Just saw an interesting notion, 30/0/41 or 31/0/40. Id lean for the former of course, Sbolt spam with Corro and CoA. Any ability to see how the math would work out with the incoming +15% SM change?
I think a 31/0/40 build with 1/3 in Eradication will be higher dps. I think it has been calculated to translate to 2%+ haste.
I know they want us to use Felhunter with affliction builds but I can't help to feel it scales poorly with raidbuffs. Perhaps a 31/0/40 build with imp or succubus will be better. Hard to test outside a raid setting though.
I found that decision somewhat alarming. Instead if fixing lackluster talents (like the whole Conflag/Backdraft/F&B line, for example) they chose to simply buff damage by 5%. I hope there is still enough time left before release for them to have a look at talent interaction.
Agreed that a buff to damage doesn't fix most of our issues, but it does help.
A somewhat related question, given the buff to Shadow Mastery: did they ever fix the "CoD not benefiting from SM" bug?
Are the above assumptions correct, and how do the lock weapon buffs compare to wizard oils?
Not quite. At least not in my experience. During my personal tests I found that a "DA/S&F" build of 0/13/48 or similar does less damage than the "Imp/CB" build with or without backdraft. I have gotten the best solo-DPS values using the conflag build 2/3/56. The kicker is, however, that in a real raid setting where movement, lag and other raid related issues become relevant a backdraft build can perform worse than one without it. It's a given that maintaining a clean DPS-Rotation with conflag is much harder under these circumstances. I'd say that the conflag destruction rotation is easily the hardest of all warlock rotations so far. Affliction does have more DoTs to manage but it doesn't necessarily depend on you nailing that conflag.
Overall, so far, I've gotten the best results using a FG/Ruin build 0/46/15. The Felguard opens the door to the world of melee buffs, thus gaining a ton of DPS in raid. Also the DPS rotation is much easier to manage since you're fine with keeping Agony, Corruption and Immolate up while spamming Shadowbolts. Glyph of Corruption also supports this build nicely since fitting in those instant bolts is no problem for this build.
Regarding weapon buffs: I haven't done any math, but instinct tells me that wizard oil will be better unless you've got demonology's "Master Conjuror" talent. Talented firestones for destruction or demonology builds or spellstone for affliction should be on par with wizard oil but not necessarily better. It depends on your equip, aswell. As said though, take this with a grain of salt as I haven't done any maths on this.
What is the current status of Soulfire, given the recent removal of it's CD?
In particular, if we ignore the soulshard requirement for the moment, would it fit into a rotation as a post-backdraft nuke, or is it's co-efficient still too gimped to make it worthwhile?
I've done no math either, but given that FG/ruin builds seem to rely a lot on crit (ISB, Improved Demonic Tactics and Demonic Empathy, even though the latter is rather useless until they make it proc on white attacks), the Firestone might actually be a better choice for that build. The Spellstone is a quick way to get some haste if your gear doesn't have much of it yet, and, of course, since haste costs less than crit, all things being equal it's a better choice than the Firestone. Adding the 1% damage buff obviously makes these conclusions less clear.
But I think the best thing about these buffs is that they give you a lot of flexibility to compensate for whatever gear deficiencies you think you have. Then again, Ghostcrawler said it's likely they'll be changing the talent, so who knows.
31/0/40 is terrible IMO.
Haunt is more damage than S&F.
Actually, this is the first time I've seen anyone comment on a build that is even close to what I'm using: 38/0/23 This is basically a shadow bolt spam alternative build to the /0/21/40 build. It uses corruption to proc eradication. You can throw in siphon life, too, if you prefer. I like using this, because it's simple. CoE > SB x2 > corruption > Siphon life (if you like), otherwise back to SB spamming. Then you only need to refresh your dots and keep spamming SB. I know Shadow and Flame is the talent which really gives a shadowbolt or incinerate it's punch, but I still get 5k, and occasionally, 6k crits in raids with this build and I'm only in crafted, badge, and ZA gear, with the exception of a couple pieces. The key talents are as follows:
5/5 Shadow Embrace = 10% increased shadow damage when stacked twice
5/5 Shadow Mastery = additional 10% increased shadow damage
3/3 Malediction = 6% increased spell damage with your CoE up, or 3% if you're not the only lock with 3 points in this talent.
(I am one of only two locks that usually can make raids consistently, and the other lock is demon spec'd.)
3/3 Eradication = gives your corruption ticks a 10% chance to proc 20% increased casting time for 12 seconds
2/2 nightfall + corruption glyph = 8% chance for corruption to proc instant shadowbolt
As I said before, I like this build, because it's simple. I like eradication over having to conflagerate to get 3 spells with 30% increased casting time. I can usually do 5-6 shadowbolts in 12 seconds, which, in my opinion, is better than having to recast immolate and then only having 2 spells left that benefit from the backdraft proc. My current haste rating puts me at 10% haste, which gives me 2.27 SB cast times (really impressive I know). When Eradication procs, it goes down to roughly 2 seconds. And with heroism it's even better. The only down side is that the proc is random, as opposed to controlling when you want it by using conflagerate.
3/3 Cataclysm + major shadowbolt glyph + fel hunter + dark pact = very efficient mana supply
And then I still have:
5/5 ruin
1/1 Devastation to keep my crit chance halfway decent (my crit rating is not very high, but there are enough buffs in raids to compensate)
2/2 Destructive reach to gain the 10% reduction in threat from spamming shadowbolt
I'm not in Sunwell yet, and I'm barely in BT and Hyjal. So I can't say anything from the perspective of someone who is massively decked out in gear. I'm hoping this spec is just as useful as going full destruction or 0/21/40. Currently I'm not really a fan of going full affliction. I don't like using dots on trash, or having a chance that they get bumped off of bosses during boss fights. I know haunt can be effective, but it again makes you rely on a convoluted spell rotation that I'd rather not have to worry about. I hope I don't epitomize the stereotypical lazy warlock caster. If you guys think I should switch builds, please let me know. And I apologize for the long post. I realize everyone here knows what each talent does, but for me, this was the best way to present my build and why I like it.
So is it my imagination or does Immolate not really trigger Molten Core? Or does MC have an abysmal proc rate? As shadow destro I can proc Shadow Mastery (ISB) quite frequently, MC on the other hand when spec'd fire destro seems to be MIA. Obviously I'm not casting SBs as fire, and since Immolate is a DoT, it should be triggering MC but it sure doesn't appear to be.
So is it my imagination or does Immolate not really trigger Molten Core? Or does MC have an abysmal proc rate? As shadow destro I can proc Shadow Mastery (ISB) quite frequently, MC on the other hand when spec'd fire destro seems to be MIA. Obviously I'm not casting SBs as fire, and since Immolate is a DoT, it should be triggering MC but it sure doesn't appear to be.
The wording confused me a bit too. What it means is that shadow DD and shadow Dots have a 15% chance each time they deal damage to proc molten core. No fire spells, dots or otherwise, are supposed to proc MC. As far as I've seen and tested, that is the case at the moment.
Several other posters have stated you can get about 80% MC uptime by keeping CoA and Corr running, which has been pretty accurate for me. If you must use only one of those two spells, use CoA since it ticks every two seconds, and results in better uptime.
Finally some feedback (and lots of it!). I’m happy they are taking steps to adjust dps (nerfing physical and buffing us 5%), but I still think they need to look at Chaos Bolt. IIRC they removed the ability to penetrate immunities (Shield & Iceblock, correct me if I’m wrong). It’s really an underwhelming 51 pt talent. In PVE, it only does marginally more damage than an incinerate and is really not worth having on your bar (ok maybe not true but it’s not very effective).
I think they should make the 51 pt talent a passive skill, something like “Improves the critical strike damage bonus of your destruction skills by 50% and they ignore resilience”. This would give us some burst damage in pvp that other classes have and not pigeon hole us into Demo or SL/SL builds if we want to pvp. And instead change soul fire into more of a pyroblast type spell (powerful with cooldown/high mana cost).
The new changes will put demonology further behind. The nerf to physical damage will hurt the felguard's pve dps, probably by more (percentage-wise) than other physical dps classes due to no armor penetration gear or talents.
I'm not sure I like the direction taken. GC's post saying destro was pve and demo pvp was either poorly worded, or goes against the original statement that all trees would be viable for both pve and pvp.
I'm fine with Demo doing less dps, the demonic pact buff is amazing (at least right now at lvl 70), and should be quite good after Naxx25 at lvl 80 as well. However, the amount less that demo is doing currently is disturbing. The changes to warlock dps will only increase disparity bewtween the afflic/destro and demo dps, while still not bringing demonology to even being competetive with hybrid dps.
The new changes will put demonology further behind. The nerf to physical damage will hurt the felguard's pve dps, probably by more (percentage-wise) than other physical dps classes due to no armor penetration gear or talents.
I'm not sure I like the direction taken. GC's post saying destro was pve and demo pvp was either poorly worded, or goes against the original statement that all trees would be viable for both pve and pvp.
That's not what he said. GC said "we do think it is much less the case now that Demo = PvP only and Destro = PvE only." Not the clearest sentence, I agree, but it indicates he feels they're trying to make Destro more useful for PvP and Demo for PvE.
The felguard nerf will hurt, though. Do hunter pets have any sort of armor penetration? If they do, then we could make a case for giving the felguard some way of getting it (replacing a talent, or maybe even a glyph). And I still think they should change Demonic Empathy so it procs off white hits as well.
Demo nerf won't hurt that much really. So the Felguard goes from 600 dps to 540. Hunters will be going from 4000 to 3600. Don't forget the Felguard will get 5% more crit which in turn procs more demonic pact. The extra 10 points at 80 will help a 0/46/15 build a lot more than a 0/3/58 build.
If you must use only one of those two spells, use CoA since it ticks every two seconds, and results in better uptime.
If you have the Glyph, then Corruption can be quite handy for setting off both Nightfall and Molten Core. The extra SB from NF will also be able to proc Molten Core as well (but still a lower uptime rate than CoA). Of course, if you're a Fire Lock you might not be interested in using a GCD for SB at all.
If you have the Glyph, then Corruption can be quite handy for setting off both Nightfall and Molten Core. The extra SB from NF will also be able to proc Molten Core as well (but still a lower uptime rate than CoA). Of course, if you're a Fire Lock you might not be interested in using a GCD for SB at all.
I do have it, and have been using corruption constantly, but nightfall is being finicky at the moment. Sometimes it procs twice in a row, sometimes not for a dozen mobs. It's probably just my perception, but I may consider the CoA glyph instead when it's available. This is coming from a demo lock btw, so I may just use both glyphs, particularly for pvp.
But speaking of the GCD being worthwhile, I'm really hoping they do look into demonic empowerment more. I don't necessarily want a copy and paste of bestial wrath, but it should be a tad more powerful to say the least. I often forget to use it because it just doesn't seem to make any difference. In fact, barring any other haste effects, it basically just gives him 2 extra swings in a 15s period. Maybe if it also halved the cool down of cleave for the duration, then we'd have something.
Did a little testing with demo in a raid of Gruul/Mag/SSC last night, and noted that immolation aura was ticking for an average of 800 on a raid boss. This equates to 12,000 damage (800/second for 15 seconds). That means that if you are already doing 1500 DPS, for those 15 seconds you are getting around 1800 dps from the 20% meta buff (1500x1.20), but you're now also getting an extra 800 DPS, for a total of 2600 DPS for those 15 seconds.
Wow!
Over the course of a fight, meta will net from immolation aura 12,000 damage over 180 seconds, or an extra 66.67 DPS, plus the 20% bonus to your other spells.
Quite nice to me, especially for those "burn him down" moments. The only caveat to this is that you have to be in melee range the entire 15 seconds for this to work. There are two ways to make this work: 1) open the fight right there with the rest of the melee and your guard, or 2) stay at range, meta, charge, and then stay with the melee. Moving away from the boss will net a DPS loss.
The feel of demonology raiding will be VERY different from affliction/destro, and I would encourage people to try it out.
Over the course of a fight, meta will net from immolation aura 12,000 damage over 180 seconds, or an extra 66.67 DPS, plus the 20% bonus to your other spells.
Quite nice to me, especially for those "burn him down" moments. The only caveat to this is that you have to be in melee range the entire 15 seconds for this to work. There are two ways to make this work: 1) open the fight right there with the rest of the melee and your guard, or 2) stay at range, meta, charge, and then stay with the melee. Moving away from the boss will net a DPS loss.
The feel of demonology raiding will be VERY different from affliction/destro, and I would encourage people to try it out.
Moving away from the boss doesn't have to be a DPS loss, just make use of your instant cast spells and the gcd while moving. Reapply CoA, Corruption, and Lifetap if you need to. With the threat tanks are pulling now though it doesn't seem like there's much need to move out of melee range unless you're trying to avoid AoE effects.
Regarding Demo I think an overhaul of the top tier talents is in order. Demonic Empathy just doesn't work out imho unless you buff the numbers up significantly. That might result in heavy dps bursts which is really not what PvP wants right now. Maybe they should remove the "on crit" portion of it and just give it a flat proc chance on hit. This would also detach the talent from Improved Demonic Tactics so that it can stand on its own feet.
They could then go and adjust Metamorphosis a little bit and we'd be almost there.
Originally Posted by Krathis
Moving away from the boss doesn't have to be a DPS loss, just make use of your instant cast spells and the gcd while moving. Reapply CoA, Corruption, and Lifetap if you need to. With the threat tanks are pulling now though it doesn't seem like there's much need to move out of melee range unless you're trying to avoid AoE effects.
There are fights where you can't really afford to do this. Felmyst comes to mind, or Illidan if you leave aside the heavily nerfed status of Bosses for a sec. To me 12k doesn't seem all that much either. That's like 3 to 4 bolts depending on crits. If you take into account the time it takes to charge the boss and throw up the aura and maybe add movement back to your original position... hmmm... I don't think it's worth it. But that's just me of course. I'll try it out regardless Sounds like fun.
Last edited by TangoDigital : 10/22/08 at 6:43 PM.
Regarding Demo I think an overhaul of the top tier talents is in order. Demonic Empathy just doesn't work out imho unless you buff the numbers up significantly. That might result in heavy dps bursts which is really not what PvP wants right now. Maybe they should remove the "on crit" portion of it and just give it a flat proc chance on hit. This would also detach the talent from Improved Demonic Tactics so that it can stand on its own feet.
They could then go and adjust Metamorphosis a little bit and we'd be almost there.
There are some very weak talents in demo currently. Demonic empathy is somewhat weak like you say: 3% extra for the next three spell only when your pet crits for three talent points is somewhat weak. By comparison, malediction is a 3% at all times buff, and buffs CoE.
Demonic empowerment is coming off the GCD, so that's a big plus. The felguard version is especially useful for making sure demonic pact stays up. Demonic tactics is getting a major buff (10% to crit now instead of 5%), so we can focus more on spell damage now to make demonic pact stronger. As far as being attached to demonic empathy, this is more a "theme of the tree" thing. The goal is to make your pet crit at least once every 10 seconds, and to max out your spellpower for demonic pact. Imp Demonic Tactics is a required talent for demo raiding now.
Originally Posted by Krathis
Moving away from the boss doesn't have to be a DPS loss, just make use of your instant cast spells and the gcd while moving. Reapply CoA, Corruption, and Lifetap if you need to. With the threat tanks are pulling now though it doesn't seem like there's much need to move out of melee range unless you're trying to avoid AoE effects.
I'm not suggesting you HAVE to move away from melee range, but there are spells bosses cast that are melee unfriendly (Maulgar's whirlwind, Archimonde's doomfires, etc). I do agree with your method of moving out of melee though; ideally, you should have tapped yourself to full mana before you pop demo for maximum effect. If you burn hard, you'll find yourself low on mana again, and you can use the moving away time to re-tap yourself if necessary.
All in all, I see 0/51/15 +5 being a very powerful raid spec, if played properly.
Can someone verify that SOUL LEECH is working?? I have both SOUL LEECH and ADVANCED SOUL LEECH, and I am seeing ADV SOUL LEECH proc'ing mana return, but I am NOT seeing SOUL LEECH proc'ing... ???
Demonic Empathy isnt just weak its broken. The pet wont crit often enough for the player to have a permanent 3% damage boost and the felguard cannot always use all 3 charges even if the player crits all the time since cleave has a 6 sec cooldown. I realize that its not always fair to compare talents across classes but I cant help but notice how weak it is compared to (the now raidwide) ferocious inspiration.
If you have the Glyph, then Corruption can be quite handy for setting off both Nightfall and Molten Core. The extra SB from NF will also be able to proc Molten Core as well (but still a lower uptime rate than CoA). Of course, if you're a Fire Lock you might not be interested in using a GCD for SB at all.
"quite handy" is in the eye of the beholder. As destro, you only have that 4% chance. That's 1.04 chances to proc Molten Core per tick of Corruption instead of 1.00. Corruption is 4 chances every 12 seconds unglyphed, so that's 47.8% uptime, and 49.1% uptime with the glyph.
Math:
(1 - (.85^4)) vs. (1 - (.85^4.16))
With CoA:
unglyphed: (1 - (.85^10)) = 80.3% uptime
glyphed: (1 - (.85^10.16)) = 80.8% uptime
CoA alone:
(1 - (.85^6)) = 62.3% uptime
Originally Posted by faidwen
Can someone verify that SOUL LEECH is working?? I have both SOUL LEECH and ADVANCED SOUL LEECH, and I am seeing ADV SOUL LEECH proc'ing mana return, but I am NOT seeing SOUL LEECH proc'ing... ???
Very strange. This is on live btw.
Yes, both are working on Live for me. Looking at both of them in my Recount right now.
So Blizzard did not forget the Warlock completely, that is nice, I like the upcoming changes, though, as some of you guys mentioned, this is no solution for our "tricky" Destruction and Affliction trees.
In the light of the coming talent changes, do you guys think a 31/33/7 spec could be viable?
I would test it with that great simulationcraft, but I honestly lack of time and knowledge to work myself through the files to test that spec.
One could take the points from Isb and put them to Eradication, too.
I thought about this, but I honestly don't think Demo is good enough. Destruction is simply better. Demonic Power is probably more pet damage than Unholy Power, Ruin is more DPS than Master Demonologist, and Shadow and Flame easily beats out Demonic Knowledge. That just leaves Imp Fel Armor as the only PvE-relevant talent that's left, and it's not going to make up the ground you've already lost, plus additional losses from not having talents like Devastation.
I'm currently wondering if hybrid Affliction/Destruction is viable. It seems better to me than straight Destro or straight Affliction. The obvious build is 31/0/40. This is a very simple rotation, just keep up Corruption, Siphon, and CoA and cast Shadow Bolt otherwise.
However, I think if you really wanted to go for the epic min/maxing route you could do a 28/0/43 build with Conflag, Molten Core, and Backdraft. The rotation for this would be an utter nightmare however, you have to keep up four DoTs, cast Conflag as much as possible without clipping your Immolates, and switch from casting Shadow Bolt to Incinerate whenever Molten Core lights up.
10/22/08, 7:15 AM
Sounds like fun.
Similar Threads
