Calixtus

But if both the moonkin and the warlock are acceptable choices for your guild, why take the warlock?

I'm not saying that I think the new system is going to make the game worse. I'm not going to shout "THE SKY IS FALLING!". But I'm not sure everyone's using the same perspective. Unless the druid class is infested with a higher proportion of total jackasses while us warlocks are all dazzling personalities and wonders of social skill, the druids can - depending on their interest - compete for caster DPS, melee DPS, tanking and healing. We have caster DPS.

If they do this right, will the boomkin have an advantage when it comes to assigning the DPS slots? No. We will be competing on "equal terms". Will there, not as a rule, but based on probability, be more druids than warlocks in any given raid? Hell yes. If they, as a class, can compete for more slots in addition to competing for ours on equal terms, then unless druids are all twats and bad players and exlcuded for that reason, there'll be more of them than warlocks in a raid. The same goes for any hybrid; A DPS warrior who can off-tank during trash has an advantage a rogue cannot match (No, rogues tanking Gruul does not count as empirical evidence on the contrary =P ).


Now, again, I'm not saying I think this is a huge issue that makes this solution worse than the problem it's addresing. But "I will not neccesarily lose my raid spot to a druid because I am a warlock" and "There will be more druids than warlocks in our raids" are not mutually exclusive statements, and I think we're being a wee bit too cavalier in dismissing the fact that any hybrid class - assuming equal terms - is more likely to find a spot in raid and a guild than a pure class.

 

tetracycloide

Assuming equal terms hybrids are no more likely to find a raid slot than 'pure' classes. Based on probability if the only difference between classes is the skill of the player sitting behind them, if any class can compete on equal footing for a role in a raid, then the logical distribution of classes is two or three of each.

This is true for a couple of reasons. As long as class specific loot exists this will be the case. It will always be, on average, faster to gear six players of two different classes than six players of the same class assuming they use different tokens. Player skill is also a random variable that is normally distrubted around an expected value. Given this fact the third best player of one class you find is going to be, on average, worse than the first player you find of another class. This assumes that no one class is predominated by players of above average skill and as much as it's fun to make jokes about this not being so the odds are good that it is.

These points are not new, they have been brought up repeatedly in this thread and in several other WotLK threads. From a raid lead's persepective they are very significant and will play a very large role in raid composition after the expansion hits.

My vanity is justified.

 

Sydane

There will always be people who play every class. There will always be people within a class that only play or gear for certain specs as well. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting to play a certain way, those that play druids often enjoy being able to fill multiple rolls, but I knew tons of shaman who absolutely resented being asked to or required to heal in Sunwell. Blizzard does not balance class against class in PvE. You are balanced by spec and role. Just like a druid has the option to respec, you have the option to reroll as a druid. If I wanted to be a healer, I wouldn't be a warlock. I have an enhancement shaman who will never be a healer either, though she certainly casts heals if it is needed in an emergency. But she will never be well geared for resto, and even more so never for elemental, as I have no need or desire to have another caster. I have a prot paladin who I've recently spent more time on healing than tanking, but has no Ret set whatsoever. At any time I can provide a character who can fill any of the games major roles. But I choose to raid on my warlock, and will continue to do so. Those other characters have no impact on how useful I could possibly be to a guild, because I am a raiding warlock.

The bleeding edge guilds don't recruit or staff based on potential respecs, they staff based on ideals for particular encounters. The vast majority of players have multiple 70s now and it only gets easier and easier to level alts. The logical extension of the hybrid argument is why would a guild ever recruit someone who doesn't have multiple raid level characters, and that's obviously a foolish question. You are never going to lose your warlock dps slot to another warlock who heals. Hybrids have to deal with that all the time. Five shaman per raid may be desired, but how many guilds run with more than two enhancement? Most guilds don't even run with more than one for that matter. So if you want to raid in that situation, you are forced to go resto. Yes, druids as a class can fill more of those roles than a warlock, and so potentially will have more raid slots in the grand scheme of things. But they can't add another role to warlocks, and druids shouldn't have to suffer in any of those roles simply because they could fill a different one with a respec and a new set of gear.

Blizzard cannot, will not, and should not balance classes around the ability to respec into another role. For all intents and purposes, that respecced character is an entirely different entity that just shares a name. If you want to be flexible as a character, by all means roll a druid or other type of hybrid. If you want to play a warlock, play a warlock. Guilds recruit and staff based on players and roles, even more in LK than now. I've seen T6 raids with 6 paladins in them, and I've seen some with one warlock. Every class has intangible benefits to being in a raid, every 25 man will still want at least one of each class. Beyond that, the other 15 can be pretty much whatever is available, as long as they are capable of filling the role needed. But "crappy spot healer" is not a real role, and encounters are not balanced around hybrid potential.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

F4nt0m

I agree 100% with this post, and it needs to be repeated as much as is necessary. The most common argument for baddies that want to do 2x the DPS of hybrid classes is that "they can heal." It's a ridiculous statement, and any hybrid that tries to stop DPSing and casting his untalented heal spells in my raid will get booted as soon as possible. At least, in a progression raid that is. In a trash raid, it doesn't matter what anyone does. You're invited for DPS, then DPS. If you can't DPS, you'll be replaced (in this case, by the lock that CAN dps).

And I'd like to add that his argument that "oh, I agree that the lock and druid will be equally likely for the 'dps' spots, but the 'utility' slots will guarantee that moonkin a slot." is flawed. You're forgetting that 1) all classes bring utility now. 2) Utility doesn't stack. The "dps" slots aren't just "dps" slots, it's impossible for those classes to not bring their inherent class-based utility at the same time as dps.

It's almost impossibly likely for a *twenty-five* man raid to not have *every single one* of the moonkin's buffs covered from somewhere else, because at least 3 different classes can provide every one of his buffs.

So, no, you don't need to invite that moonkin because of his 3% haste aura. You get that aura when you invite him, but you also get that aura from the Paladin you took for his mana battery utility. The moonkin could easily be subbed out for the warlock without losing any buffs in your 25 man raid if he happens to be an a**hole. He *does* help by providing the same buff as the ret pally in case it's the *ret pally* that lootwhores or whatever.

 

PSGarak

In the case of moonkin specifically, it also turns out that they lose DPS by bringing that utility because they could spec out of as many as 11 talent points, and unlike our current state, actually have DPS talents they could select instead. Warlocks may end up making the good utility class, not because we bring the most utility, but because we sacrifice the least to bring it. A raid with a moonkin may specifically look for warlocks in order to boost their moonkin's DPS (and shadowpriests and retadins), whereas a rogue, while having higher personal DPS, would not, so that warlock+moonkin > rogue+moonkin. It's a very strange dynamic they've created, and the min-maxing is much more complicated, but also much more subtle and having less of an effect.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Atrocity3

So now that the patch is on the horizon raiding is obviously gonna change and so is our dps. We arent going to have the same spec obviously due to the huge nerf of the 0/21/40 build. So im still trying to find a destro build to raid as when the patch comes out, but im unsure of what the top dps build is. I know its hard to say but id like to atleast get some ideas. I have played around with a 0/3/58 build as well as a 0/14/47 build. Its just hard to tell at this point because I dont know how F&B are going too work out.

Mages realize in T6 why they should have rolled a lock

 

Calixtus

In a raid with 15 DPS, 8 healers and 2 tanks, the 30 specs of the game could be broken down as follows: 23 DPS specs, 5 healing specs and 6 tanking specs (DKs are being counted as 3 for 3 in both DPS and tanking because I don't know enough about their mechanics, and I'm therefore going on stated intentions with design, and feral druids are also being counted twice).

Of the 23 DPS specs, 12 are pure (Mage/Hunter/Rogue/Warlock) and 11 are hybrid. Of the 5 healing specs, they're all hybrid. Of the 6 tanking specs, they're all hybrid. We fill the healing slots; Four classes used 2 slots each. We fill the tanking slot; There's 1 DK and 1 Warrior Slot. We've got 15 DPS slots, 23 specs, almost half of those are hybrids, and we cut down the middle, because they're all perfectly balanced and played by nice and competent clones. In what way are we not much more likely to be sitting with 3 druids than with 3 warlocks when we're done selecting - assuming that skill, gear and class balance is close to equal? For starters, I will be able to grab the Boomkin and the Feral Druid without them competing with eachother, much less competing with the two druid healers we already assigned for spots, where as each pure spec competes with the other specs within it's class. To get 3 pure classes, I need to pick 3 DPSers of the same class. To get 3 of a hybrid, I just need to pick one El/Ench Shaman OR, a Shadowpriest, or a Boomkin/Feral, or a Retridin and I've got 3 of that class. And that's assuming warrior/DK tanks, not Pala/Druid ones.


Now, as I said, I don't think the sky is falling, for several reasons;

• "Equal terms" is a loose assumption, in part due to the difficulty in arriving at a scaling balance between the various ways of doing damage, and in part because of the reasons PSGarak said; There will most likely still be "best utility" specs. "Played by congenial clones" is also unlikely; This change really does make it harder to pick an arbitary guy and say "You aren't going to raid, because you're a warlock", which is a good thing.
  
• The impropable assumption that there actually are enough players of the hybrid classes to overrun the pure slots. I think most guilds, regardless of tier, are probably going to see a larger proportion of hybrids (keeping in mind that 60% of the classes are hybrid classes), but I don't think the overweight will be significant. Noticeable? Probably.
  
• There's also the fact that while it will not be an ideal situation, it would be better than the situation we have today. Hybrid classes being considerably more likely to have more than two slots per raid is an improvement to "5 shamans, always". It'll be an improvement for the game.

 

Soulzar

MMO Champion seems to be updating the warlock talents and spells on their page. Affliction got some significat changes that have me looking at the tree in a more optimistic view. I haven not have time to really soak them in yet and play with builds, so I wont comment much on them, but I encourage everybody to check it out.

Are any of these changes reflected on Beta yet?

I am unsure if there is anything official posted about this yet by Blizz

8905 Affliction Changes currently posted at MMO

 

PyroTEK85

New glyph changes too:

* Glyph of Drain Soul - Your Drain Soul ability occasionally creates an additional soul shard.
* Glyph of Demonic Armor - Reduces the mana cost of your Demon Armor by 50%.
* Glyph of Fel Armor - Increases the duration of your Fel Armor spell by 30 min.
* Glyph of Kilrogg - Increases the movement speed of your Eye of Kilrogg by 50% and allows it to fly in areas where f lying mounts are enabled.
* Glyph of Souls - Your Ritual of Souls spell no longer requires a Soul Shard.
* Glyph of Inferno - Increases the Fire damage of your Inferno spell by 50%.

Glyph of Kilrogg looks like fun, maybe if it's a lesser/minor glyph (assuming they will have different types of glyphs still). Glyph of Drain Soul might be worthwhile too depending on the proc rate, but I really hope they just redesign the spell itself.

 

tetracycloide

3 druids vs 3 locks is a poor comparison because either would be roughly balanced from a raid makeup perspective. However, more than 3 druids is unlikely because a good raid leader with an eye toward progression is going to want to evenly distrubte thier raid to make the best use of class tokens. If half your raid is waiting for the same token while you're sharding the other two you are not progressing as quickly as you could be. This is significant when progression raiding guilds are downing new bosses with only one or two sets of drops from the last progression kill.

My vanity is justified.

 

PsyBomb

Pandemic Rank 3: Each time you deal damage with Corruption or Unstable Affliction, you have a chance equal to your spell critical strike chance to deal 100% additional damage.

The talent is 3 points, linked to and on the same tier as UA. I think I like it, considering those two spell make up a rather large portion of Affliction DPS.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Bonestorm

Obviously some really good changes to affliction, but the tree has become really bloated. Would be nice if they rolled malediction into amplify curse or something.

 

F4nt0m

As far as I know, that's blizzard's intention. For instance, look at the moonkin tree. It's HUGE, and you can't get nearly all the talents there. Blues have gone on record multiple times that that's the way they like it.

 

Darkwand3r3r

Other Affliction change:

Shadow Embrace
Your Shadow Bolt and Haunt spells apply the Shadow Embrace effect, increasing all periodic damage dealt to the target by you by 0%, and reduces all periodic healing done to the target by 0%. Lasts for 0 sec. Stacks up to 2 times.

I'm guessing this is buggy atm and will be fixed. My guess it's 10% on the dmg increase because it was 10% shadow dmg done before, so a small nerf to overall dps but with added utility.

 

Cpt. Hammer

I assumed they were all minor glyphs. It looks like every class but warriors and deathknights (who got their major ones this patch) got a bunch of cosmetic/duration altering glyphs.

 

knopik

So any thoughts on a raiding build when 3.0 hits? I considered an affliction build with ISB/bane, but I don't know how it will fair.

 

PSGarak

I'm trying to figure out what the hell the percent ranges actually are. As you drop points into it on mmo-champ, it goes (dmg/heal) 2/4, 4/6, 3/9, 0/0-1, 0/0-1. Soooo... I can't figure it out. It could be one or two percent damage per stack per talent point (10-20% DoT damage), and the healing reducting is between 1.5 and 3 times the damage amount. The HoT-specific MS effect is cute, I like it.

Pestilence is nice, two of our DoTs crit, and for double instead of the normal 1.5x going rate for full affliction. How good it is depends on your rotation, since CoA and siphon are left out, but if you're running a utility curse that's now the bulk of our damage that benefits from crit. We still like it less than most classes, but we're not gaining crap like we used to and can actually consider taking pieces other casters might like.

Noticeable change: Everlasting affliction is now 1% spellpower per point per tick on cor/UA/SL. I'm pretty sure this is a straight buff, since those spells have 6, 6, and 10 ticks respectively, buffing the bonus to 30/30/50 from 20 across the board.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

PsyBomb

the Embrace change just killed the fledgling SE/Imp Shadow Destro build. A pity, really, that one looked like it was going to be fun. Might still work overall, but not nearly as well as it was yesterday

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Soulzar

But the placement of erradication may have opened up more doors, though I think affliction top tier was buffed enough to not warrant a heavy hybrid into destro as well.

 

Pyralissa

Great changes really, it helps Afflictions scaling issues while keeping in theme with the tree. Very smartly done.

And personally, Affliction doesn't feel terribly bloated at the moment. Both Affliction and Destruction have a few tough choices to make (Intensity is looking tough in a Demonic Aegis/Destruction Build) but still have worthwhile trees to dip into. Destruction probably does a better job at reinforcing niche talents than Affliction though.

The new glyphs are fun, but on the whole the Warlock glyphs are disappointing. Especially compared to how well the Warrior glyphs came out.

 

PSGarak

The 10-man sets are up on MMO-champion. There's only one warlock set. It has a healthy amount of spirit. Those pieces that have it, have more SPT than INT. In general, the theme is 2X int, 3X stam, 3X spellpower, and 1.5-2X of 2 of the following: haste, crit, hit, spirit, with X ranging from 20 to 30 based on which piece it is.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Kayoto

For the periodic damage increase: 2/4/6/8/10% -- stacks up to 2 times.
For the HoT healing reduction: 3/6/9/12/15% -- stacks up to 2 times.

Pretty awesome stuff.

 

Soul

I notice that on the mmo-champion calculator, 2/3 Death's Embrace reads "increases the critical strike of your Shadow spells by 10% if your target is at or below 20% health" while 3/3 Death's Embrace reads "increases the critical strike chance of your Shadowbolt and Haunt spells by 15% if your target is at or below 20% health". Which of these is correct?

 

turturin

At first i thought the HoT healing reduction was a good buff until i realized:
1. It will have no meaningful use in raiding PvE
2. In PvP either you need to get 2 s's off on the same target, or two haunt spells, at least 10 seconds. That's a long time.

So it seems really to be just a 20% dot dmg increase (which is still darn good for points 21-25). Assuming 60% of dmg from dots thats a 12% increase in total.

You'll notice shadowbolt also applies the effect. I think this means the likelihood of a different filler spell for affliction has gone down.

 

Surgie

In case anybody is interested, Pandemic procs as a separate damage ability after the tick that is getting doubled.

http://surgie.net/wow/pandemic.jpg