Unfortunately, this Kalgan post ... I doubt they are going to change it before release.
The post says 'We would like to increase the number of debuff slots, yes, and we most likely will.' Now 'most likely' is certianly not definative but I wouldn't go so far as to dissmiss the possiblity given this statement.
I did naxxramas with my premade lock tonight and used pretty much the same specc maels suggested some posts earlier. When faerlina for example came down to approximately 20% health i channeled DS but it only ticked for about 1k dmg, no sign of the overpowered ticks the simulationcraft sampleoutput made me expect. I´m still raiding as i type these lines, so if you have some suggestions for me i´ll try to turn them in to practice asap.
That dps difference could be at least partly attributable to Pandemic not scaling with the mage spellcrit debuff. At least I'm fairly sure that's the case. Trying to get hold of Dr boom with and without a mage around is quite difficult to get some proper testing done.
Any test i did when a mage would suggest that it doesn't effect pandemic. ~1000 ticks with my crit rating and ~9% extra on my shadowbolts.
When faerlina for example came down to approximately 20% health i channeled DS but it only ticked for about 1k dmg, no sign of the overpowered ticks the simulationcraft sampleoutput made me expect.
It's broken this build. Personally didn't see a huge spike (or a spike at all) using DS, and I kept my dots all up, like a big warlock. I just continued to use the same rotation sub 20% (tooltip says 25%, but I think this build is in flux and the effect is gone for now).
Using haunt first allows more dots to be affected by the haunt effect for a longer period of time, and also utilizes the GCD better (Cast time --> instant --> cast time --> instant --> cast time --> instant).
To utilize GCD better (or to be precise to bypass part of it) cast time should be above GCD which doesn't hold true in case of Haunt. Spells with cast time equal to GCD are essentially GCD-limited just like faster ones and instants.
Originally Posted by Bismar
I'll say whether non-stacking debuffs take up more than one slot, but my first guess is "yes".
Non-stacking debuffs kick (and prevent application of) each other when one has higher or equal remaining duration and higher or equal effect. I'm pretty sure it works like that on Live as well, at least that's the general observation.
Originally Posted by Maels
My debuffs never fell off in a 25 man beta raid, and I've done more than most.
I remember Rogues and Warriors using all kinds of their DOTs, 3 Shadow Priests and 3 Affliction Warlocks in a 25-man raid and it was pretty evil for debuffs. If Affliction Warlocks stay the top DPS, people who currently stack up Warlocks will just have them respec and then their DPS will be low because debuffs won't stay.
I've been thinking lately about the wonderous advantage of being able to CoD on many boss fights in WoTLK. But thinking about it...how much DPS would be lost from not having CoE up there due to the -resistances that CoE provides?
More specifically, how much +resist would a boss type mob have?
I've been thinking lately about the wonderous advantage of being able to CoD on many boss fights in WoTLK. But thinking about it...how much DPS would be lost from not having CoE up there due to the -resistances that CoE provides?
More specifically, how much +resist would a boss type mob have?
Most of the boss resistance values in TBC are level based and cannot be negated using CoE. This is the same reason that spell penetration is a useless stat in PvE except on select bosses like Supremus (fire resistant).
8 second CD on haunt now, this should help quite a bit. The extra heal will be handy for the pvpers. Does the 75% buff to shadow flame restore it to what it was or are we above or below the old value?
has anyone seen evidence that bosses in WOTLK dungeons have MORE than the level-based resist? Extra resistance that we can remove with CoE could cause a DPS loss if not handled with CoE, forcing us to run it in addition to Earth and Moon.
But I'm not sure if they'd be putting extra resist on bosses (beyond flavor-based resist such as with supremus) because there's still no other ability reducing enemy resistances that I know of.
Also, regarding lvl 70 raiding builds, it feels so far like Destruction is scaling better in a group because of the lack of ruin in Haunt builds. My tests so far (mentioned on my previous post) indicated a backdraft, empowered imp (no demonic power or he runs OOM too fast) and improved CoA can be a pretty good combo.
Anybody else getting different results for level 70 builds? And does anybody have insight about removable resists on lvl 80 raid bosses?
Yes, it seems like destruction is better than affliction for lvl 70.
But after the big fix push in latest simcraft (mostly mana regen for destruction) it seems destruction scaling is appaling, affliction scales better even with gaining a lot of ratings (crit/haste/stats vs spell dmg). Fortunately the gear levels used are pretty much end game Wrath (3.3k spell power and 700crit/750 haste or 900 crit/1000 haste) or a bit better so there's plenty of time if that turns out to be true.
Nice part is that affliction, while not the best of the best is still very close to fire mages and frostfire mages. Destruction goes down to below balance druids, and the top dps to bottom dps is around 60% more, which is ... erm nothing close to what Blizz is saying they want.
Unfortunately affliction is also based on dot uptime and getting 100% uptime is never really possible but at least 1 spec will be close to the top casters.
I doubt they will add many bosses, if any, without "thematic" amounts of magic resist, particularly because that would make CoE a privelaged raid debuff. They could go around adding more spell penetration to other debuffs, but really there's no reason to add resists to in order that they be taken off with penetration that you would also have to go around and add. Since doing it or not is a completely raid-neutral change, the justifications for doing so or not doing so are inertia, and PvP balance.
I remember Rogues and Warriors using all kinds of their DOTs, 3 Shadow Priests and 3 Affliction Warlocks in a 25-man raid and it was pretty evil for debuffs. If Affliction Warlocks stay the top DPS, people who currently stack up Warlocks will just have them respec and then their DPS will be low because debuffs won't stay.
Well you should of had a word with your warrior/rogues to limited the number of debuffs. However in woltk deep wounds is working like the old rolling ignite so warrior dots will be better than warlocks.
Is DS still doing quad damage after 25%? For me it isn't which would mean that affliction would be about equal to destro in theory and destro probably being higher due an easier rotation. It also doesn't suffer from the range/threat issues of affliction.
As I posted on the last page, I have found that our Dark Pact mana returns are based on +healing stats and not +dmg or +shadow. I would like to report this as a bug, but I was really hoping there would be some reply on here saying that I am not crazy before I report it. I think this could correct some of the issues we are seeing with DP being essentially useless. I also still feel that there has to be some change done to make DP a more appealing choice than Life Tap such that LT only becomes useful if you cannot manage enough regen on the pet. Removing DP from any GCD or making it scale such that it is always more return than LT both seem like easy solutions. If something isnt done, why are we being screwed on a talent as low in the tree as it is being completely useless?
Would someone please suggest a viable Destro raidspecc for me to test out on these dummies? I already tried out Affli and found it very disheartening because despite me putting all efforts in keeping up haunt and the dots it only turned out about 1500 dps on the premade warlock... I dont know if i did some major mistakes, but after what i read on the last 10 or so pages of this thread, what i did should have been more or less everything you can do with affli specc.
Would someone please suggest a viable Destro raidspecc for me to test out on these dummies? I already tried out Affli and found it very disheartening because despite me putting all efforts in keeping up haunt and the dots it only turned out about 1500 dps on the premade warlock... I dont know if i did some major mistakes, but after what i read on the last 10 or so pages of this thread, what i did should have been more or less everything you can do with affli specc.
I believe Pandemic deals 1 or 2 dmg to training dummies. Atleast this was the case about week ago. Also, if you check your dps with Recount, it is not telling the true dps you're doing because of the method how Recount calculates dps.
My relevant solo stats (self buffed with fel intelligence and fel armor) are 1223dmg (1277 shadow) 236 spirit and 1053 healing (this is actually relevant).
1053 spell power
0.3 spellpower/spirit from fel armor * 236 spirit = 70.8
100 spell power from fel armor
Total: 1223 spell power
Soulfrost on weapon: 54 shadow damage
Total: 1277
You saw a DP of 1858:
700 + 0.96 * (1053 + 54 + 100) = 1858.72
Swapping gear, my stats with the same buffs change to 1226dmg (1280 shadow) 324 spirit and 1029 healing. Life tap now produces 2021 mana however Dark pact actually went DOWN, even though my damage went up. DP produces 1835 mana each use (sometimes 1836). Since I thought DP was scaled on shadow damage, I was very confused until I noticed the +healing number actually went down.
You saw a DP of 1835:
700 + 0.96 * (1029 + 54 + 100) = 1835.68
Originally Posted by Natasmai
Dark Pact is apparently scaled on +healing. And why would my damage go up, but healing go down?
Looks like the character screen shows the spell power from gear as "healing" and the spell power from gear plus buffs (which probably only affect our damage spells) as "damage".
Disclaimer: I know that we don't have healing spells but I assume a buff has to specify somewhere if it only affects healing or damage or both. Stuff like this also distinguishes between damage and healing spells.
Looks like DP does not scale with the spell power we get from the 30% spirit from fel armor. I think this is a bug.
Yes that was what I calculated also. Fel Armor states "increases SPELL POWER not damage, so I think it should apply to the DP total.
Would this be enough to keep DP a useful point spent? How much worse is DP vs. LT at 80 in Naxx-10 gear for example? How much spirit is an average raid buffed warlock running with? If you add 180 + .3 (spi) would it make DP usable? Im seeing that there is only an additional 116 spi from the full Naxx-10 5 piece set (only head and shoulders have spirit). I am getting 89 spi from the 3 badge pieces currently, so 116 isnt alot.
Going back to the Demonology discussion a bit, the posts by Sinnocence a couple of pages ago suggested a "max-DPS" spec for LK - which looks absolutely boring, having to give up Demo's unique talents to make up for DPS (don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the work he's done, but if that's the way to play Demo efficiently I'd rather not play it). So my question is, would Demonic Pact uptime make up for the loss of personal DPS with a spec like this?
I am not completely happy with that spec either, the 2 wasted points in ISB annoy me. I'm not in the beta to test it. So I was just wondering if someone has modeled the raid impact of Demonic Pact, and how much uptime we're expected to get with a fully-buffed/talented Felguard. Or is Demo hopeless?
Well you should of had a word with your warrior/rogues to limited the number of debuffs.
Just an FYI on rogue debuffs.
Combat:
~200 DPS from rupture over another eviscerate
This is after adjusting glyphs and spec to buff eviscerate instead of rupture if asked to switch on the spot the loss will be higher ~300 DPS loss.
~120 DPS from deadly poison over instant
Mutilate:
~250 DPS from rupture over another envenom
This requires no adjustments since the build is already attempting to maximize envenom damage
~550 DPS from deadly poison over instant
This case is complex. Not only does mutilate require poisons to deal full damage it requires using envenom regularly in cycles to deal full damage and envenom cannot be used without taking up a debuff slot for deadly poison. Not using envenom because of not using deadly poison results in very significant loss in instant poison damage from the loss of the envenom poison proc buff in addtion to the already significant loss of using eviscerate instead.
Asking a combat rogue to drop deadly poison is probably acceptable, asking a mutilate rogue to drop anything is probably not raid optimal. None of these values are static and will vary with gear, if your rogues are competent in the least they should be able to personally calculate the losses in each case and present those figures. All of these values scale well with gear so it is unlikely gear level at 80 will have a significant impact on relative values.
Going back to the Demonology discussion a bit, the posts by Sinnocence a couple of pages ago suggested a "max-DPS" spec for LK - which looks absolutely boring, having to give up Demo's unique talents to make up for DPS (don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the work he's done, but if that's the way to play Demo efficiently I'd rather not play it). So my question is, would Demonic Pact uptime make up for the loss of personal DPS with a spec like this?
I am not completely happy with that spec either, the 2 wasted points in ISB annoy me. I'm not in the beta to test it. So I was just wondering if someone has modeled the raid impact of Demonic Pact, and how much uptime we're expected to get with a fully-buffed/talented Felguard. Or is Demo hopeless?
I don't know if you saw the post below Sinnocence post but it turns out the dps increase he saw with that spec was from a bug.
Ah ha! When you spec into master conjuror, the simulator adds 1k damage to your shadow bolt. Heh. If only it was like that in real life eh?
Oh you beat me to it.
Right now things are looking pretty grim for Demo which really sucks because I love Demo spec.
10/07/08, 4:57 PM
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