Factoring damage by x will also multiply dps by x. The more spell damage you have the more spell damage is needed to multiply dps by x while same amount of haste is needed. Also the more haste (rating, heroism/bloodlust don't apply as they're another multiplier to your cast speed) you have the more haste rating you need to multiply DPS by x. Therefore the more haste you have the better spell damage is and the more haste you have the better spell damage is, since they multiply eachother.

Keep in mind, though, that you need to add a lot of spell damage to actually change the amount of spell damage needed to multiply DPS by X by a noticeable amount, so this change in scaling of stats with different gear levels is actually very very slow. Especially if you consider the fact that higher gear has not only higher spell damage but also higher haste, making that change be even smaller as gear is upgraded. And there's no actual rule as to which stat has its value scaling better as gear scales up, as it depends on how much haste vs how much spell damage you gained.

Simliar explanations can be used for crit vs damage or crit vs haste (as well as hit but hit is too good to be left under the hit cap anyway so is best handled differently).

 

◊ Melbuframa

The warlock Fallenman of < Casual > on Mal'Ganis has been testing this and posting on the WoW forums, according to his tests, Ruin starts to out DPS UA at ~1300 Damage & 25% Crit fully buffed

His thread is Here