Are there any other random buffs it would pick up?
If by "immunity shield" they mean things like being fire-immune, magic-immune, etc, then Chaos Bolt will bypass them just by stint of being whichever school it needs to be, unless the target is immune to everything (paladin). That would require extra programming, as would absorb effects. It also makes me wonder if it suffers AC reduction on a magic-immune target. That will take some ingenuity to test.
As already mentioned upthread it should benefit from DKs 5% frost debuff, somebody in beta should be able to verify that easily.
For the magic absorption test, the Banshees from Hyjal trash waves come to mind. Is there anything that is more easily accessible for testing? The only other normal mob I seem to remember are the Nether Drakes from Blade's Edge who have very high magic resistance but holy damage is already bypassing that.
I think armor-based mitigation is separate flag, as we know physical DOTs don't suffer from it, and there were cases of non-physical damage being mitigated by armor (Improved Drain Mana Shadow damage was for quite some time in past). Also if I recall correctly MotW was adding Holy resistance too, and probably still is, so possibly physicall immune target buffed with MotW (BoP + MotW, or even HoP + MotW with new naming) may have real resistances against Chaos Bolt. The mechanic may just take best in each category (which would end up in 0 resistance, or even negative if mob has innate negative resistance to any school), which can also explain why people observed no "misses", it may simply be unable to miss as both physical and magical at the same time, resulting in no misses at all.
Nightfall gives me headaches when min/maxing dps for sure. This is my problem:
As full affliction + ruin (54/0/15 + 2) I have a little trouble fitting the last 2 points in. Namely because there's four glyphs really beneficial to the damage output of this spec;
Glyph of Corruption, glyph of Agony, glyph of Immolate, and glyph of Siphon life. However, I heard that the first of these glyphs and nightfall are mutually exclusive. Which leads to a major problem.
The last two are very good for DPS reasons, so those are a bit of a no-brainer, but I don't have a clue whether I should take Corruption or Agony. When taking Corruption, nightfall becomes obsolete, which frees up two talents in my specialization. I could either fill out Eradication (1.6% more spell haste), or go for Destructive reach.
Sidenote: Eradication == gives you +2.4%/+3.3%/+4.0% spell haste overall. Trinkets improve it's performance insignificantly.
There's a tiny problem with taking the glyph of Corruption, and that is that in some raids, i'll probably be expected to use Curse of Agony, since Elements does not stack with, for example, the moonkin buff which does not require the moonkin to sacrifice some of his damage output at all. It's just that there won't be a moonkin in every raid. So in raids with a moonkin, i'm not performing at 100% when I take the glyph of corruption. So i'd need the glyph of corruption for those raids and give up grim reach for nightfall, like this:
By sacrificing range however, I render part of the destruction talent DR useless. So I could not take that talent when my shadowbolts and immolate are only a small part of my DPS, which turns out to be likely because of all the new buffs to affliction spells, and take an extra 1.6% spell haste.
Instead, it's also possible to take intensity, which would also be a dps increase in certain situations. But it's not possible to take both Intensity and DR without sacrificing a lot of DPS, so an intensity spec would always not have the affliction reach talent, which automatically means it has to take nightfall. Note that not taking nightfall is not an option as you'd have too few points to reach the higher tiers. Thus 3/3 eradication is also out of the question;
But when I am using CoE in a raid, this spec means that my range is less than it should be, it could have been 20% more without sacrificing any damage output. (Improved CoA is a filler talent, thank the heavens.) So, when using CoE, the spec should be:
And of course a Corruption glyph instead of a Curse of agony glyph.
I'm also unsure about taking dark pact or not, whether or not it will be more efficient than tapping to regain mana (it should be). So basically I'm encountering a bit of a problem when min/maxing that each of the five specializations is a minimized/maximized one, but only in a certain situation. That makes me quite unsure of what to do to perform best.
Could anyone enlighten me to this apparently unsolveable issue of: 'Which of the four specs is better in a dps situation'? It seems that no matter how I look at it, all the four variants aren't perfect. What would be even better if someone were to prove me wrong. Then I'd be relieved that there isn't this mindbending problem.
Edit 1: I forgot a link, it should be five diffrent specializations. (gasp)
Thought i'd post my thoughts here as a true affliction fan.
Note: i'm not on beta, and the 2000+ queues for ptr are also a bitch.
I see everybody skipping the talent Soul Siphon. Why? There was some speculation about the Drain soul and 4x damage multiplier under 20%. This talent now also effects Drain soul. How does this affect each other? would the combination of affliction affects on the target + different mulltipliers put drain soul over Shadowbolt dps? ( below 20%? )
Is lifetaps mana regain actually outscaling dark pact now? because this would destroy the use of dark pact. So i'm hoping dark pact will always be better. How is the mana regeneration of the felhunter with and without the improved felhunter talent?
And another thing i've been wondering: Fel intelligence
It is said to give both spirit and intellect. But both in lesser extend then divine spirit and arcane intellect.
So if you have either of these buffs does the entire effect get cancelled? As in: if you get a mage buff, will you also lose the spirit effect from fel intelligence?
Because if it doesn't, this effect is slightly more usefull, especially on 10 mans I dont see every group having a disc.Priest. (while i still think groups without mages will be rare)
The new malediction, what are we looking at here? 3% extra spelldamage. (on top of previous effect) Spellpower levels of? 2000? 3000? assume the latter. the talent will give an additional 90 spelldamage. on top of the 13% extra spelldamage.
2 points:
1:
Will this extra put your damage over the use of CoA? (counting for yourself alone, assuming there is either a moonkin or a DK bringing the 13% damage effect)
2: how does this compare to eradication in terms of dps?
Because at this point i believe that maxing out CoA and Eradication will provide higher dps then the use of Malediction (if you can be sure of the fact someone else brings the 13% increase damage effect.)
This is assuming the improved felhunter talent + dark pact is actually more beneficial then lifetapping.
This would also solve your problems with the Glyphs:
CoA for sure. Siphon Life for sure.
If what you say is true: (corruption glyph not co-existing with nightfall) then take the immolate glyph.
However. If the felhunter talent + dark pact doesnt work out:
you can use these points to max out life tap and relocate the points to grim reach and destructive reach: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000
This ofc means more problems witht he glyphs, since now you can pick up the corruption once as well.
And I seem to be one of few that has the opinion that its worthless to have only one of those talents? (grim reach and destructive reach) Either you take both, or you take none?
...There was some speculation about the Drain soul and 4x damage multiplier under 20%. This talent now also effects Drain soul. How does this affect each other? would the combination of affliction affects on the target + different mulltipliers put drain soul over Shadowbolt dps? ( below 20%? )
That was actually something I recognized on the PTR. I did not take a screenshot, but it happened two times that drain soul ticked for over 3000 (which included ~2800 "overnuking"). I was not able to properly reproduce it on other mobs or some instance boss. So I accounted it to be an PTR bug. I will try to do more tests later today. Is there anybody experiencing similar things?
To try to answer a part of your Malediction-Question Gothca:
You do not gain 3% Spell Power from skilling this talent right now. Reading the tooltip two dozen times I assume it as a bug, too. In my point of view those 3% are (taking the huge affliction-multipliers into account) are huge. Erradication is very nice, too - by choosing a spec like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000
you could have both.
I still have a question for the time between the 3.02 Patch and the WotLK-addon:
Changing my builds many times on the PTR the good old ill-reputed 40/0/21 build came into my mind. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000
some thoughts behind:
- No contagiation, because it would only affect Corruption and not my curse (I don't expect Moonkins to lose their "stigma" that fast that I would see one in our raid pre WotLK so -> CoE)
- 2/2 Shadowbite plus Darc Pact would keep my mana up without wasting soo many gcd's on life tap (on the PTR I got ~1180 mana per life tap)
- Nice Haste-Buff through Erradication.
Could this Specc finally be viable in raids (though it would only be for a few weeks)?
This is my first post on this nice Forum. I apologize for my bad English and hopefully I did not violate your Forum-rules .
And I seem to be one of few that has the opinion that its worthless to have only one of those talents? (grim reach and destructive reach) Either you take both, or you take none?
Actually, I agree with that for 50%.
It's worthless to only take Grim reach, as your shadowbolts will still be 30 yards and that's your main spam spell.
It is of some use to only take destructive reach, as it reduces your threat by 10% as well. A 10% threat reduction will gain you 11.1% more effective DPS from the destruction part of your dps in a capped situation.
By the way, Eradication, increases your spell haste by 2.4% for the first point, 0.9% for the second, and 0.7% for the first. Calculation: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Talent Review: Eradication. (Note: Lots of math). But affliction only really raises it's damage output from its shadowbolts as haste, plus a minor amount for dots. So 1% haste will more likely be about half that to your damage. I do believe +1% spell damage is going to be more useful than +0.45% global damage (i.e. your spell damage bonus to a spell is more than the spell's base damage now already, so +0.5% global damage is already less than +1% spell damage, so, after 1 point, Malediction > Eradication, assuming the +1% spell damage is true, and since CoE is mutually exclusive with moonkins. I presume it is, for a talent giving you zero benefit would be a first.
One thing to denote is that neither Suppression nor Cataclysm will cover Soulshatter. So it might be more interesting to spend your points on other talents (Destructive reach, Grim reach, Contagion, and Improved CoA come to mind). Note that felhunters don't have phase shift, so raiding with a felhunter becomes a lot trickier than without one. Without the demo talents, you're kind of forced into using the Demonology raiding items from the Tier 5 content. And; UA > Devastation in a raiding environment. (Tests show UA to be an average 15% damage increase, depending a bit on gear and such. Devastation will at most be 5%, and in your situation, with less than 100% damage from bolts, closer to 3%). You'd have to take contagion as well instead of Malediction/Improved Felhunter / 1/3 eradication instead of 3/3, but even the sum of these don't equal UA. It's boring but that's the way it is. I do applaud at more original talent ideas, it's just that a new version of SM/Ruin is the way to go (UA/Ruin) and not SM/Devastation.
Edit: I seem to have grown used too much to the simple calculations of 0/21/40.
edit: its a spell with a physical flag: i wonder if it will lock out auto attack >.> (if counterspelled) or would it be completely immune to lock out, like throwing a grenade?
Currently, if chaos bolt gets counter spelled/kicked/spell locked both fire & shadow trees get locked out. I also remember reading on the beta forums that if either of the schools (fire/shadow) are locked out then chaos bolt cannot be cast.
Edit: Will test out the latter on beta to confirm.
Actually, I agree with that for 50%.
It's worthless to only take Grim reach, as your shadowbolts will still be 30 yards and that's your main spam spell.
It is of some use to only take destructive reach, as it reduces your threat by 10% as well. A 10% threat reduction will gain you 11.1% more effective DPS in a capped situation.
Not true. Destructive reach will only reduce your threat from SB, and SB will only be a % of your dps as deep affliction. So ~5% more dps before your threat capped which probably won't be an issue given the massive buff to warrior dps/threat.
Some testing done on the PTR for Fire and Brimstone. Since I would like to know how the 15% +dmg is added and which (if any) coefficient its applied to.
My gear had 1391 Fire dmg, no other buffs were used.
So on normal hits it averaged 75dmg(58+17) per point and for criticals 140dmg(123+17) per point with exception to 1/5 which seems to be bugged as I got no increase on the dot portion at all (several respecs.) It is interesting to note that between 0/5 and 5/5 the dot damage was only increased by 67 and was not changed at all between 0/5 and 1/5.
I cant quite pin point the number I was looking for and the returns I am seeing dont seem to be possible with 20% coefficient on the direct dmg portion and 65% coefficient on the DoT. Fully talented I saw an increase of about 360 total damage to Immolate though 15% of my fire dmg should be ~209 which implies that more than 15% is being added, in fact it looks closer to the origional 25%(assuming 100% coefficient).
Unless my sources are wrong for Immolates coefficients (wowwiki has DD at 20% and Dot at 65%), you should have seen a significanlty larger increase on the dot portion, however you see the opposite. This is good since it means the talent scales better with crit, however I am still not sure I have figure anything out in terms of how your +dmg is applied against it.
Perhaps its funky wording yet on the talent or perhaps Emberstorm/Imp Immolate effect the scaling, but it doesnt seem to apply 15% of your +dmg at all. If any of you can make light of it from these numbers please let me know.
Regarding Malediction: I read the talent as increasing the damage dealt by all your spells by 3%, nothing to do with the spellpower statistic. I really don't know why you people are expecting a spellpower increase. I'll be back in a few minutes with some testing.
EDIT: Confirmed. Three points in malediction made corruption jump from 549 to 565 per tick, and immolate jump from 561-2 to 578 initial damage. 3% of 561-2 is 16.8 or so, within expectation. 3% of 549 is 16.5, 565 is within expectation. Working As Intended. Also of note: this is strictly superior to 3% spellpower, since it's exactly equal to 3% spellpower plus 3% base damage.
Hm, I guess you were level 70, used Rank IX Immolate and had Improved Immolate and Emberstorm specced?
Otherwise I'm having issues interpreting your numbers at all.
Also, there was some talk that Imp. Immo and Emberstorn are additive, not multiplicative?
I assumed additive for now because the numbers look better that way.
1) Immolate DD seems to have 20% scaling, and F+B adds 15% to make it 35%.
You'd gain 1391*15%*(1+30%+10%) = 292 damage. Exactly what's happening.
2) Immolate DoT, uh, uhm. Doesn't make sense, and the first point is obviously bugged.
Fully talented if the first tick worked, it would add about 1.1% spell damage to each tick if specced 5/5.
Not making sense really.
Originally Posted by Akj
Currently, if chaos bolt gets counter spelled/kicked/spell locked both fire & shadow trees get locked out. I also remember reading on the beta forums that if either of the schools (fire/shadow) are locked out then chaos bolt cannot be cast.
Edit: Will test out the latter on beta to confirm.
Frostfire Bolt works exactly that way with fire and frost spell school lockout.
Thank you, from that I can see that Chaos Bolt school is 0x7F (Physical+Holy+Fire+Nature+Frost+Shadow+Arcane = All). So Chaos is vastly superior version of Frostfire. So it should be affected by Improved Shadow Bolt, Emberstorm, both benefit from and proc Molten Core and all cool stuff you can think about.
Interesting, Physical too. That would mean it is affected by physical damage debuffs(only percentage ones presumably). Blood Frenzy and the rogue equivalent are the only ones i can come up with on the top of my head.
As for dark pact vs lifetap. Dark Pact is (currently) still scaled with spell damage, and lifetap has moved to spirit. So for level 70 gear (i dont know for sure about the levels of spirit on level 80 gear, or the lifetap scaling) Dark Pact will return significantly more mana than lifetap.
Hm, I guess you were level 70, used Rank IX Immolate and had Improved Immolate and Emberstorm specced? Otherwise I'm having issues interpreting your numbers at all.
Also, there was some talk that Imp. Immo and Emberstorn are additive, not multiplicative?
I assumed additive for now because the numbers look better that way.
1) Immolate DD seems to have 20% scaling, and F+B adds 15% to make it 35%.
You'd gain 1391*15%*(1+30%+10%) = 292 damage. Exactly what's happening.
2) Immolate DoT, uh, uhm. Doesn't make sense, and the first point is obviously bugged.
Fully talented if the first tick worked, it would add about 1.1% spell damage to each tick if specced 5/5.
Not making sense really.
Thanks Roywyn
Yes, I am Level 70 and was using rank 9 Immolate. I should probably do the test again with slush points in lower tier so that I can reach F&B without any points in Emberstorm or Imp Immolate to see more direct results. I guess how it scales with those talents is important though as nobody would be specced into F&B and not Emberstorm or Imp Immolate.
So 15% added to the current 20% coefficient. Thats almost doubling its scaling with +dmg, not bad at all.
Although unless I am failing at understanding how its applied, we should still be seeing a significatly larger increase on the DoT portion.
By the way, Eradication, increases your spell haste by 2.4% for the first point, 0.9% for the second, and 0.7% for the first. Calculation: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Talent Review: Eradication. (Note: Lots of math).
Shouldn't the following be P(36) = (1 - P(33)) * 0.04? /headache figuring out where the 1 comes from.
P(36) = 1 - (1 - P(33)) * 0.04
Anyway, an alternate, equivalent, and hopefully simpler calculation that verifies Aphid's result and maybe extends it slightly:
n = number of corr ticks until erad procs again
p = erad proc chance.
E = expectation value
Result: the (1st, 2nd, 3rd) talent point increases haste by an additional (3.48%, 0.93%, 0.60%) instead.
To anchor these numbers more, for lvl 80 affliction 1% spell haste is worth about (0.50%, 0.56%) dps if you spend (0%, 23%) of your time lifetapping, according to some spreadsheet.
Corrections?
====
It seems like the truly correct way to get the Eradication fraction uptime is to do
lim_{m->inf} E[12m / (30m + 3*(n_1 + n_2 + ... + n_m) - 3m)]
where n_i are random vars like n above. If anyone knows how to simplify this, PM me or email me procrastinator1248_at_gmail :P
Last edited by nom : 09/22/08 at 12:54 AM.
Reason: 15%-->23%, clarifications, added last part, typo 0.65%->0.56%
Yes, I am Level 70 and was using rank 9 Immolate. I should probably do the test again with slush points in lower tier so that I can reach F&B without any points in Emberstorm or Imp Immolate to see more direct results. I guess how it scales with those talents is important though as nobody would be specced into F&B and not Emberstorm or Imp Immolate.
So 15% added to the current 20% coefficient. Thats almost doubling its scaling with +dmg, not bad at all.
Although unless I am failing at understanding how its applied, we should still be seeing a significatly larger increase on the DoT portion.
Yeah, you will of course have those damage talents when speccing properly.
But when we want to find out how a talent actually works, the best way is testing in a clean environment.
No damage talents, no procs, no buffs, no zone buff, not set bonus, no mob debuffs.
This is particularly important when some of the base assumption are not 100% clear (Immolate coefficient, Imp.Immo/Ember).
It also rules out buggy spell interaction.
If you want another shot at the DoT scaling, you could you repeat that without damage talents and also note what the Immolate tooltip damage is.
Wowhead has it listed at level 69, it should go up a little at level 70.
Although unless I am failing at understanding how its applied, we should still be seeing a significatly larger increase on the DoT portion.
The wording of Fire and Brimstone is such that Immolate total DD+DOT coefficient should go up by 0.15, that is from normal 0.2+0.65=0.85 to 1. Changing DD coefficient from 0.2 to 0.35 is completely enough for the current wording.
I was toying around a bit with specs, and I think I found Shadow Destro's new coming. 20/0/48 +3 is the arrangement, you take the Corruption, range, and threat talents from Affliction and head down the Destruction tree. Plays with the imp out (I use my 3 on Improved Imp in Demo) via Empowered Imp, much like the other destro buids. Keep refreshing corruption, since it's worth the GCD (and Nightfall = sexy in Destro builds), lay your curse and fire away.
I'm not on the beta to be able to test this, so it's purely theoretical at the moment. Any thoughts or people willing to give it a spin on a training dummy?
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
I was toying around a bit with specs, and I think I found Shadow Destro's new coming. 20/0/48 +3 is the arrangement, you take the Corruption, range, and threat talents from Affliction and head down the Destruction tree. Plays with the imp out (I use my 3 on Improved Imp in Demo) via Empowered Imp, much like the other destro buids. Keep refreshing corruption, since it's worth the GCD (and Nightfall = sexy in Destro builds), lay your curse and fire away.
I'm not on the beta to be able to test this, so it's purely theoretical at the moment. Any thoughts or people willing to give it a spin on a training dummy?
Wouldn't 22/3/46, taking the points out of aftermath and putting them into grim reach be better?
This much, at least, appears to be fixed on the PTR. I was getting the buff last night.
I'm getting the buff now too, from firebolt, shadowbite, and lash of pain crits. Cleave crits are not granting me the buff still, it seems like only magic related stuff is working. I had already submitted feedback for it, I'm sure they've a lot to do, so I'm not worried about it.
Immolate aura in metamorphosis is acting quirky too, but maybe it was like this in beta, or even intended. When I activate the aura, I lose the ~1600 mana for the cost of the spell, and again for every pulse until I have less than the required mana left. While the buff duration lasts the full 15s, it stops dealing damage after I'm oom. Any beta/ptr testers know anything more?
Wouldn't 22/3/46, taking the points out of aftermath and putting them into grim reach be better?
Turns out to be possible with one of the points, but the other one has to stay due to point progression constraints (tiers 5 and 6 have 4 points used between them). The point HAS to go into tier 6 or lower, which means Emberstorm or Imp. Scorch if not Aftermath, so I chose the point that at least benefits Shadowbolt.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
Turns out to be possible with one of the points, but the other one has to stay due to point progression constraints (tiers 5 and 6 have 4 points used between them). The point HAS to go into tier 6 or lower, which means Emberstorm or Imp. Scorch if not Aftermath, so I chose the point that at least benefits Shadowbolt.
09/21/08, 6:35 AM
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