Hi, im sorry, but can i get a rough guide of which talent build will provide the best pve raid spec? And kindly link the talent calculator and spell rotations please?
We seem to get one of these every couple of pages or so. Sort answer, there is not a stable one right now. Long answer? Eh, I'm too lazy to write it, but check this thread whenever a beta patch hits that modifies us and you'll see all KINDS of sims and theorycraft putting the specs in order. Or, you know, just search for posts by our favorite shadow priest, Deadmonwakeen (sorry if I butchered the spelling).
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
Hi, im sorry, but can i get a rough guide of which talent build will provide the best pve raid spec? And kindly link the talent calculator and spell rotations please?
There won't be an answer to this until we have a beta/ptr build that actually works. It's safe to say that Demo is out until we crest more than 3k spellpower.
I've pretty much come up with the foundation of my spec at 80. I was looking for something that's versatile for soloing, raiding, and pvp. So far I've come up with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft This leaves 4 extra points. I'm trying to figure out where these points can be spent to provide the greatest increase of damage. The main talents I was considering are Pandemic, Eradication, and Malediction in the affliction tree and Demonic Aegis in the demonology tree.
I'm not strong with the math involved to evaluate Pandemic and Eradication, but maybe someone can help me figure out how the haste proc or extra damage proc on corruption and UC affect overall damage. Malediction and Demonic Aegis seem like they could be comparable depending on exactly how Demonic Aegis works. Given about 2k spell damage at lv 80, Malediction would add 60 spell damage. I'm unclear if Demonic Aegis only affects the 180 spell power from fel armor, or the spell power from spirit too. If it's only a bonus to the 180 spell power, that would come out to 54 spell damage. I'd appreciate it if one of you math geniuses can help me figure out which 4 talent points will produce the most overall damage.
@ Dedmonwakeen, if possible can you include test cases where a lock has to use CoE/CoR instead of CoA/CoD? There might be situations where CoE/CoR are better than its counterparts and I'd like to see how much of a deviation the sim shows in such a non best case scenario.
For the moment, I've been concerned with looking at peak-performance. Once I have more support for melee classes I'll start putting together a wide variety of raids.
Of course, in the meantime, it is pretty easy to take the standard config and change CoD to CoE.
Any news on what the current coefficient for Chaos Bolt is? Last I saw is was set for a 2 second cast, which for a baseline 2.5 second spell makes it pretty woeful, especially in terms of scaling.
I'm not on Beta so I can't test it out, but has anyone tried an Master Demonologist + Shadow & Flame build with 1 point in Emp Imp? Given the weakness of F&B, Backlash and CB right now, just wondering what the numbers looks like. Of course Beta won't tell how things work on much higher gear levels, which my main concern is at the moment.
@ Dedmonwakeen, if possible can you include test cases where a lock has to use CoE/CoR instead of CoA/CoD? There might be situations where CoE/CoR are better than its counterparts and I'd like to see how much of a deviation the sim shows in such a non best case scenario.
With JoW change rolled back, and Mage "Torment" working as listed on tooltip:
I ran some Imp-tests with 5/5 Soul Leech. All tests were made with 3/3 Improved Imp, 3/3 Fel Vitality, 2/2 Demonic Power and 3/3 Empowered Imp. Imp has 3493 mana.
Time until oom: 144 seconds
Average DPS: 166
Mana gained from SL: 1118
Without passive regen or Soul Leech the Imp would be oom in ~48 seconds. The extra mana from Soul Leech bought it ~16 seconds more. That leaves 40 seconds of casting that was supported by passive regen alone.
It translates into 100 mp5 while casting.
So Imp Soul Leech improved his time to OOM by about 35% with self buffs only, thats not overly bad. The mana from Soul Leech also allowed him to bring in more mana vs pasive regen before burning out since he had 106s - 144s worth of regen he didnt have without Imp Soul Leech.
Any news on what the current coefficient for Chaos Bolt is? Last I saw is was set for a 2 second cast, which for a baseline 2.5 second spell makes it pretty woeful, especially in terms of scaling.
Blizz has said they're not hand-tweaking coefficients anymore, so all spells have the coefficient of their untalented cast time. However, Chaos Bolt was added to Shadow & Flame, meaning for every scaling benefit that shadowbolt or incinerate recieves, it recieves the same thing or better. Its shorter cast time gives it more benefit from Bane than shadowbolt and twice what emberstorm gives to incinerate, as well as giving it a slight edge on DPS from S&F compared to either. Even without Molten Core, Emberstorm gives more to CB than the new ISB does to SB. They're all affected by devestate, ruin, backlash, and cataclysm. I think its shorter talented cast time have very minor effects on Backdraft and Emp Imp, but not enough to make it scale worse.
Even with all of the new talents to buff it,conflag still kills your dps =(
Just wish they would scrap the spell and add something actually useful like a talent that increases your spell damage by 1 would be 10 times more useful than conflag.
I've been looking but haven't found a good comparison of destruction rotations, can anyone point me in the right direction? I've been doing some of my own work but don't have the time to finish it properly right now.
The way I see it, there are a few questions about prioritisation that we need to work out (or have been and I need to see):
1) Backdraft : One charge should go to chaos bolt, that is fairly certain I think. After that, you can either : use 2 on SB (longer cast time = more benefit from the haste, but less shadow buffs), cast 2 incinerate (have more fire buffs, but immolate is down), cast an immolate then incinerate (potentially 'wasting' a backdraft charge on a fast cast spell), or maybe even immolate SB.
Tied up with this is the question: is our highest DPS rotation simply to get between backdrafts as fast as possible? The only reason that it might not be true is that you need some extra time to keep DoTs up or something.
2) Corruption and CoA : With both up, you get ~80% molten core uptime, so you should keep them up. But, it is worth interrupting the 6 potential incinerates you get on an immolate to refresh them? (The main alternative I see being to use some of the spare time while backdraft is up to refresh them.) I suspect so, but I would like to see some calculations.
Even with all of the new talents to buff it,conflag still kills your dps =(
Just wish they would scrap the spell and add something actually useful like a talent that increases your spell damage by 1 would be 10 times more useful than conflag.
I don't know personally I'd love conflag to work like the PVE boss ability of a stun/scatter shot, but that's me. I think what they need to add is a warlock ability for like a 20k instant cast 15min cooldown ability. Kills the warlock instantly (saving dura of course) and is great for saving you from those 1% wipes. The destruction answer for CoD. But yes I agree having a spell eat a dot from another spell and use that much mana is not really the best thing for pve.
The last tests I saw had Conflag/Backdraft/Immo/Incin rotations a little bit ahead of pure Immo/Incin rotations, so it seems to be OK at starter gear level. It remains to be seen whether at T8 & T9 gear levels this holds true, given that neither Immo nor Conflag scale terribly well (which gimps not only Backdraft but also Fire & Brimstone as a talent). The mana efficiency/life tap part hasn't been that well analysed from what I've seen, so how much that extra DPS is eaten by extra life tapping I don't know. The only 25-mans I've been able to do on PTR have involved too much movement to provide good DPS data (wtb Brutallus runs).
If Chaos Bolt scales well then that is a saving grace. Let's hope that tier set bonuses bring some love to counterbalance the Immo/Conflag/Incin dilemma.
EDIT - Kalku, there is test data on various destruction rotations in the last 10 pages. The result was Backdraft > Immo > Incin > Incin was the highest DPS rotation (as against Incin x 3 and no conflag/backdraft). The problem with trying to Backdraft Chaos Bolt is the 12 second cool down v. Immolate's 15 second duriation + cast time and + Conflag GCD & CD. It just gets too messy, and your mana efficiency drops if you keep Conflagging early.
Molten Core seems to be an OK talent as long as Corruption competes in terms of DPCT. As gear progresses, Corruption for deep destro locks will start to lose relative DPCT so the value of Molten Core drops. The other problem with Molten Core is its RNG nature. I would think it would be better just to maintain a rotation than the try to react to MC procs otherwise it would just get too messy. Too often on PTR I've seen it proc at the end of a rotation just as I'm about to reapply Corr or CoA or life tap etc. On fights with lots of movement MC would be of marginal benefit.
Just a comment regarding SimulationCraft (which I'm only just working out how to use), it looks like the destruction simulation does not assume that you have a chaotic skyfire diamond or equivalent. This is a huge disadvantage to destruction, but not assuming a meta for affliction does not make nearly as much difference.
Fimotik - Thanks for the summary, in my perusal I didn't see a clear conclusion. Now that I'm working out simcraft, I'll do some more detailed comparisons of my own.
Didn't Blizzard say utility builds should have lower DPS than non utility builds? How is it that mages out DPS Destro locks?
Because Simcraft assumes a +12% damage mage talent that we couldn't and most likely never will and are not intended to get to work on bosses?
Not to mention that the talent is supposed to be 6% and not 12%.
It's pretty safe to cut the listed mage DPS by 12%, so we land a good chunk behind you.
Heaven forbid your DPS is lower than a cookie-portal-utility class!
Didn't Blizzard say utility builds should have lower DPS than non utility builds? How is it that mages out DPS Destro locks?
The game is in beta & simcraft itself is being heavily tweaked so I dont see the point in whining over its results. Besides, they've already stated that there is no 'utility' spec or class anymore and that they want all dps classes to be doing roughly the same amount of damage.
Didn't Blizzard say utility builds should have lower DPS than non utility builds? How is it that mages out DPS Destro locks?
That is a tedious discussion. Mages and locks have always had similar utility. They have similar utility now. It is pointless trying to downplay your own classes utility in an appeal to get more damage and thus top damage meters. Because that is where this kind of reasoning always lands. Same with rogues claiming "you have so much utility", when in fact they are delighted to have none so they can argue they should have the highest dps.
I think this is one of the main reasons Blizzard is have decided to spread out utility and increase dps for hybrids. They simply got tired of the sense of entitlement from mainly rogues and mages, but also warlocks and it made it hard to balance hybrids in a meaningful way. When utility is seen as a burden and not an asset, it is time for change. I can fully understand it.
It has been said before, I think, but the first few tiers of destruction are looking very messy to me.
With the continued absence of any adjustment to the hit chance of Soulshatter, Cataclysm is not looking particularly good, at least at higher gear levels once the hit cap is approaching. Even if you assume that Molten Core remains viable into those higher gear levels, which seems unlikely due to lack of DoT scaling in Destro, that leaves deep destro locks with an unenviable choice of places to put points 6-10 in their spec.
Paradoxically, it is the warlocks who spec in destruction who must waste the most points in that tree to get where they're going. Aftermath remains just an embarrassment.
I for one am sincerely hoping that one of the changes that the devs are still going to make is to either: a) clean up the mess at the top of destruction or b) do something about soulshatter to make +hit talents useful for us.
On a separate topic, has anyone done any testing on what would be optimal rotations for Deep Demo?
Didn't Blizzard say utility builds should have lower DPS than non utility builds? How is it that mages out DPS Destro locks?
No, they didn't. They actually said something along the lines of "Utility will no longer be a substitute for dps, all classes will do roughly the same amount of damage regardless of utility" (heavily paraphrased).
i'd like to comment on the everlasting affliction change.
first of all, i understand that the change was brought upon to eliminate the need to refresh corruption by shadow bolting, when the boss is under 25%. in the already clustered affliction rotation, tossing a shadow bolt and then soul draining yielded just 1-2 ticks before you had to start re-applying dots/haunt, less if you had to lifetap.
i'll admit that it was a brilliant idea to make corruption refreshed by haunt instead. for the sake of drain sou.
HOWEVER!! it doesnt work. all viable rotations are new fubared because i'm having corruption expiring on me. cast time + travel time leaves you little to no room of error in re-applying haunt, and that absolutely destroys rotations, and requires massive amount of focus.
the ONLY way to keep corruption up thru haunt, is to clip dots. yes, if i re-apply haunt right after it expires, it barely makes it there, and it does refresh corruption. in order to do that, i'm finding myself re-applying dots 1-3 ticks before they expire, just for the sake of a rotation.
at only lvl71, i was getting a very impressive 1900dps with my rotation. shadow bolt was only 30% of my dmg due to not being able to get ruin at 70. after the change, i got hit with a 250dps reduction, because of either corruption expiring on me, having to refresh dots a lot sooner, and for the most part becoming paranoid when haunt was expiring. the result of that was a drop of shadow bolt dmg to 23% of my dmg, and the overall 250dps drop.
Because Simcraft assumes a +12% damage mage talent that we couldn't and most likely never will and are not intended to get to work on bosses?
Not to mention that the talent is supposed to be 6% and not 12%.
It's pretty safe to cut the listed mage DPS by 12%, so we land a good chunk behind you.
Heaven forbid your DPS is lower than a cookie-portal-utility class!
Just to clarify..... the build that generated that table had Torment at 6% and the poor Arcane Mage that had to keep up Slow was down in the dps-basement. Unfortunately, NOT taking Torment doesn't suddenly offer the Mage some other decent dps-enhancing talent so you have to take 6% of the top.
And, yeah..... I agree with Roywyn: I highly doubt that it will make it to live.
It is always a tough call for me: Implement it "as-is" or implement it "as-I-think-it-will-be".
i'd like to comment on the everlasting affliction change.
first of all, i understand that the change was brought upon to eliminate the need to refresh corruption by shadow bolting, when the boss is under 25%. in the already clustered affliction rotation, tossing a shadow bolt and then soul draining yielded just 1-2 ticks before you had to start re-applying dots/haunt, less if you had to lifetap.
i'll admit that it was a brilliant idea to make corruption refreshed by haunt instead. for the sake of drain sou.
HOWEVER!! it doesnt work. all viable rotations are new fubared because i'm having corruption expiring on me. cast time + travel time leaves you little to no room of error in re-applying haunt, and that absolutely destroys rotations, and requires massive amount of focus.
the ONLY way to keep corruption up thru haunt, is to clip dots. yes, if i re-apply haunt right after it expires, it barely makes it there, and it does refresh corruption. in order to do that, i'm finding myself re-applying dots 1-3 ticks before they expire, just for the sake of a rotation.
at only lvl71, i was getting a very impressive 1900dps with my rotation. shadow bolt was only 30% of my dmg due to not being able to get ruin at 70. after the change, i got hit with a 250dps reduction, because of either corruption expiring on me, having to refresh dots a lot sooner, and for the most part becoming paranoid when haunt was expiring. the result of that was a drop of shadow bolt dmg to 23% of my dmg, and the overall 250dps drop.
anyone else experiencing this?
Corruption is 18 seconds. Haunt has a cd of 10 seconds. If that is not enough, you must have created a very strange rotation. Basically you want to use Haunt close to as often as you can while not clipping stuff, but that should be no more than 12-13 seconds in the worst case.
I do agree it was completely absurd to remove Shadow Bolt as EA refresher just because they wanted to add Haunt. They could just have left Shadow Bolt there as well and there would be no complaint. But like many of the warlock changes lately it simply seems poorly thought out.
Perhaps they were scared that 50/0/21 would scale better and didn't want players to use it. They seem intent on pushing cooldown abilities on us at all costs. Conflag, Chaos Bolt, Haunt. Perhaps that is just the backlash from TBC destro rotation being so simple to use.
Imp. Immolate just adds an 1.3 multiplier to the DD component. Fire&Brimstone looks like 15% of spellpower with the DD component receiving 33% and the DoT component receiving 67%.
Imp. Immolate just adds an 1.3 multiplier to the DD component. Fire&Brimstone looks like 15% of spellpower with the DD component receiving 33% and the DoT component receiving 67%.
You tested that without Emberstorm, right?
I am wondering about the "Glyph of Immolate". If I calculate the values, I get:
At your gear level, the glyph is more powerful than the 5 points in F&B? And the glyph should scale better then F&B with spell damage and worse then F&B with crit.
And because F&B adds 10% to the part which is boosted by the glyph and only 5% to the part that is weakened by the glyph, they should cooperate.
That would be a gain of about 13 dps (194dmg / 15s).
Originally Posted by Lebuff
I just tested some Imp dps and oom-time.
All tests were made with 3/3 Improved Imp and 3/3 Fel Vitality.
On a lvl 70 dummy with untalented CoE on it.
I have 1326 firedamage with Fel armor.
Test with 2/2 Demonic Power:
Average oom-time: 106 seconds
Average DPS: 160
DPS after oom: 118
Test without Demonic Power:
Average oom-time: 139 seconds
Average DPS: 144
DPS after oom: 106
The Imp glyph adds 10% to the Imp damage, so thats somewhere between 10 and 16 dps then.
I'm still hoping we get a glyph a bit more sexy than just a 13 dps increase, neglecting one talent point or 10% more damage to an oom-going pet.
10/02/08, 7:31 PM
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