WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 103

• Maels · 09/08/08, 2:25 PM

Just so you know when you're doing destro calcs; Chaos Bolt does work, only the immunity penetration is NYI, Fire and Brimstone does add to immolate damage, the conflag crit part is NYI.

Sydane · 09/08/08, 5:18 PM

Ghostcrawler has posted a thread asking for feedback regarding Metamorphosis:

WoW Forums -> Metamorphosis Feedback

Could one of our better written members with Beta access make a post consolidating the interests and concerns regarding it that have been discussed in this thread?

Luceferous · 09/08/08, 10:05 PM

Hi, regarding their desired Metamorphosis feedback - I find it quite depressing that they're feeling the need to ask for help with what was previously one of the most anticipated talent possibilities of the game, even way back in vanilla.

However perhaps there is hope, as I couldn't post in the US beta thread I posted what I think is a nice idea for Metamorphosis in the European class feedback thread, and here it is... if someone in the US beta likes it, please pass it on, although it clearly needs loads of work I think it fits with how many people want to play their Warlocks - locks should be gamblers, and effects like Hellfire and even Life Tap are too few and far between.

Hi, I'd like to post this in the US metamorphosis feedback thread but obviously can't:

Demon form has been one of the most anticipated possible talents for Warlocks but now its here it just doesn't seem to be going right. I hope that some of my suggestions may be helpful; this is how I'd like the talent to work:

- People saying the pet should stay are wrong, as you're meant to be merging with the pet. All pet synergy buffs should stay activated as if the pet is still active (as it is in a sense) except Soul Link as that'd probably get complicated.

- Demonology is currently shaping up to be the raid-buffing spec. For a demo lock it will be a toss-up between Metamorphosis and Ruin; Ruin will be better personal DPS than almost any conceivable talent so Meta should be a raid-buffing talent.

- I would like you to remove all the AoE and fear, and the Shadowbolts and any spell-casting, but keep an attack power buff based on spellpower (no need for armour, should be vulnerable I think) and Demonic Leap, with other pure melee abilities (stuns, shouts)

- I think that the ability should have a stacking attack power or haste buff for the party you're in, starting very slowly and getting more powerful, stacking every 5 secs say

- At the same time there should be a stacking shadow damage debuff (Reliquary of Souls phase three style) on the warlock which would become unhealable after a while (the locks health would reset to full on Metamorphosis but not on exit)

- It wouldn't have a time limit but there would be a point when no amount of healing will save you at about 45 seconds I guess or maybe less. You can right-click out of it at any time. Perhaps the shadow damage debuff would run for a minimum amount of ticks so people aren't tempted to use it to reset their health.

This makes it a great dps timer for raids, used like Bloodlust once a boss fight, and a gamble for the lock to see how far he/she could go on in the form providing benefits for the party while being on the brink of death, like an extreme Hellfire effect except providing a party buff not AoE. On exit from the form you could even be dazed and unhealable for a couple of seconds to further enhance the gamble.

It would also be a PvP gamble and extremely tactical in arena, also a shock tactic. Immunity to CC and removal of all snares would help. Perhaps the party buff would only stack as long as the demon-formed warlock is inflicting melee damage so people can try to outrun it etc.

I hope this is useful; I think the concept should be very simple i.e. Demonform is an insane, melee only crazy thing, that inspires others to go equally crazy, while at the same time killing the warlock that is hosting their own demon pet.

• Maels · 09/08/08, 11:24 PM

As a PvPer first, PvEr second, I don't like the idea of losing health for being in demon form at all.
Why would it have to be so deadly to the warlock to use (especially as a 51 talent pointer). Just let it do all the things you listed without eating our health away.

Wuff · 09/08/08, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Luceferous

Hi, regarding their desired Metamorphosis feedback - I find it quite depressing that they're feeling the need to ask for help with what was previously one of the most anticipated talent possibilities of the game, even way back in vanilla.

However perhaps there is hope, as I couldn't post in the US beta thread I posted what I think is a nice idea for Metamorphosis in the European class feedback thread, and here it is... if someone in the US beta likes it, please pass it on, although it clearly needs loads of work I think it fits with how many people want to play their Warlocks - locks should be gamblers, and effects like Hellfire and even Life Tap are too few and far between.

I really understand how you feel - it gets even worse if you look at the localized forums, like the german and french versions (I really pitty asian players). But that is another discussion.

Back to Metamorphosis:

According to the title, Blizzard wants us to merge with our demon, so you are right. Our pet should vanish for the duration of the effect. It would probably be far to much work to give us different metamorphosis effects depending on the demon we summoned before we use this ability, so I'll try to keep it simple.

That means we suddenly lose almost all of our spent talent points - the effect HAS to be crazy and noticable for everyone around us. This would lead to 3 necessary implications depending on your gameplay to make it a worthwhile 51 point talent.

1) Solo play (questing, farming, small group)
Currently, Metamorphis is only used for the full regeneration effect. Cancelling the effect and getting your pet back is better than trying to do something while in demon form.

2) PvP
Losing many survival talents has to be compensated with defense mechanisms. A strong melee attack is the opposite.

3) Raids
Due to the changes to the buff/debuff system there is currently no place for demonology locks (demonic pact isn't worth it when other classes provide almost as good perfomance improvements - too much loss of personal dps, too much microing and heal needed for felguards).

Suggestions:
Make all of the Metamorphosis attacks ranged (except if you want to create another firestone) - during the shapeshift the warlock should be one of the highest single target damage dealers in the game, definitely better than destruction locks. Aoe attacks are not needed - warlocks are one of the two top Aoe classes, we don't require a 51 points talent for that.
Finally, give us an insane group wide (not raid wide - implications for battlegrounds could be devastating) stamina/dmg absorption buff - this would make it an escape mechanism for solo/pvp play and a counter to some boss enrage mechanisms if we are put in the tank group at the final stages of a fight (it would also alleviate the loss of soullink or bloodpact).

PS: feel free to pass my ideas if you like them.

PSGarak · 09/09/08, 2:17 AM

The title does not imply that you merge with your demon. "Metamorphisis" implies nothing more than a shapeshift. If you want to be merging with your demon, go ahead, but don't take that as the current idea behind the talent. If they do go that thought, it's likely that you would want different effects depending on demon, like MD and DS. In fact, rolling the two together wouldn't be a bad starting point.

Soulzar · 09/09/08, 3:23 AM

Originally Posted by Luceferous

Hi, regarding their desired Metamorphosis feedback - I find it quite depressing that they're feeling the need to ask for help with what was previously one of the most anticipated talent possibilities of the game, even way back in vanilla.

I am conviced they released it in its inferior version on purpose. Give us crap, cause a stink, toss a bone, we leave happy. Give us something good, we get happy, balance it down, we leave pissed. I read reports, watch videos of the form, and I find it very hard to believe that this was an honest crack at what they intended to be even close to the final product. Why pay employees to think when you can put somehting out there and let thousands consolodate ideas for you to pick what works best for your end design plan. Damn jedi mind tricks!

Originally Posted by PSGarak

The title does not imply that you merge with your demon. "Metamorphisis" implies nothing more than a shapeshift. If you want to be merging with your demon, go ahead, but don't take that as the current idea behind the talent. If they do go that thought, it's likely that you would want different effects depending on demon, like MD and DS. In fact, rolling the two together wouldn't be a bad starting point.

Edit: Disclaimer, I missread you saying DS and MD.. I saw DS and Meta.

And TBH I really dont think I like the idea of buffs specific to what demon you have active. I guess it would be dependant on what you want from the talent personally, but the idea of having a requirement for an effect isnt one I particularily like.

Fel dom, an instant resummon. Up against a caster.. perhaps you want your felhunter.. pop there he is, your 15 minute situational demon. Now put that requirement before poping demon form? Are you going to spend time to summon a demon for the desired effect before each use? I appologize now for my obvious lack of pvp experience, however will a 51 point demo lock really be running around with any demon other than felguard to ever effectively make use of unique buffs per pet? The Concept is cool, however I just dont know the viability since PvE and PvP beneficial buffs can vary greatly, where as the standard demon for a 51 point lock probably wont. What if your demon gets killed.. would there be a base Meta that has no added buff or would you not be able to merge with you pet and thus logically not be able to use Meta.

I personally think they have a big hurdle to overcome with finding a way to implement it to work for both pve and pvp... the raid damage alone that it would have to make up to account for loss of demonic pact procs would make it impossible to be balanced for PvP. I am very curious to see how they change the tree and talens to get around this.

kaib · 09/09/08, 3:53 AM

Been playing around a bit on Beta now. First of all I think the best leveling spec is syphon life/felguard. Would go with succubus at 70 and then get felguard at 71, this is what I used:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With that spec soloing is a joke, I do syphon, agony, cor on mobs and have felguard on defensive. Pulling 4-6 mobs is not a big problem with 1500ish spelldmg (inkl demonic knowledge). I tried full affliction and various destro specs, but this seemed by far the best way to go. Also this spec meant I could solo every group quest up to lvl 78, only for the last mob in the magmataur chain in dragonblight I had to come back after I was two levels higher as he has a knockback and charge that made voidwalker tanking with health funnel really annoying. Otherwise between voidwalker and health funnel even quests tagged as 5 players were very doable.

Now I am almost 80 and doing mostly instances as outside in europe is not playable. First I tried some demon/destro spec that gave me complete rubbish dps, 1100 for a full run. After that I went full affl + ISB/bane and that's a bit better, letting me at least get to 1400-1700 dps in 5 men, although affliction is still as crappy as it always was in small dungeons. As Northrend is down since 7+ hours now, I ran some numbers on DrBoom. My gear is a bit worse then armory and I went from 25% to 16% crit (both including backlash) just due to leveling, the only item I upgraded during leveling was a cloak).

Full Affliction I couldn't really do more then 1700 dps until DrBoom went down, keeping up Cor, Ua, CoA, Syphon life, Immol and casting Haunt on CD, using MgT heroic trinket + skull but not using the skull and doing 0 pet dps.

ImpDestruction was better, getting up to 2400 fast but losing sustainable dps quickly due to heavy lifetapping. At the rate I went oom there, I doubt any replenishment effect will keep me in business without serious lifetapping.

If beta works again, I'll complete the last few thousand exp and run more tests with lvl 80 spells, but atm I can't say I am impressed with warlock dps. Although other classes are in similar situations. The only thing that went up a lot so far was tank dps, 80 prot warriors doing 1000 dps through instances while the top dps hovers around 1500-1600. I've not played with a rogue yet, but other classes were roughly on par. The two mages I played with did worse dps, survival hunters seemed to be better, I played with three, two were below but a third constantly outdamaged me slightly while his gear was worse, almost 0 SWP drops.

kunksmoor · 09/09/08, 11:38 AM

I tried about the same felguard spec at lvl 70-71 and eventually found destruction to be faster at the cost of losing the ability to solo most group quests. It only worked well at lower 70's though. Now at lvl 79, of course my crit is so much lower and mobs have more hp (considering my nukes aren't doing considerably more damage), that destro isn't really playing well anymore for levelling outside instances (apart form not having any quests until Storm Peaks opens).

I also tried affliction at some point, but it was just way too slow.

Bit early to decide levelling spec on live yet though, seeing as locks have lots of changes ahead still.

• Diameter · 09/09/08, 11:56 AM

I'm surprised affliction isn't the leveling spec of choice for wotlk. I thought with the imp's mana regen doubling as well as dark pact gaining twice the benefit that it would be impossible for you to run out of mana. Is dotting up several mobs and using Howl of Terror not viable? If everything is undead I could see your point but I'm not aware if that's the case or not. I'm currently leveling a warlock and having an awesome time as affliction killing 3-4 mobs at a time in outlands.

Chaley · 09/09/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Diameter

I'm surprised affliction isn't the leveling spec of choice for wotlk. I thought with the imp's mana regen doubling as well as dark pact gaining twice the benefit that it would be impossible for you to run out of mana. Is dotting up several mobs and using Howl of Terror not viable? If everything is undead I could see your point but I'm not aware if that's the case or not. I'm currently leveling a warlock and having an awesome time as affliction killing 3-4 mobs at a time in outlands.

I agree here. I'm surprised also. When I'm in my farming spec (40/0/21) I literally DoT 20+ mobs and kill them with Corr, Immo/CoA, and SL. Granted the 2 piece t6 bonus helps tremendously, but I still can't believe that affliction wouldn't be the build of choice for leveling. I actually pay people at times to loot for me due to my kill rate being so fast with affliction in TBC.

Sydane · 09/09/08, 1:12 PM

I think the choice to grind/level as affliction is less about power and more about playstyle. Personally I've never been particularly good at it (though I haven't done it a lot), and it plays worlds different than demo or destro in a solo environment. Also, early in the expansion in highly populated areas your ability to kill large amounts of mobs at once will be severely hindered, not to mention make you quite unpopular. So I think most people would agree that affliction is quite viable for leveling, but it doesn't mean we will choose to.

Xunwael · 09/09/08, 1:18 PM

I'm also sceptical as to how the felguard and master demonologist somehow makes up for shadow mastery, contagion, pandemic and everlasting affliction, not to mention full emp corruption and imp. coa.

With improved drain soul you can just, whenever you feel low on mana and you don't wanna life tap and your demon somehow doesn't have enough to repenish you, just stop chainpulling for 2 seconds and drain a few mobs for 1500+ mana per global cooldown. It's impossible to run out of mana as affliction on live, chainpulling mobs with most - killing most in 3 global cooldowns - and I see nothing but buffs in beta, how is it that demonology somehow manages to become superior?

At 70 you have enough talent points to get all current useful dps talents in affliction, and bane. Unless you're worried about getting ganked, there's no point in going to demonology.

Hearteater · 09/09/08, 1:24 PM

Another point to consider: Affliction grinding is general more dangerous on a PVP server as well. DOT up 20 mobs and you can find yourself on the wrong side of Hammer of Justice while 20 angery mobs vent their greavinces on your face.

cagadabr · 09/09/08, 3:24 PM

we will do some raids with the 3.0 new talents and what kind of build do you feel will be fine for we warlocks?

All my gear is concentred in shadow damage (sunwell gear) and seems like fire-destruction will be the raid spec . What do you think about it?

Troffel · 09/09/08, 3:31 PM

A long time ago, there were melee-warlocks with the firestones in the off-hand as a "serious" fun-spec.

Perhaps talent Metamorphosis is a way to get into this fun-spec as a really serious spec again.

The talent Metamorphosis have to be changed, that is is permanent, the pet does not disappear and all talents become melee-ranged. The main attack is then a melee attack.

It would be nice to have a very different play style for the warlock class: The cloth-melee.

Vagabond · 09/09/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

I think the choice to grind/level as affliction is less about power and more about playstyle. Personally I've never been particularly good at it (though I haven't done it a lot), and it plays worlds different than demo or destro in a solo environment. Also, early in the expansion in highly populated areas your ability to kill large amounts of mobs at once will be severely hindered, not to mention make you quite unpopular. So I think most people would agree that affliction is quite viable for leveling, but it doesn't mean we will choose to.

There is also another point: Regardless of what Blizzard is saying, their actions speak louder. End game 80 will be all about fire-destro due to all the same old gear scaling issues.

Better to level up as fire destro so that you find your grove there and can learn to play it in your sleep, than to fall in love with some other spec only to have to change it when you hit 80 and want to raid.

BeerBelly · 09/09/08, 6:04 PM

I hate to think we came to the point where people believe you should level with a raiding spec instead of the spec you love. I'm an all out affliction fan and honestly hope affliction becomes a competitive raid spec, since if it doesn't I see myself playing a DK instead :P

Darian_TruBlade · 09/09/08, 8:37 PM

Originally Posted by Vagabond

There is also another point: Regardless of what Blizzard is saying, their actions speak louder. End game 80 will be all about fire-destro due to all the same old gear scaling issues.

Better to level up as fire destro so that you find your grove there and can learn to play it in your sleep, than to fall in love with some other spec only to have to change it when you hit 80 and want to raid.

Pandemic speaks against your argument. In and of itself it doesn't wholly solve Affliction's scaling issues, but it does show clear action on Blizzard's part to address that problem. Additionally, Blizzard has noted several times in recent blue posts that tuning hasn't happened yet, and it'll probably be a little longer yet given the poison/BoK bugs drastically skewing numbers.

PSGarak · 09/09/08, 8:57 PM

Ghostcrawler got back with the Metamorphisis feedback:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Thanks for all the ideas and feedback.

While this is not final and could absolutely change, here is what we're thinking about for the new design:

You keep your pet.
You keep your spells.
It buffs spell damage (for that "blow your cooldowns" feel).
It buffs mitigation (you could even tank for a bit).
It provides the current snare reduction for PvP.
You'll still get a few fun demon abilities, but you can just use your normal spells if you'd rather.

So basically it's warlocks' first big cooldown.

dedmonwakeen · 09/09/08, 9:51 PM

When the Mage WotLK thread crossed 100 pages, Roywyn took the current state of the Beta Mage and created a new thread. Does the Warlock community have a similar advocate willing to keep an "original post" up to date?

dcpwns · 09/09/08, 10:22 PM

I did some test on the sewer guy in Dalarn. My dps was fairly low while i have pvp gear and no pve buffs I was a lil disappointed. My imps dps was fairly low even with both talents to up his dmg in destro and demon tree. My dps on diff tries was around 1700-1900. I went oom roughly around 2 mins even with imp souleech.My imps dps was around 170-230.Wasnt to impressed with with imps dmg but the buff he gives u through destro is nice.

Now I know all this is with pvp gear and im not upset about the numbers I found. Just seems the imp's dmg output is a lil low even though i didn't have any buffs cept CoE. Just thought I would toss up some numbers for the forum. Will do some more testing with better gear hopefully and other specs soon. All of these numbers are destro with the spec the warlock ran with in the naxx 25. Most rotations didn't matter much to be honest int he outcome of dmg it seemed.

PSGarak · 09/09/08, 10:29 PM

To be accurate, the mages started a new thread at 192, and they're up to 52 in the new one. For some reason mage threads tend to be exceptionally verbose, I can't figure out what it is about the class. Anyways... I don't think we're in a particular need of one at the moment. We've reached a point of relative stability, sitting on the new Pandemic and waiting for the Metamorphisis change.

The Imp's DPS is pretty buff-dependent, since he doesn't scale well with your gear. ToW is around three times more impactful to his DPS than to yours, and the 20% or so crit he can get from raid buffs will push him up rather considerably.

Smurrf · 09/09/08, 10:37 PM

Aye, probably too late for a new thread until after 3.0.2 comes out. Then, with all changes more or less finalized, someone who'll keep up the OP can post a new one with a distilled version of this thread.

• Maels · 09/10/08, 1:00 AM

Affliction is the leveling spec of choice.
Destro has ridiculous downtime (every 3 mobs), Demo is a sort of middle ground with very little buttons to press and Affliction is non-stop dot fest. Use a Felhunter with 2/2 Imp Felhunter. Use Dark Pact (returns around 4k mana at 70, 4.6k with level 80 gear, costs half as much to the Felhunter).