Yes, it seems like destruction is better than affliction for lvl 70.
But after the big fix push in latest simcraft (mostly mana regen for destruction) it seems destruction scaling is appaling, affliction scales better even with gaining a lot of ratings (crit/haste/stats vs spell dmg). Fortunately the gear levels used are pretty much end game Wrath (3.3k spell power and 700crit/750 haste or 900 crit/1000 haste) or a bit better so there's plenty of time if that turns out to be true.
Nice part is that affliction, while not the best of the best is still very close to fire mages and frostfire mages. Destruction goes down to below balance druids, and the top dps to bottom dps is around 60% more, which is ... erm nothing close to what Blizz is saying they want.
Unfortunately affliction is also based on dot uptime and getting 100% uptime is never really possible but at least 1 spec will be close to the top casters.
I ran Simcraft, trying to simulate a 70 raid environment. Dunno if it all was set perfectly but I actually had around 200 DPS higher with affliction than with destruction (using DS). After that I ran several tests on the CoT dragon (PTR) and they actually confirmed the "No DS" DPS from my simulation.
Now, unless they nerf DS or announce some great change to CB I will be going affliction when the patch hits.
Oh and the whole human error thing applies to the destruction rotation aswell, which I found even harder than renewing dots + haunt.
As far as I know DS's problem right now is (or was) its interaction with Death's Embrace which given all circumstances is a bug and will probably get fixed/changed somehow.
has anyone seen evidence that bosses in WOTLK dungeons have MORE than the level-based resist? Extra resistance that we can remove with CoE could cause a DPS loss if not handled with CoE, forcing us to run it in addition to Earth and Moon.
But I'm not sure if they'd be putting extra resist on bosses (beyond flavor-based resist such as with supremus) because there's still no other ability reducing enemy resistances that I know of.
Also, regarding lvl 70 raiding builds, it feels so far like Destruction is scaling better in a group because of the lack of ruin in Haunt builds. My tests so far (mentioned on my previous post) indicated a backdraft, empowered imp (no demonic power or he runs OOM too fast) and improved CoA can be a pretty good combo.
Anybody else getting different results for level 70 builds? And does anybody have insight about removable resists on lvl 80 raid bosses?
From my combat log parses, I have not seen any more inherent level based magic resistance on the bosses in the beta, compared to what we see currently on live. I think it would be ok to go without the magic resistance reduction of CoE in most fights.
Originally Posted by Medu
Is DS still doing quad damage after 25%? For me it isn't which would mean that affliction would be about equal to destro in theory and destro probably being higher due an easier rotation. It also doesn't suffer from the range/threat issues of affliction.
If I recall, DS is currently bugged and the 4x damage component is missing below 25%. Also, I have not had any threat issues with affliction any more than destruction builds.
Right now things are looking pretty grim for Demo which really sucks because I love Demo spec.
Here's the problem:
Demo uses dots, and all key scaling is too far down the affliction tree.
Demo uses nukes (would use the better of incinerate/shadowbolt) but the scaling talents for these are now too far down the destro tree with the ISB nerf.
Meta can't be buffed anymore (we'll be lucky if the dmg increase component doesn't get nerfed) because of PVP balance.
Where does that leave demo?
Soul link dmg modifier is gone and is not coming back due to current placement in the tree.
Changing demonic tactics back to its original TBC form (+5% dmg) won't happen and would go against demonic pact tree design.
Changing Demonic Knowledge back to 15% max rank might help initially, but % increase spellpower talents don't scale all that well (see Arcane Mage and mind mastery) in general.
hmmm....I guess my solution would be to either to allow some %modifier on total dmg that only demo could get for pve (master conjurer and/or demonic empowerment would both be logical choices). One could argue for more buffs for the pet dps instead; this could also be possible, although it would probably heighten the design problem of "useless without pet/OP with pet" that has been alluded to by the devs regarding hunter and warlock "pet specs".
Overall, the playstyle, cooldowns and procs that demo gets are interesting enough, its scaling on the spells the warlock uses (affliction and destruction spells) that are holding it back atm.
I don't know if you saw the post below Sinnocence post but it turns out the dps increase he saw with that spec was from a bug.
Right now things are looking pretty grim for Demo which really sucks because I love Demo spec.
Thanks, and yeah, I noticed it, but I didn't see anyone proposing an alternate spec. I'm just curious about whether the utility provided by Demonic Pact might be able to partially compensate for Demo's subpar personal DPS, and I don't recall seeing that talent discussed here lately.
Most changes are Warlock-related: Many thanks to Kalle and Scrufola!
One thing that really needs to be made clear regarding the default Affliction profile that uses Drain Soul: I do not model generalizations, but rather specifics: The default raid_80.txt file contains the definition for a specific raid setup. This setup contains MANY Warlocks to showcase the prominent talent/action variations. This means that the number of "affliction effects" on the target is much higher than would be possible by a single Warlock.
I don't buy this.
I mean yes, he will go OOM faster. But that means he is doing more DPS (until he goes OOM), and proccing more Emp. Imp.
There is no fight in which an imp with DP will do less damage than an imp without it. Same mana pool, same mana regen, same mana per cast.
Unless I am missing something?
Well demonic power does not increase the imp's damage per hit.
With it, he will run out of mana in less than 2 minutes even with replenishment 100% of the time (and in a full raid of 25 he won't likely get that unless you have 3 battery classes). Without, he lasts twice as long if not longer.
The trick, in my opinion, is that if he is continually casting, and at a slower rate, there's a better chance for empowered imp procs throughout the fight. The actual damage he contributes across the entire fight won't change TOO much, but remember this is also freeing up 2 talent points to devote to you.
I just don't see the point of speccing him into Demonic Power unless all your boss fights are about 2 minutes long. I put those points into Improved Agony and saw a nice boost in its contribution.
Am I missing something, or does it appear that the only rank of Drain Soul that gains the 400% damage bonus is Rank 6, which is obtained at 77? Does this mean the DS simulations are inaccurate until level 80 raiding?
I think it's pertinent that we figure out the optimal usage of the Imp.
Is it better to let him sputter cast when he runs out of mana, or put him on follow until his mana bar is reasonably refilled? The Imp regens mana very quickly when he isn't casting, even without raid buffs. The relevant data needed to determine this is the Imp's DPS with mana, the Imp's DPS when he goes OOM, the contribution of Emp Imp in both cases and the amount of time it takes for the Imp to regen his mana bar. Note that Demonic Power is also a relevant factor.
Would it be possible to model this in SimulationCraft?
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Thanks, and yeah, I noticed it, but I didn't see anyone proposing an alternate spec. I'm just curious about whether the utility provided by Demonic Pact might be able to partially compensate for Demo's subpar personal DPS, and I don't recall seeing that talent discussed here lately.
I think its because Totem of Wrath makes Demonic Pact obsolete until you get obscene amounts of spell power. In order to be equal to Totem of Wrath a Warlock would have to have 2800 + spell power....and even then the Warlock would not be providing the additional crit that Totem of Wrath provides.
I think it's pertinent that we figure out the optimal usage of the Imp.
Is it better to let him sputter cast when he runs out of mana, or put him on follow until his mana bar is reasonably refilled? The Imp regens mana very quickly when he isn't casting, even without raid buffs. The relevant data needed to determine this is the Imp's DPS with mana, the Imp's DPS when he goes OOM, the contribution of Emp Imp in both cases and the amount of time it takes for the Imp to regen his mana bar. Note that Demonic Power is also a relevant factor.
Would it be possible to model this in SimulationCraft?
Absolutely!
We simply lack the data...... and it is probably quite a pain to extract now that regen ticks are so frequent.
If people have some good ideas..... please come forward!
We'll need inside/outside the 5SR data.
We'll need data points at different Int/Spi values, etc.
I think its because Totem of Wrath makes Demonic Pact obsolete until you get obscene amounts of spell power. In order to be equal to Totem of Wrath a Warlock would have to have 2800 + spell power....and even then the Warlock would not be providing the additional crit that Totem of Wrath provides.
Actually at level 70, the totem gives 140 dmg in addition to the crit. That means that a demon warlock needs to only be at 1400 spell power raid buffed in order to equal the totem. Then you need to figure out how much more damage is required to offset the crit loss. Then again that is only a months worth of raids anyway, but worth noting. it also is relevant until 80 which is when the totem is finally upgraded. Being that the totem at 60-70 is a 20 dmg increase and 70-80 is actually doubling the effect for a 140 increase, it would seem that is a bit overpowered. Which I suppose is why it is so hard for demonic pact to compete.
Sadly there are 3 classes missing from this, Dk because this is for pretty much bust out lvl 80 raiding (IE Sunday November 16th) and I'll let you look at what else is missing. Hunters are missing well, not sure why, but MD's aren't always needed.
Here's the reasoning behind this set up
Note these are not my words
It functions as a ten man raid quite well (sub the resto shaman for elemental if you think you can 2 heal the ten man), and is the most efficient (read least number of persons needed) way to reach every single raid buff and debuff. If you were going to bump it up to a 25 man, your first death knight would probably be unholy, you'd want an additional person who could provide the replenishment buff, and you'd want one or two more pallys to cover every blessing that any given class could want (looking at you hunters, with your love of both attack power, stats, and mana/5).
Warlocks offer the following utility
Curse of recklessness, Replaced by Imp FF, and now Sting
Curse of elements, Mal. Talneted: Replaced by Earth and moon (a must talent to improve to get down the Balance tree) and Dk Ebon Plauge
Soulstones, now thought of as a time saver for recovery by most people than a whipe prevention tool, Plus with 3 druids thats 3 in fight resurrections Plus Ahnks.
Health stones, Sure they are nice, but honestly, SO many people don't even use them any more. Maybe it's a the fault of great heals, or the fault of just assuming heals are there, But we are all guilty of it.
Summon: Sure it's nice, but with summoning stones, fast mounts, and now hopefully dual specs (we'll see this week) the in raid summon is just a nicety and not a must have.
Other utilities that are hardly used:
Curse of weakness, We'll we all remember using it once in our raiding careers but lets be honest, how often is that?
Fel Intellect, Sure it's nice, but lets be honest, it's not something we will be hearing people crying for.
Curse of tongues, Sure it's nice to have around, but between rogues and mages (mainly rogues) that's pretty much solved.
The only Must have utility we will have is once we crest ~3200 (correct me on the number) spell power (yes 2800 is enough to beat the totem, but I figure 400 more is good # to look at for the down time) and start having Demonic Pact .
I know this has all been said in the past, but who else remembers looking for heroics as a lock back when heroics meant something? Oh a warlock? No CC, No thanks! Sure succubus has been helped out I guess if you talent for it (BS IMO should just be as it is) and fear can have a stun, but with no fear juggling, it's just 1 less feather in our cap.
Last edited by amz370 : 10/08/08 at 4:29 PM.
Reason: Totem of Wrath numbers, and grammer
If I recall, DS is currently bugged and the 4x damage component is missing below 25%. Also, I have not had any threat issues with affliction any more than destruction builds.
It won't be a big issue, but afflicition needs to put 17 points into destruction to get the reach+10% threat reduction- not many people will end up doing it imo. So it's threat will be higher and reach less.
I mean if Life Tap is just going to return more mana, why bother with Imp felhunter and DP to begin with? That's three points freed up.
Although on the other hand, DP is a staple for afflictionists, it kinda feels like an identity thing. I'll be pissed if it's not vital anymore, but I want to know so I can talent appropriately, please.
I'm not worried about 10 mans. Raids optimize much less for 10 mans than for 25 mans. And also "raid wide buffs" are much less important the fewer people you have. After all, you could do the same for a 5 man group and find which 5 classes provide the most buffs.
If anything it is good news, as it means every 25 man can easily have all the buffs and not need warlocks to do any of them, resulting in more opportunity to use a damage curse.
If anything it is good news, as it means every 25 man can easily have all the buffs and not need warlocks to do any of them, resulting in more opportunity to use a damage curse.
Very true, BUT my worry is also for those timed runs/achievement runs why bring a lock if they bring nothing? We'll see, I doubt any of us we'll be excluded from anything.
Thanks for pointing out the glass is half full Sydane.
Well demonic power does not increase the imp's damage per hit.
With it, he will run out of mana in less than 2 minutes even with replenishment 100% of the time (and in a full raid of 25 he won't likely get that unless you have 3 battery classes). Without, he lasts twice as long if not longer.
The trick, in my opinion, is that if he is continually casting, and at a slower rate, there's a better chance for empowered imp procs throughout the fight. The actual damage he contributes across the entire fight won't change TOO much, but remember this is also freeing up 2 talent points to devote to you.
I just don't see the point of speccing him into Demonic Power unless all your boss fights are about 2 minutes long. I put those points into Improved Agony and saw a nice boost in its contribution.
Um, no. The difference is 180 mana / 2.5s = 72 mana/second vs. 180 mana / 2.0s = 90 mana/second.
That's a difference of 25%, which means he won't last "twice as long" (+100%), he will last 25% longer. The mana the imp gains is a static amount y = (a-b)t + c. a being his mana regen in combat, b being his mana cost of casting, and c being his initial mana. y is his current mana and t is the time elapsed.
(Well, it looks like that until he goes oom at least.)
And once both specs are oom, it's all the same, there's no advantage to not having DP.
So you will get 25% fewer Emp. Imp procs for 25% longer by not speccing DP, hardly game changing.
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And you'll only be able to spec into something like imp. CoA if you had 53 or more points in Destro before removing DP. Which means you didn't have Imp. Lifetap and Demonic Aegis and Chaos Bolt. (Personally I think that's going to be the spec of choice.)
And once both specs are oom, it's all the same, there's no advantage to not having DP.
If having DP keeps the imp at oom/low mana for a larger percent of the fight, wouldn't he get more of the raid replenishment being dished out to low mana members and therefore get more nukes in?
I tested Curse of Doom compared to Curse of Agony (skilled out in affli tree). And they nearly did the same damage in one minute (that´s 1 CoD until it impacts vs 2 CoA + 8 sec of a third CoA). If i recall correctly, Curse of Doom did a little more than CoA. Can someone confirm this? If yes, is there any reason to spec and cast CoA? This would make an affliction rotation much easier or would open up time windows for Immolate or another SB.
Actually at level 70, the totem gives 140 dmg in addition to the crit. That means that a demon warlock needs to only be at 1400 spell power raid buffed in order to equal the totem. Then you need to figure out how much more damage is required to offset the crit loss. Then again that is only a months worth of raids anyway, but worth noting. it also is relevant until 80 which is when the totem is finally upgraded. Being that the totem at 60-70 is a 20 dmg increase and 70-80 is actually doubling the effect for a 140 increase, it would seem that is a bit overpowered. Which I suppose is why it is so hard for demonic pact to compete.
Actually, the crit bonus is applied to the mob, so we do not lose this when Demonic Pact is up. I just learned this the other day.
10/08/08, 12:05 PM
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