WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 108

Soulcaster · 09/14/08, 2:45 PM

my tests right now as being level 70, using level 70 ranks and this is for when the PTR patch comes to the live severs before Wrath goes live. Warlocks will be getting a nerf in that fact.

just one thing to remember Kaib, They are swaping the devistation and ruin talents, and also curroption will be doing 20% more damage, and whats the point of shooting any shadow bolts as a fire destro lock at 80?, you only have a 15% chance of increasing your fire damage. Also another bug with destro right now is backdraft is only using one spell. i am for seeing affliction getting back up there. but as it stands and level 70 when 3.0 comes out affliction will do more dps then destro because im telling you i never got that dam imp buff from my imp criting.
tried http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000
last ngiht as 70 on doom and the max you can pull out of it is about 1k dps in 70 gear and as 70

tried http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000 and you do about 1.1k dps as level 70 and in 70 gear

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000 is affliction and i pulled about 1.4k but i did spec into the bugged Ruin talent, i know they are switching ruin and devistation but im not sure if they are switching the number of talents needed for each or not, that is something we will have to find out.

unless they are buffing the imps crit rate i dont see that imp talent being that help full because i hardly saw mine crit at all.

Roywyn · 09/14/08, 3:39 PM

Bear in mind that you and your Imp are lacking 9% haste and 18% crit from raid buffs.
Particularly the crit difference will have a very noticable impact.

Quintessa · 09/14/08, 4:47 PM

I just did some Dr. Boom on PTR as 0/3/58 (kinda gimped Empowered Imp spec, minus Devastation->Ruin since it's disabled on the PTR). Using the standard Empowered Imp rotation I did 1420 DPS with only self buffs. Backdraft also seems to be bugged on the PTR, only affecting one cast instead of three. I could see with Ruin and full raid buffs it could be a decent spec in Sunwell.

This is the spec I used: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

Keep in mind Devastation->Ruin are disabled, I'm not sure what I would take points out of for when they are enabled after the change.

After a few more runs with the same spec I see fluctuations between 1300 and 1500 DPS with that spec.

Mogambu · 09/14/08, 6:00 PM

Backdraft also seems to be bugged on the PTR, only affecting one cast instead of three

I believe backdraft was changed to affect only the next spell cast in the balancing patch.

Quintessa · 09/14/08, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mogambu

I believe backdraft was changed to affect only the next spell cast in the balancing patch.

Do you have a blue post to support that? MMO-Champions beta build notes and talent calculator, and the in game tooltip still states, "next three Destruction spells", so I'm still assuming it's bugged.

I'd also assume if that is the case then the standard Empowered Imp rotation would be Immo/Incin, Conflag, Shadow Bolt x1, Immo/Incin, Conflag, etc.?

Krazen · 09/14/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Corruption is becoming instant base in the coming build, so the only reason to go Affliction at all is if you want to go 7 points in for Frailty. I think 0/21/50 will be left behind by 0/13/58, though, since with the latter you can grab Backdraft, Emp. Imp, and Imp. SL in addition to SnF. Even though those recieved nerfs recently, it still represents a LOT of damage.

Well, the new corruption talent is a flat damage boost.

Keep in mind that Shadow Priests are no longer consuming your ISB charges, and that 4t6 (particularly with the helm, thanks to lack of meta sockets on new helms) remains viable for quite some time.

There were a lot of nerfs to fire destro; 43 points in the tree gets you Imp SL, and you are not reliant on a pet.

I suppose you could get fire and brimstone and leave corruption out of your rotation.

Alefica · 09/15/08, 12:04 AM

For those on the PTR, what is the current wording on Everlasting Affliction? I've been using the mmo-champion talent calculator for the most part, and currently it's worded as:

"Your Corruption, Siphon Life and Unstable Affliction spells gain an additional 1/2/3/4/5% of your bonus spell damage effects each time they inflict damage, and your Drain Life and Shadow Bolt spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to reset the duration of your Corruption spell on the target."

Am I reading this right, or does this essentially mean that as long as we shadowbolt once in a 18 second window, Corruption will basically scale infinitely, or at least until the dot eventually becomes so big that we take aggro and die? I've heard no mention of it so far so I have a feeling this isn't the case, but it would be nice to have some sort of confirmation on this. The talent seems pretty bananas in its current state

Sayoz · 09/15/08, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Alefica

Am I reading this right, or does this essentially mean that as long as we shadowbolt once in a 18 second window, Corruption will basically scale infinitely, or at least until the dot eventually becomes so big that we take aggro and die? I've heard no mention of it so far so I have a feeling this isn't the case, but it would be nice to have some sort of confirmation on this. The talent seems pretty bananas in its current state

The current wording on Everlasting Affliction is misleading or plain wrong. On beta servers now it gives a flat coefficient boost to Corruption, Siphon Life, and Unstable Affliction equal to (# of times the dot spell ticks)*(points in Everlasting Affliction). So, Corruption gets an additional 30% (6 ticks * 5% Everlasting Affliction) bonus spell damage, Siphon Life gets an additional 50% (10 ticks), and Unstable Affliction gets 25% (5 ticks).

Fireye · 09/15/08, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by Alefica

For those on the PTR, what is the current wording on Everlasting Affliction? I've been using the mmo-champion talent calculator for the most part, and currently it's worded as:

"Your Corruption, Siphon Life and Unstable Affliction spells gain an additional 1/2/3/4/5% of your bonus spell damage effects each time they inflict damage, and your Drain Life and Shadow Bolt spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to reset the duration of your Corruption spell on the target."

Am I reading this right, or does this essentially mean that as long as we shadowbolt once in a 18 second window, Corruption will basically scale infinitely, or at least until the dot eventually becomes so big that we take aggro and die? I've heard no mention of it so far so I have a feeling this isn't the case, but it would be nice to have some sort of confirmation on this. The talent seems pretty bananas in its current state

I'm in the beta, so I can't speak to the PTR. Currently, Everlasting Affliction adds a flat % increase (I believe) to your corruption/siphon life/etc. I'm not entirely sure, and the data I got isn't exactly perfect. Here's the spec I used to test it, no crazy proc related damage increases except shadow embrace, which I made sure to keep up. No explanation for the somewhat odd results in some cases (one rank doing less than the prior rank), there's no resist/partial resist/absorb message coming from the training dummy.

Corruption:
0/5: 645
1/5: 665
2/5: 685
3/5: 706
4/5: 725
5/5: 745

Siphon Life:
0/5: 277
1/5: 296
2/5: 331
3/5: 335
4/5: 353
5/5: 372

Unstable Affliction:
0/5: ??? (Didn't think to test)
1/5: 640
2/5: 660
3/5: 678
4/5: 727
5/5: 717

Sayoz · 09/15/08, 3:14 AM

These numbers are consistent with what I posted above, with you losing Fel Armor before your 5/5 Unstable Affliction test.

Edit: your UA numbers at least, I didn't look at the others.

Scrufola · 09/15/08, 4:39 AM

The Abyss Shard has been changed to grant a passive 15 stamina bonus, but no longer removes the soul shard requirement from casting a voidwalker.

This is from the 3.0.2 patch notes. Are they going to change anything related to soul shards or why do they change this trinket? The trinket was never really useful so I don't think it's a balancing issue. Maybe they make soul shards stackable... even clams stack now.

Sephirah · 09/15/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Scrufola

This is from the 3.0.2 patch notes. Are they going to change anything related to soul shards or why do they change this trinket? The trinket was never really useful so I don't think it's a balancing issue. Maybe they make soul shards stackable... even clams stack now.

If they're making SS stackable, what's the point of Abyssal Bag?

Villeraz · 09/15/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sephirah

If they're making SS stackable, what's the point of Abyssal Bag?

It could be in the vein of making high-level characters less likely to hang onto low-level items; many warlocks justified taking the trinket since it was a free shard on a 30 minute cooldown. Now it is only a voidwalker with no mana cost, and 15 stamina.

Fireye · 09/15/08, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Sayoz

These numbers are consistent with what I posted above, with you losing Fel Armor before your 5/5 Unstable Affliction test.

Edit: your UA numbers at least, I didn't look at the others.

UA was done at the same time as Siphon Life and Corruption (to minimize on running back to the warlock trainer). I'll give it another go tonight, and keep a closer eye on my own buffs. I'm fairly sure I kept Fel Armor up the entire time, but I'm not 100% sure.

Mogambu · 09/15/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Quintessa

Do you have a blue post to support that? MMO-Champions beta build notes and talent calculator, and the in game tooltip still states, "next three Destruction spells", so I'm still assuming it's bugged.

I read that from a Wotlk.wiki.info post earlier

Backdraft - Now the cast time and mana cost of your next Destruction spell reduced by 10/20/30% instead of 10/20/30% spell haste for next 3 Destro spells.

Smurrf · 09/15/08, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sephirah

If they're making SS stackable, what's the point of Abyssal Bag?

Keep in mind, the previous poster only suggested that they *might* be making Soul Shards stack, not stating that it was indeed the case.

Nothiing has of yet been changed regarding actual Soul Shard mechanics (other than Glyph of Drain Soul) or storage functionality, nor has it been really mentioned by Blues.

Sydane · 09/15/08, 12:48 PM

I think it's safer to assume they'd get rid of Soul Shards completely rather than allow them to stack. The mechanic has been around and is too ingrained to drop it now, and stacking just saves you bag space, and we'll be gaining a bunch of bag slots thanks to the many changes they have made anyway. Soul Shards are here to stay, meaningless though they may be. The Abyss Shard nerf is a shame but they probably got tired of doing quest reward change requests from people who took the staff initially but want the trinket at 70.

I think the point of the Backdraft change is to make it decrease cast time rather than give haste, which is actually slightly more powerful, but doesn't work on the GCD. The number of charges should stay the same.

It seems unlikely we'll have 8 talent points in Affliction that do nothing but increase the damage Corruption does, I'd expect Empowered Corruption to either go away completely or change to something more dynamic.

There's never been an official announcement regarding the debuff cap, I think their hope is the combining of buffs will remove the need for having as many on the boss, and it serves as a balance so you don't bring a raid with 15 Death Knights. They've also changed a lot of things that once were debuffs into self buffs. My guess is it will stay at 40 or only go up slightly.

I'd still be shocked if the 18% crit from raid buffs makes it to live, it will make balancing caster dps exceptionally difficult, they will be too overpowered initially in 25 mans, or too weak in any situation where they didn't have all the buffs. I expect the mage buff to not stack with any of the others (in other words, you get 10% crit from the mage, or 8-10% crit total from other sources if you don't have a mage) or even become just a self buff.

Montegomery · 09/15/08, 1:48 PM

I spent a few hours last night trying Affliction on the PTR. It's my first serious shot at it, ever, so I'm quite inexperienced and in Destruction gear.

All world servers save Eastern Kingdoms on the PvE PTR went down last night, but I was fortunate enough to find a Ret Paladin wailing away at a Servant in the Badlands. He swore he'd keep going until he ran OOM, so I had plenty of time to try out the following spec (with no glyphs, the AH was down too):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

I found Affliction quite fun, but extremely challenging. Theoretically speaking the timers on Haunt, UA, Immo, SL and CoD line up such that you shouldn't have trouble keeping them consistently in the air with little downtime. Practically speaking I quickly lost control of the timing. I still managed to do significantly more DPS than I do on live as 0/21/40.

My inexperience did me no favors, but there were a few aspects of the playstyle that I felt were unintuitive hurdles.

1) Shadow Bolt. All of Affliction's DoTs and Haunt have the same cast time (effectively one GCD) making it easy to keep GCD use in sync. Shadow Bolt, our current filler, casts at 2.5 seconds unless Nightfall or the Glyph procs. This asynchronus nature made timing everything more difficult.

1b) Imp Shadow Bolt. It was difficult to keep this buff going consistently even in my Destruction gear. Shadow Bolt casts generally come in brief spurts of one or two. If neither crit you're simply out the buff until you've refreshed DoTs/Haunt.

2) Erradication. While I'm certain it was overall a DPS increase, it also made timing more difficult. I was already having difficulty timing DoTs using just the in-game UI, but throwing this in made it significantly harder to avoid collisions.

That said, these only made it difficult. My issues became less prevalent with practice and never were enough of a problem, even with my inexperience, to cause me to do less DPS than I do on Live. Even with my issues it was fun and engaging. I expect that with a proper DoT timing addon it would have been significantly easier.

At the same time I was extremely impressed with Affliction's longevity. Without any raid buffs of any kind, or using potions, I was able to DPS in excess of 5 minutes at a time before going OOM. This is despite the fact that SL was not returning health (as the Servant had none left to return) and that I only took 1 of 2 points in Imp Felhunter. As 0/21/40 on live the best I can manage is half that after sacrificing the Felhunter.

SRneo · 09/15/08, 2:04 PM

I hate to interrupt the which spec provides the highest DPS discussion, but I haven't been able to find anything concerning the BEST professions for Warlocks to take up in WotLK. Which two professions are best to help boost DPS? Inscription and Enchanting since Tailoring eventually dies down?

Thoughts?

bladehawk · 09/15/08, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by SRneo

I hate to interrupt the which spec provides the highest DPS discussion, but I haven't been able to find anything concerning professions in WotLK. Which two professions are best? I've been hearing inscription and enchanting because tailoring eventually dies down...

Any thoughts?

I think that would really be an item for a separate thread unless you have something specific to warlocks you want to bring up.

Sayoz · 09/15/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fireye

UA was done at the same time as Siphon Life and Corruption (to minimize on running back to the warlock trainer). I'll give it another go tonight, and keep a closer eye on my own buffs. I'm fairly sure I kept Fel Armor up the entire time, but I'm not 100% sure.

These are the numbers I got on my tests that led me to those spell coefficients.

On a boss level target dummy in Stormwind:

I am level 70. Spec used: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (no talents that increase the damage of Corruption or Siphon Life).

Corruption and Siphon Life tests:

Base damage of Corruption: 900
Base damage of Siphon Life: 630
My +shadow damage (consistent through entire testing period): 1534

0/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 389 + 389 + 390 + 389 + 389 +389 = 2335 - 900 = 1435/1534 = 0.935 (consistent with the base spellpower coefficient that we already knew for Corruption)

Siphon Life: 216 + 217 + 216 + 216 + 216 + 216 + 216 + 216 + 217 + 217 = 2163 - 630 = 1533/1534 = 0.999 (consistent with the base spellpower coefficeint that we already knew for Siphon Life)

1/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 404 + 405 + 405 + 405 + 405 + 404 = 2428 - 900 = 1528/1534 = 0.996
Siphon Life: 231 + 232 + 231 + 232 + 232 + 231 + 232 + 232 + 231 + 232 = 2316 - 630 = 1686/1534 = 1.099

2/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 420 + 420 + 420 + 420 + 420 + 420 = 2520 - 900 = 1620/1534 = 1.056
Siphon Life: 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 + 247 = 2470 - 630 = 1840/1534 = 1.199

3/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 436 + 435 + 435 + 435 + 436 + 435 = 2612 - 900 = 1712/1534 = 1.116
Siphon Life: 262 + 263 + 262 + 262 + 262 + 263 + 263 + 263 +262 + 262 = 2624 - 630 = 1994/1534 = 1.299

4/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 451 + 451 + 451 + 450 + 450 + 451 = 2704 - 900 = 1804/1534 = 1.176
Siphon Life: 277 + 277 + 278 + 278 + 278 + 277 + 277 + 278 + 278 + 278 = 2786 - 630 = 2156/1534 = 1.405

5/5 Everlasting Affliction

Corruption: 466 + 466 + 466 + 466 + 466 + 466 = 2796 - 900 = 1896/1534 = 1.235
Siphon Life: 293 + 293 + 293 + 294 + 293 + 293 + 293 + 293 + 293 + 293 = 2931 - 630 = 2301/1534 = 1.500

Unstable Affliction tests:

Changed spec to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for the UA trials.
Unstable Affliction (Rank 3) base damage: 875.
My +shadow damage (consistent through entire testing period): 1534

0/5 Everlasting Affliction
Unstable Affliction: 482 + 482 + 481 + 481 + 482 = 2408 - 875 = 1533/1534 = 0.999

1/5 Everlasting Affliction

Unstable Affliction: 497 + 497 + 497 + 498 + 497 = 2486 - 875 = 1611/1534 = 1.050

2/5 Everlasting Affliction

Unstable Affliction: 512 + 512 + 513 + 512 + 512 = 2561 - 875 = 1686/1534 = 1.099

3/5 Everlasting Affliction

Unstable Affliction: 528 + 528 + 527 + 528 + 528 = 2639 - 875 = 1764/1534 = 1.149

4/5 Everlasting Affliction

Unstable Affliction: 543 + 543 + 543 + 544 + 543 = 2716 - 875 = 1841/1534 = 1.200

5/5 Everlasting Affliction

Unstable Affliction: 558 + 558 + 559 + 559 + 559 = 2793 - 875 = 1918/1534 = 1.250

Results

      0/5     1/5    2/5    3/5    4/5    5/5
Corr: 0.935  0.996  1.056  1.116  1.176  1.235 (6% coefficient boost per point)
SL  : 0.999  1.099  1.199  1.299  1.405  1.500 (10% coefficient boost per point)
UA  : 0.999  1.050  1.099  1.149  1.200  1.250 (5% coefficient boost per point)

CKaz · 09/15/08, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

The Abyss Shard nerf is a shame but they probably got tired of doing quest reward change requests from people who took the staff initially but want the trinket at 70.

What they should do now then is give everyone the staff who wasted it on this shard now.
And if not, hopefully they'll be innundated with spam requests to do so

Just a shame they took a rare-use, certainly not OP item with some flavor, and clipped its nuts.
Yay dull and grey. Can't wait to start stacking spirit... =b

Nacht · 09/15/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by supplicium

Addon request: Ok So after dealing with a silly silly amount of dots that I was putting out, as well as self buffs I was giving my self, and trying to track corruptions up time w/o waisting a GCD/mana, Im really really looking for a good warlock addon to get all these things in 1 place. I'm currently using Forte lock in live, and was wondering if it has any plans to be updated, warlocks are definitely one of the most addon dependent people in the game do to dots, so a good addon is worth it's wait in gold to me.

I still prefer DoTimer above all others.

manly · 09/15/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by SRneo

I hate to interrupt the which spec provides the highest DPS discussion, but I haven't been able to find anything concerning the BEST professions for Warlocks to take up in WotLK. Which two professions are best to help boost DPS? Inscription and Enchanting since Tailoring eventually dies down?

Thoughts?

Enchanting gives 2x +23 dmg.

Blacksmithing gives 2 sockets, which at best will give 2x +23 dmg (using epic gem)

Leatherworking gives +50 dmg as well as drums.

Tailoring is just as garbage as ever. You get a new cloak enchant that barely beats the 20 haste enchant. Then I am unsure about the leg enchant if it is profession bound or not. Currently apparently all the tailoring leg enchants are BOP. I haven't tried to see if you can enchant other peoples leggings in a trade window.

Engineering gives a glove enchant that serves as a cooldown. Unfortunately, as far as I know its mutually exclusive with the regular +28 spell damage enchant, which makes it quite bad.

Jewelcrafting gives one profession-bound gem, which is about just as bad as it was in TBC profession-perk-wise. 1x +32 spell damage profession-bound gem, from 23 dmg non-profession-bound. You also get 1x +27 haste, 1x +27 hit and 1x +27 crit over +20/+20/+20 if you think you will need those gems.

Alchemy gives slightly better benefit from potions/elixirs/flasks. From what I have read it was something rather underwhelming, considerably below 46 dmg.

Inscription is as bad as ever. At least it is for mages. Its already somewhat a stretch to get a good use out of 3 glyphs, I am unsure what a 4th one would bring extra.

Skinning gives 25 crit rating.

Fulgurite · 09/15/08, 5:27 PM

I just did some Destro DPS testing on Dr. Boom:

7/21/43
1812 spell power
181 spirit
15000 max mana
19% crit in char sheet.
7.5% hit
0% haste
Buffs: Fel Armor, Touch of Shadow
Debuffs: Curse of Elements (10% and 13%)
No Devastation or Ruin (bugged on Beta).
I was in the full premade character gear, which is 5/5 Blue PVP gear, and lots of other PVP gear offset pieces.

Pure shadowbolt spam:
1700-1800 DPS with no life taps. OOM in 60 seconds.
(Got lucky I think, 25% crit)

Immolate with 5/5 Imp. Immo, 5/5 Emberstorm, Molten Core, and 0/5 Fire and Brimstone:
4500 damage (1500 initial, 5 ticks of 600 damage).
Shadowbolt with 5/5 ISB, 5/5 SnF, Demonic Sacrifice:
4000 non-crit average, 5700 average crit.

(given 30% crit and a 7400 average crit total, that's a 5000 average hit)
(Doing the same thing to immolate gives 4950 average total)

Haste and crit favor shadowbolt more and more, I'd think.

Test 2:
Grouped with Aff lock. Only got Fel Intelligence, giving me 1837 instead of 1812 damage.
(FI gave 15 more mana on Imp. SL procs. I used my own CoE.)
Life tap used, pure shadowbolt spam 1400-1500 DPS.
Dr. Boom died in 192 seconds (there was a druid attacking him too).
102 shadowbolts, average non-crit 3800, average crit 5500. (Got really unlucky, 15% crit.)
414,421 total damage.

-------

Going to class now, but one thing I'd like to point out is my health. Lifetaps with 7 aff (+20%) and 181 spirit were hitting for 2400 mana. Imp. SL procs were 300 mana, average 800 health. Fel Armor was 407 health per tick.

I was lifetapping about every 5th shadowbolt (Shadowbolt rank 13 is 635 mana, 694-775 damage). The imp. SL procs were recovering enough mana to do at least 5 shadowbolts. not 4.

The Soul Leech and Fel armor procs together kept my health up the entire time. I didn't get any heals, but my health wasn't noticeably low.

Here's some numbers:
Life tap 56,000 mana (23 life taps in 192 seconds, over 102 shadowbolts)
Imp. SL 6,600 mana
(Over the course of 192 seconds.)

-------

I'm going to do some comparison testing with different specs later today, hopefully. It's really unfortunate that a key talent like Ruin is broken though.

I didn't do dummy testing because Dalaran lags really bad because of the number of players. Netherstorm is amazingly fast compared to Dalaran.