WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 121

Harne · 09/24/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I'm not sure what they're saying with this one. It looks like Backdraft is now 2 talents for 20% reduction instead of 3 for 30%, but this isn't reflected in their calculator. The "Old" doesn't help but confuse the matter further, nor does the presence of such wonderful chances as "Sunder Armor now lasts until cancelled".

If Backdraft has been nerfed, will it still be useable in our rotations? I've been under the impression that the difference between Backdraft and non-Backdraft DPS was notable but not amazing.

It might just be referring to ranks 1 & 2 of the talent. If the wowhead talent calculator matches the in game tooltip for that talent, all three ranks say the exact same thing, making it pointless to even spend more than one point in the talent if it worked as advertised. Getting only a 10% or 20% cast reduction from the first two points would make sense.

Byram · 09/24/08, 6:09 PM

As for Everlasting Affliction, does the corruption timer reset from drain life when the debuff appears (when you cast), or when the first tick hits?
Thanks

Copola · 09/24/08, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by BeerBelly

In my opinion you'd be better off starting with UA and then Corruption since that way they'd end up on the target at the same time.

haha ya sorry totally forgot about that. It was 2 am when I thought of doing UA first, so slipped my mind here.

Amonette · 09/24/08, 7:22 PM

Seems like with another nerf to ISB that Haunt -should- be the main nuke for affliction. The 200% healing buff is a great start, perhaps a lowering of the cooldown and a lengthening of it's duration would be in order.

Based on what I have read here it seems like Aff and Fire Destro are the two leading specs for pve purposes.

Trickykid · 09/24/08, 9:02 PM

Starting some preliminary models on this (which are pretty useless right now with the relatively large changes that are still going on). I haven't included CB, LT or Corruption in it yet, since so far it's always just worth casting CB when it comes up (will check on the "waiting for backdraft" question, but the DPCT is so much better I doubt it's worth wasting the CD) and corruption (if it's worth casting) should technically benefit all the spells the same (via MC). Life tap could matter since immolate has a higher DPCT, but I don't know how large a swing it'll make.

For what it's worth, the DPCT on SB is so low I haven't even modeled it out yet since even with "ideal" circumstances (Backdraft, ISB and no MC) it's worse DPCT than incinerate without immolate up. I'll add more to see if the 15% MC proc makes up for it... but my prelim guess is no. More to come!

ANYWAY, I graphed out 3 "rotations" without those spells that should mostly contribute the same to each.

I have one with 2k SP, 40% crit and 20% haste, another with 5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste to show SP scaling in favor of one of the cycles, and then a third 3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste to show larger crit/haste. Once I make things a bit more sophisticated I will check how everything scales with those stats to see if there are breaking points.
2k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste

So basically without CB (which shouldn't affect much since it just replaces an incinerate) and life tap (which could hurt the immolate during backdraft more), "ignoring" the backdraft and maintaining the cycle is superior. Incinerating during backdraft scales better though, so with lots of haste/crit it could be better.

novasphere · 09/24/08, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by Amonette

Based on what I have read here it seems like Aff and Fire Destro are the two leading specs for pve purposes.

That's really because very few people in this thread ever talk about a heavy Demonology Spec, since most of them are coming from either 0/21/40 raid specs or some kind of Affliction spec. I'm personally not really capable of making any kind of mathematical contributions toward Demonology raiding, and it's difficult to do so since it's hard to theorycraft the proper management and survivability of a Felguard with pure numbers. :p

Catiff · 09/24/08, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

ANYWAY, I graphed out 3 "rotations" without those spells that should mostly contribute the same to each.

I have one with 2k SP, 40% crit and 20% haste, another with 5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste to show SP scaling in favor of one of the cycles, and then a third 3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste to show larger crit/haste. Once I make things a bit more sophisticated I will check how everything scales with those stats to see if there are breaking points.
2k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste

So basically without CB (which shouldn't affect much since it just replaces an incinerate) and life tap (which could hurt the immolate during backdraft more), "ignoring" the backdraft and maintaining the cycle is superior. Incinerating during backdraft scales better though, so with lots of haste/crit it could be better.

Sorry, but do you mind explaining the rotations for each of the three curves in the graph? I'm assuming that the lowest curve is just Immolate/Incinerate while the second is Incinerate with Backdraft. Not so sure about the third curve.

PSGarak · 09/24/08, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by novasphere

That's really because very few people in this thread ever talk about a heavy Demonology Spec, since most of them are coming from either 0/21/40 raid specs or some kind of Affliction spec. I'm personally not really capable of making any kind of mathematical contributions toward Demonology raiding, and it's difficult to do so since it's hard to theorycraft the proper management and survivability of a Felguard with pure numbers. :p

With the new avoidance, survivability can be assumed, although there might be some Health Funnel overhead. I think the bigger issue is that a lot of DPS rests on the 'hidden' mechanics of pet scaling, which they're going to be looking at again soon anyways. Its rotation also changes a lot with the higher-tier talents of the other two trees, probably more than those trees themselves are affected.

Now that Metamorphisis is starting to settle down we can at least debate whether, in isolation, it's a better talent than Devestation (horay it's not competing with Ruin) from a 0/50/20 base. At 20% for 30 second every 3 minutes it's an average 3-1/3% DPS increase (as of build 8982). How devestate comes out depends on your base crit rate, and how much of your damage is from your demon. At 0 demon damage it reaches 3.33% damage increase at 50% base crit; at 0% crit it reaches 3.33% damage at 1/3 pet damage, before Improved Demonic Tactics which would boost it by another 0.5% to 3-5/6%. This goes down as you get higher base crit.

I'm going to cautiously say that metamorphisis probably outdoes devestate, on the assumption that a felguard will do around 30-35% of the caster's DPS and with base crit. This is subject to both confirmation, and change. Metamorphisis also gets a slight edge due to cooldown-stacking. Next question: Corruption? 5/51/15 or no?

Fimotik · 09/24/08, 10:58 PM

I assume the 3 rotations are:

Maintain immo>incin cycle means Immo, Incin x X, Conflag, Immo, Incin x X etc (i.e. casting Immo & 2 x Incins during Backdraft)

Incin during BD means Immo, Incin x X, Conflag, Incin x 3, Immo, Incin x X etc (i.e. casting 3 Incins without Immo up during BD)

Straight Immo>Incin cycle means no Conflag, so just Immo, Incin x X, rinse and repeat (no Conflag, no Backdraft)

That's how I read it anyway. The questions then are how to put in CB for the highest gain, and whether including Corruption for MC procs is worth it or not)

EDIT: does the T6 4-piece bonus affect these rotations?

Trickykid · 09/24/08, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Fimotik

I assume the 3 rotations are:

Maintain immo>incin cycle means Immo, Incin x X, Conflag, Immo, Incin x X etc (i.e. casting Immo & 2 x Incins during Backdraft)

Incin during BD means Immo, Incin x X, Conflag, Incin x 3, Immo, Incin x X etc (i.e. casting 3 Incins without Immo up during BD)

Straight Immo>Incin cycle means no Conflag, so just Immo, Incin x X, rinse and repeat (no Conflag, no Backdraft)

That's how I read it anyway. The questions then are how to put in CB for the highest gain, and whether including Corruption for MC procs is worth it or not)

EDIT: does the T6 4-piece bonus affect these rotations?

Good point on the 4pt6! I'll add that in. And you're correct on the cycles. My guess on CB given the discrepancy in DPCT is that it's always worth casting on CD, regardless of backdraft or not. Not that complicated it just replaces an incinerate wherever. I'll add corruption in, but keep in mind some of these finer points will require the actual numbers. I'll wait to add those in, but have the framework ready to plug away once they're revealed. Will try to get the edited 4pt6 up by tomorrow.

PyroTEK85 · 09/25/08, 12:01 AM

I get the feeling I'm the only demo warlock here?

Anyhow they've fixed some talent issues, namely:
- Immolation Aura now only charges the mana cost once at cast time, and you get the full 15s duration without going OOM in 3 seconds.
- Despite the tooltip wording, all felguard crits are applying Demonic Empathy, not just 'spells and abilities'. Still only cleave and intercept are benefiting when he receives the buff however. Personally I'm not sure if it's worth the points, but I haven't run hard tests or anything.

I'm really enjoying metamorphosis now that immolation is working properly, it just destroys anything near you with ease. I don't know if this would be feasible in raids or not, but if you were to get in melee range with the aura active while continuing to nuke, you'd deal quite a lot of damage. The teleport at 80 would certainly make getting back to your spot a snap. Any thoughts?

Ewinessa · 09/25/08, 12:38 AM

I tried a 0/55/16 metamorphosis build on the normal training dummies. Sustained 2.2-2.3k sustained DPS during roughly a 3 minute session.

No outside buffs, except for my own. Used trinkets + meta + immo aura.

PSGarak · 09/25/08, 12:53 AM

Rank 2 haunt is bugged, returns no health. Rank 1 haunt is not quite as bugged; the health return is less than 200%, more in the neighborhood of maybe 180%. I suspect it's not taking into account SM's effect on the damage or something. Also, when Haunt crits, the heal is based off the non-crit damage. Possibly intended, who knows.

The tooltip for Lifetap does not reflect the actual amount tapped anymore. It's still 3xSPT. Dark Pact scales at less than 100% spell damage; 1208 (shadow) spell damage gives 1099 bonus mana. FYI, it's based off of shadow spellpower, not generic spellpower: 951 spellpower gave 1 less mana than 953 shadow power (around 900 spellpower pre-soulfrost).

Drade · 09/25/08, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

Starting some preliminary models on this (which are pretty useless right now with the relatively large changes that are still going on). I haven't included CB, LT or Corruption in it yet, since so far it's always just worth casting CB when it comes up (will check on the "waiting for backdraft" question, but the DPCT is so much better I doubt it's worth wasting the CD) and corruption (if it's worth casting) should technically benefit all the spells the same (via MC). Life tap could matter since immolate has a higher DPCT, but I don't know how large a swing it'll make.

For what it's worth, the DPCT on SB is so low I haven't even modeled it out yet since even with "ideal" circumstances (Backdraft, ISB and no MC) it's worse DPCT than incinerate without immolate up. I'll add more to see if the 15% MC proc makes up for it... but my prelim guess is no. More to come!

ANYWAY, I graphed out 3 "rotations" without those spells that should mostly contribute the same to each.

I have one with 2k SP, 40% crit and 20% haste, another with 5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste to show SP scaling in favor of one of the cycles, and then a third 3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste to show larger crit/haste. Once I make things a bit more sophisticated I will check how everything scales with those stats to see if there are breaking points.
2k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
5k SP, 40% crit, 20% haste
3k SP, 50% crit, 50% haste

So basically without CB (which shouldn't affect much since it just replaces an incinerate) and life tap (which could hurt the immolate during backdraft more), "ignoring" the backdraft and maintaining the cycle is superior. Incinerating during backdraft scales better though, so with lots of haste/crit it could be better.

Was FnB factored in with these calculations? It would seem like it would push the "Maintain Cycle" spec ahead of the others. If so, could you maybe run them without FnB (or with, if it wasn't factored) so we could get a real numbers value for how much that talent is worth based on what rotation/gear you're using? Thanks alot for this btw!

turturin · 09/25/08, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

I'm going to cautiously say that metamorphisis probably outdoes devestate, on the assumption that a felguard will do around 30-35% of the caster's DPS and with base crit. This is subject to both confirmation, and change. Metamorphisis also gets a slight edge due to cooldown-stacking. Next question: Corruption? 5/51/15 or no?

Yes early after release. Most raids won't need demonic pact with shaman totem being stronger at that point. This probably changes later, at which point the question becomes probably about demonic empathy/imp demonic tactics vs. imp corruption

Fulgurite · 09/25/08, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Harne

It might just be referring to ranks 1 & 2 of the talent. If the wowhead talent calculator matches the in game tooltip for that talent, all three ranks say the exact same thing, making it pointless to even spend more than one point in the talent if it worked as advertised. Getting only a 10% or 20% cast reduction from the first two points would make sense.

Well actually that was just a tooltip fix. I've tested it in Beta and you've always gotten 10% per point, though the tooltip has been bugged for a week to say 30% every time (since they removed the mana cost).

But the mmo-champion blurb was misleading, it is indeed 10/20/30% in the tooltip now (matching what has been the in game effect for a few builds).

Originally Posted by turturin

Yes early after release. Most raids won't need demonic pact with shaman totem being stronger at that point. This probably changes later, at which point the question becomes probably about demonic empathy/imp demonic tactics vs. imp corruption

I would venture to say it will only change VERY later. Wrath of Air is 280 spell damage. That's 2800 spell damage average per person it affects before the Demo buff is better. Pretty high if you ask me.

------

I'm going to do some basic 80 premade tests on fire destro backdraft soon I think. Kind of dragging my feet because I'm discouraged by the constant shadow nerfs. I really do wish there was an alternative in the destro tree to go Shadow.

Montegomery · 09/25/08, 4:19 AM

I've done some DPS testing now that the level 70 dummies are back on the PTR. To the best that I can tell there really isn't a preferable casting rotation at the T4/ZA level. None of them consistently outshone the others with and without Backdraft, with and without Shadow Bolt etc. The difference between the worst and the best was 100 DPS, and that wasn't even consistent.

Perhaps if I can get in a group for buffs I'll try the cycles again, but I think my gear level isn't indicative of any trends we'll see at 80.

Scrufola · 09/25/08, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Hrm. Death Coil isn't in mmo-champ's spell list anymore. Let's assume that's an oversight for the moment...

Did someone check on the PTR or Beta? I still could not find it on the newest mmo-champion spell list.

Pyralissa · 09/25/08, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by Scrufola

Did someone check on the PTR or Beta? I still could not find it on the newest mmo-champion spell list.

It was just an oversight, probably spurred on by the fact there are two Death Coil spells.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 6:12 AM

SimulationCraft has been updated for patch 8982. The list of classes now supported includes: Druid, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Warlock.

Multi-player simulation that supports user-specified talent setups and action priority lists.

The pets are modeled as separate actors with their own action priority lists.

Using Naxx-10 baseline gear:

Player=Warlock_Affliction  DPS=3917.8  DPR=10.9  RPS=359.7/388.3  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=59  agility=61  stamina=865  intellect=899  spirit=431  health=11846  mana=17344
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=0.5%  crit=20.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=49  hit=0.0%  crit=3.2%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    corruption            Count=  1.2|289.2sec  DPE=190444|17%  DPET=139594  DPR=374.6  Miss=9.8%  Tick=2057
    curse_of_doom         Count=  7.2|48.0sec  DPE=15750| 8%  DPET=13129  DPR=28.9  Miss=10.9%  Tick=22567
    haunt                 Count= 29.1|11.8sec  DPE=3063| 7%  DPET=2271  DPR= 7.0  Miss=10.6%  Hit=2482  CritHit=4972|5439|33.9%
    immolate              Count= 24.3|14.1sec  DPE=3929| 7%  DPET=2921  DPR= 6.0  Miss=13.8%  Hit=1107  CritHit=1660|1667|30.9%  Tick=726
    shadow_bolt           Count=109.3| 3.1sec  DPE=4211|34%  DPET=2137  DPR= 6.4  Miss=13.4%  Hit=4082  CritHit=6122|6684|33.2%
    siphon_life           Count= 12.4|27.8sec  DPE=7649| 7%  DPET=5672  DPR=13.2  Miss=10.7%  Tick=885
    unstable_affliction   Count= 21.3|16.2sec  DPE=9814|15%  DPET=7289  DPR=18.0  Miss=10.6%  Tick=2008
   felhunter
    melee                 Count=171.3| 2.0sec  DPE= 254| 3%  DPET= 127  DPR= inf  Miss=9.1%  Hit= 311  CritHit= 622| 623|6.0%
    shadow_bite           Count= 55.7| 6.2sec  DPE= 293| 1%  DPET= 172  DPR= inf  Miss=9.3%  Hit= 333  CritHit= 667| 680|6.0%

Player=Warlock_Demonology  DPS=3153.6  DPR=9.7  RPS=324.8/394.9  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=59  agility=61  stamina=994  intellect=899  spirit=431  health=12105  mana=17748
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=0.5%  crit=20.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=49  hit=0.0%  crit=3.2%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    corruption            Count= 21.3|16.1sec  DPE=3745| 7%  DPET=2782  DPR= 6.9  Miss=13.8%  Tick=791
    curse_of_doom         Count=  7.4|46.3sec  DPE=11206| 8%  DPET=8313  DPR=19.3  Miss=13.9%  Tick=16625
    immolate              Count= 24.5|14.0sec  DPE=3997| 9%  DPET=2970  DPR= 6.3  Miss=10.7%  Hit=1209  CritHit=2422|2933|36.2%  Tick=624
    shadow_bolt           Count=125.9| 2.7sec  DPE=5218|61%  DPET=2509  DPR= 8.2  Miss=10.6%  Hit=4077  CritHit=8157|9986|38.6%
   felguard
    cleave                Count= 55.6| 6.2sec  DPE= 813| 4%  DPET= 478  DPR= inf  Miss=9.1%  Hit= 823  CritHit=1646|1673|17.1%
    melee                 Count=180.2| 1.9sec  DPE= 671|11%  DPET= 353  DPR= inf  Miss=9.0%  Hit= 720  CritHit=1440|1462|17.2%

Player=Warlock_Destruction  DPS=3658.6  DPR=11.5  RPS=318.5/428.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=59  agility=61  stamina=865  intellect=899  spirit=431  health=11846  mana=17344
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=0.5%  crit=20.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=49  hit=0.0%  crit=3.2%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    chaos_bolt            Count= 23.9|14.4sec  DPE=6552|12%  DPET=3947  DPR=25.0  Miss=10.7%  Hit=4902  CritHit=9840|10338|44.0%
    conflagrate           Count= 17.2|20.0sec  DPE=3918| 5%  DPET=2921  DPR= 8.7  Miss=10.7%  Hit=2549  CritHit=5095|5506|64.5%
    corruption            Count= 21.1|16.3sec  DPE=3694| 6%  DPET=2743  DPR= 7.3  Miss=10.6%  Tick=754
    curse_of_doom         Count=  7.1|48.2sec  DPE=10135| 6%  DPET=7512  DPR=18.6  Miss=10.7%  Tick=14449
    immolate              Count= 26.0|13.2sec  DPE=5599|12%  DPET=4162  DPR= 8.8  Miss=10.6%  Hit=2264  CritHit=4543|4982|41.9%  Tick=800
    incinerate            Count= 41.5| 8.3sec  DPE=5739|19%  DPET=3180  DPR=10.9  Miss=10.6%  Hit=4280  CritHit=8556|8872|44.7%
    shadow_bolt           Count= 66.8| 5.1sec  DPE=5504|29%  DPET=2778  DPR= 8.6  Miss=10.4%  Hit=4080  CritHit=8166|8494|45.2%
   imp
    fire_bolt             Count=172.2| 2.0sec  DPE= 767|11%  DPET= 386  DPR= inf  Miss=13.9%  Hit= 800  CritHit=1201|1204|19.5%

Many of the spells have a variety of conditionals that help you control the player AI, handy for proc-heavy Destruction builds:

These charts were generated with the following priority list:
flask,type=pure_death
fel_armor
summon_pet,imp
curse_of_doom
chaos_bolt
corruption
immolate
conflagrate
incinerate,molten_core=1
shadow_bolt
life_tap

I'd like to get a decent set of default profiles for the Warlock specs, so I welcome feedback on my talent specs and action priorities. These can be found in raid_wotlk.txt.

Kuradoberi · 09/25/08, 7:03 AM

I do not know if this is considered a default spec, but do you mind modeling this 'abomination' spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Priorities are :
CoD > Corruption > Shadow Bolt 'spam'
Dark Pact > Life Tap

Does SimulationCraft support Glyphs?

PS : that Destruction spec that you posted with 344sec combattime, did the Imp ever got out of mana?

Roywyn · 09/25/08, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Fulgurite

I would venture to say it will only change VERY later. Wrath of Air is 280 spell damage. That's 2800 spell damage average per person it affects before the Demo buff is better. Pretty high if you ask me.

Demonology spec warlocks should be able to hit 2.8k spell power raid buffed in a Naxx-10 kit.
Even Mages have more than 2.8k fully buffed in a Naxx-25 kit, without Fel Armour or Demonic Knowledge.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kuradoberi

I do not know if this is considered a default spec, but do you mind modeling this 'abomination' spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Priorities are :
CoD > Corruption > Shadow Bolt 'spam'
Dark Pact > Life Tap

Does SimulationCraft support Glyphs?

PS : that Destruction spec that you posted with 344sec combattime, did the Imp ever got out of mana?

We have glyph support for all classes but Warlocks.... I'll work on that today.

Right now Warlock pets have infinite mana. All/Most of the infrastructure is there for pet sources of mana regen, but I couldn't find any info on the base regen level for warlock pets.....

Kobal · 09/25/08, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Maels

We've narrowed it down to demo, destro or affliction with 51+ in either.
My guess would be 0/3/58. Still a toss up for wotlk.

The big problem with 0/3/58 that I see in 3.0 is whether the Imp can actually survive in Sunwell. If not...

Betel · 09/25/08, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

We have glyph support for all classes but Warlocks.... I'll work on that today.

Right now Warlock pets have infinite mana. All/Most of the infrastructure is there for pet sources of mana regen, but I couldn't find any info on the base regen level for warlock pets.....

I was testing different destruction rotations when I ran into a problem.

Currently the backdraft conditional is available only for shadow bolt, but not for immolate or incinerate. This creates a problem: it is impossible to model a conflag 3xincinerate immo rotation, which might end up being good since there are other warlocks keeping immo up. If I have time I'll try to add the conditional and recompile so I can finish the tests.