It takes 50% haste to hit the GCD cap of 1 second, not 33%. That's something no one even gets close to passively, and while you might ping it during heroism, you can keep it in mind then, not gear for it. It's essentially a non-issue. In addition, since at least 40% of your damage is coming from a filler spell that takes considerably more haste than that to cap off, it doesn't become completely worthless even if it does decrease in value at that point.
It takes 50% haste to hit the GCD cap of 1 second, not 33%. That's something no one even gets close to passively, and while you might ping it during heroism, you can keep it in mind then, not gear for it. It's essentially a non-issue. In addition, since at least 40% of your damage is coming from a filler spell that takes considerably more haste than that to cap off, it doesn't become completely worthless even if it does decrease in value at that point.
I think theres some confusion...im not positive if its you are me having it however.
The most you can reduce the global cooldown is .5 seconds to 1 second. So 33% haste would reduce the 1.5 global cooldown timer to 1.0. 50% haste would reduce it to .75 seconds but thats not possible as the minimum cap is 1.0.
If the cap could be reduced a total of 1.0 (down to .5 seconds) like what you seem to be saying, the haste required would be 66%. I'm pretty sure of the 1.0 minimum number.
Granted, more haste will help your filler spells I didnt say it was useless...but putting haste on affliction gear past that point makes the weight of the point cost much less valuable. Consider however that raid buffs will be adding a good bit of haste to us, even without eradication going off, so deliberately passing on say higher crit gear over more haste seems at that point to be a poor choice.
I think theres some confusion...im not positive if its you are me having it however.
The most you can reduce the global cooldown is .5 seconds to 1 second. So 33% haste would reduce the 1.5 global cooldown timer to 1.0. 50% haste would reduce it to .75 seconds but thats not possible as the minimum cap is 1.0.
If the cap could be reduced a total of 1.0 (down to .5 seconds) like what you seem to be saying, the haste required would be 66%. I'm pretty sure of the 1.0 minimum number.
Granted, more haste will help your filler spells I didnt say it was useless...but putting haste on affliction gear past that point makes the weight of the point cost much less valuable. Consider however that raid buffs will be adding a good bit of haste to us, even without eradication going off, so deliberately passing on say higher crit gear over more haste seems at that point to be a poor choice.
It's you. This is the formula for spell haste:
New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))
If you take 1.5 seconds as your base casting time and solve for % Spell Haste, you'll end up with the correct number of 50% spell haste necessary to reduce the GCD to 1 second.
deliberately passing on say higher crit gear over more haste seems at that point to be a poor choice.
Actually, deliberately doing anything pursuant to some kind of 'magic number' for any stat is a poor choice. Even when stats do cap, and there's really no forseeable horizon where any lock spec will cap on haste, the cap isn't a target that must be achieved to be effective. All stats have a DPS contribution that changes as your gear changes so the best course with any gearing decision is to find the DPS contribution with your specific gear set and use that to determin the relative strength of upgrades. Blindly shooting for arbitrary magic numbers is never the answer.
It's you. This is the formula for spell haste:
New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))
If you take 1.5 seconds as your base casting time and solve for % Spell Haste, you'll end up with the correct number of 50% spell haste necessary to reduce the GCD to 1 second.
Argh. Strange Math, you have beaten me again. I figured haste was a reduction of casting time, so 33% haste = 67% of the base casting time of the spell.
I have a concern about raiding affliction in Wrath expansion: the debuff cap.
From what I understand it is still 40 debuffs per boss. I currently put up six to seven debuffs on a target (Curse of Elements, Siphon Life, Corruption, Haunt, Unstable Affliction, Shadow Embrace and occaisionally Immolate). Other members in my guild are desiring to play affliction in raids once Wrath hits.
Is it still going to be desirable to only have one affliction warlock in a raid or could three or four work out well?
As in, are we going to be knocking debuffs off all night and gimping each other?
The debuff cap is going to be a huge issue especially for Affliction locks, but it's been bothering me for destro as well due to Molten Core. I know a while ago someone posted saying MC was meant to be a talent for demonology locks, but having looked into it, it's really just for destro fire locks.
The debuff issue comes up since, in order to make MC proc enough to make it worth it, you need to be casting both CoA and Corruption, so 2 affliction debuffs in a destruction build. The issues I've pointed out before on the PTR forum (affliction spells don't compete with destro spells due to lack of talents, are in the tree which destro will most likely have 0 pts in for raiding, don't get the range of destro spells nor the hit talents, and will scale poorly with gear compared to the destro talents). Molten Core also forces destro locks to use at least 1 more debuff slot than they should. They really need to make Molten Core proc off fire spells because its current proc just has too many faults.
In relation to the question about Affliction locks, I just can't see more than 1 affliction lock in a raid especially when you have a DK or 2 with their debuffs up.
Sharpening Stones and also Wizard Oils have been discontinued. While they were something nice to use once in a while for most people for many raid guilds they were simply another burden to the cost of raiding. They also caused some issues in that they only helped certain classes and took away some of the uniqueness of other classes who were able to imbue their weapons with temporary enchants such as rogues and warlocks.
Wow now that's a big change! No more debate about whether our new stones are better or worse than wizard oil.
Also, you can't apply old world oils to yourself if you're higher than level 70 apparently. So I guess that coupled with the new firestones/spellstones means we're going to be one of 3 classes with imbued weapons.
Wow now that's a big change! No more debate about whether our new stones are better or worse than wizard oil.
Also, you can't apply old world oils to yourself if you're higher than level 70 apparently. So I guess that coupled with the new firestones/spellstones means we're going to be one of 3 classes with imbued weapons.
Can we only apply the stones to ourselves? I thought at one point you could enchant other people's weapons like oils. If not, I guess it is a buff relative to other casters...but did we need it?
Can we only apply the stones to ourselves? I thought at one point you could enchant other people's weapons like oils. If not, I guess it is a buff relative to other casters...but did we need it?
I don't think you could ever do that. There was speculation that you might be able to, but I never saw it pan out. You definitely can't on live.
I will also go ahead and say that a buff relative to non-shamans and non-rogues is never a bad thing.
It's a bit disingenuous to say it's a buff relative to other casters. Shamans are balanced around windfury, rogues are balanced around poisons, and now we're going to be balanced around stones (although the difference is much less). At level 70 oils still exist so it's a null result, and at level 80 balancing still isn't done.
Nonetheless, I do think they're cute and will enjoy other classes being envious. Warlocks seems to have a rather absurd amount of raw stats from self-buffs.
Warlock concerns (Source) Soul Shard system not even touched
I have said many, many times that this is something we're looking at right now. I am going to be less sympathetic to QQ that we don't read your posts if you don't read ours. (Source)
Damage overall is too high, arenas feel "scrubfriendly" and even more luck-based
We think there is some truth to this. The recent resilience change was intended to help. We also expect health and mitigation to increase much faster than damage increases as players hit 80, but it is definitely a concern right now in PvP.
Completely reliant on having 11 points in Demo, maybe 17 (or even more).
This is not a major concern for us. As I have also posted, good talents are good. If you didn't want them, they would be bad talents. If you had so many good talents that you had a hard time deciding, I'm pretty certain the response would be that the trees are bloated.
Shadowflame is a pathetic addition, it's as if they've run out of ideas and don't want to bother thinking of any good ones. We're already strong enoguh at AoE, damnit. I mean really if you want to give us dragon's breath from mages, just give us the green version and call it green dragons breath with all the same goodies of dragons breath.
Shadowflame fulfills a very specific role. If you hadn't noticed, we are pushing Destro more towards fire and Affliction more towards shadow. Shadowflame is one of the few spells that crosses over because it does both types of damage (which should have obvious ramifications for a lock).
Teleport spell again pathetic (Can't used while stunned) I mean really Blizzard you give us a good Defensive spell after all this time and you do it half assed. I mean we actually have to set this spell up in order to use it. Tell you what make it so that Pallys have to cast a spell first before they can bubble, make it so Rogues have to do something before they can vanish/COS, make it so Mages have to cast a spell before doing ice block or blink.
We think Demonic Circle is going to end up being a big deal. It's not a trivial spell to use -- it's a thinking person's spell. It takes planning and some intuition. I suspect it is being underestimated because so few people have actually gotten to use it yet.
Affliction
Complex PvE rotation is impossible to accomplish in PvP; you have to do far more work than before to do the same relative DPS as in BC - the spec is more reliant on spells with cast times.
We think the complex rotation is very hard to pull off in PvE too and seems to almost mandate a mod, which is a problem. We have some long-term plans to change Affliction around a little bit.
Why did you add glaringly PvE-based talents and changes like Master Conjurer, Demonic Empathy, Demonic Pact, Imp. Demonic Tactics, and others when you expect this to be our PVP tree?
There are no PvP trees anymore. My comment was that Demo may not have the sustained dps of the other two trees in PvE, but at least it would still be taken for PvP. We need to see if the survivability offered by the tree offsets its lower dps or not. (And before anyone responds that you would raid with 10 health if it would improve your dps, I'll remind you that your dps when dead is 0.)
Chaos Bolt: Could have fixed our problems with quick, reliable burst damage, but was ultimately changed into a "add this into your rotation for a few more DPS!" spell.
Destro's rotation was among the least interesting in the entire game. It needed major help.
I would like to remind people of the testing that Kalle did on SnF in the other thread. I went and did a couple of tests myself to confirm his hypothesis and it seems to indeed follow the new formula he presented.
To give a short recap for those who have missed it:
SnF is no longer an additive effect, it is now a multiplier of the coefficient by 20%
Meaning that the new values would be:
Incinerate with (Emberstorm and SnF) is: 2.5/3.5 * 1.2 * 1.1 = 0.942857
Shadowbolt scaling (With SnF): 3.0/3.5 * 1.2 = 1.02857
Please remember to use these numbers in theorycrafting from now on since the old ones would lead to false conclusions ^_- All in all, this means that Incinerate is overvalued at the moment, same with shadowbolts but shadowbolts isn't affected by it as much as incinerate would be. I wonder if these are the numbers inserted into the latest Simulationcraft builds or if they still use the old formula?
If this is true, this could be main reason why warlock dps is much lower. Incinerate lost around 6% damage coefficient and shadow bolt lost around 3% damage coefficient. That's quite a lot when you consider 2.5k spell power for incinerate.
I sincerely hope this is a bug. SnF is one of the main reasons why destruction warlock can sustain their dps. If this is nerfed future do not bid well for fire destruction locks.
On the other hand, I wonder if this change will tip things into shadowbolt spam's favor once again.
I'm fairly certain that shadowbolt, back when ISB was 15%, actually did equal if not slightly superior dps than incinerate. Of course the nerf to ISB to 10% made incinerate superior. I wonder if the 3% difference in coefficient will make shadow bolt the superior spmmable spell, especially in a build like 31/0/40.
Damage overall is too high, arenas feel "scrubfriendly" and even more luck-based
We think there is some truth to this. The recent resilience change was intended to help. We also expect health and mitigation to increase much faster than damage increases as players hit 80, but it is definitely a concern right now in PvP.
OK I’m not in the beta and have not done arena at 80 but is our damage output really too high? Or is that just a comment on all players in arena. Because based on what I see at 70, we really are not putting out too much damage.
OK I’m not in the beta and have not done arena at 80 but is our damage output really too high? Or is that just a comment on all players in arena. Because based on what I see at 70, we really are not putting out too much damage.
The original poster was not really talking about warlock damage (being too high).
* Warlock: Corruption and Immolate 11/03/2008 11:00:51 AM PST
The coefficients of these spells were hotfixed last Thursday I believe.
Corruption's coefficient went from 0.156 to 0.20.
Immolate's coefficient went from 0.13 to 0.20.
This ends up being a reasonably significant dps buff to all 3 specs. In our preliminary testing, Demonology may have benefited the most.
Please recognize the changes these numbers will have on your class when making subsequent posts.
*crumples up all his old theorycrafting notes*.
Well, this seems to make immolate definately worth putting into a affliction rotation...especially with molten core buffing it even more.
Strangely this is probably not going to solve anything however. The Rotation is still so complex it basically requires a mod which is what they are trying to 'fix'. more damage just means now we really need to keep them all up.
Strangely this is probably not going to solve anything however. The Rotation is still so complex it basically requires a mod which is what they are trying to 'fix'. more damage just means now we really need to keep them all up.
Any sort of priority queue (I don't like 'rotation' since it gives the wrong impression of being able to castsequence) will require a mod to optimize until that mod is actually built in to the default interface. The culprit lies with the interface, not the casting system. The principle is not complex at all: cast the spell that has most recently expired. But the default interface doesn't do timer sorting or ghost timers, and cooldowns are visually separate from debuffs, so that's why we need helper mods.
Any sort of priority queue (I don't like 'rotation' since it gives the wrong impression of being able to castsequence) will require a mod to optimize until that mod is actually built in to the default interface. The culprit lies with the interface, not the casting system. The principle is not complex at all: cast the spell that has most recently expired. But the default interface doesn't do timer sorting or ghost timers, and cooldowns are visually separate from debuffs, so that's why we need helper mods.
I think it is even more complicate than a priority queue with constant priorities over the whole fight or simple recast what drops from the target.
For example:
1. Drain Soul will have a low priority above 25% target health, but at higher priority than standard filler spell, if the target health is below 25%.
or
2. Skipping special spells during bloodlust, because the gcd is limiting the gain from haste. Same for Backdraft.
or
3. Preponing the filler spell or life tap, because it deskews the debuffs to have a larger uptime, if two debuffs dropping concurrently.
If you think the maturities of the debuffs as blocks, playing a affliction warlock is like playing tetris.
What does the coeffizient change mean for destruction?
Anybody here, who has done some number crunching already?
Sure, we will get more damage from immolate, but is not conflagrate obselete with this damage buff of immolate?
What about Corruption? I did not use it in my actual destro rotation would it be worth to add it now?
We made some debuff calculations in our guildforum and the result was that with 1 or 2 dk there will be hardly enough slots for one affliction lock, probably not even that.
I wonder if any Blizzard designer has thought about this problem.
In my opinion we should start thinking about raiding destro or demo, if debuffs keep falling of the mob, affliction is not really usable.
I would like to know what some of you think of the build 0/40/31. The spec would be raiding with an Imp out (doing damage) and casting Corruption, Immo, then incinerate spam (+/- Conflag) then repeat. With this talent set up, you would get the following talents.
From Deomonology
30% more From Fel armor (which should scale well at 80)
Master Demonologist (5% fire damage, 5% crit with Imp)
Demonic Knowledge, giving the High spell damage of demo tree
Demonic Tactics, 10% Crit for you and your imp.
Plus the survivability from all the other demo talents you'd pick up
From Destro
Bane (hasted Immo)
MC (occasional 10% fire damage)
Cataclysm
Ruin
Devastation (5% more crit)
emberstorm (15% fire damage)
Final point could also be spent in demon for Felguard if desired, conflag, Backlash, or w/e.
Combining the key talents, this spec would give a total of 20% to fire damage with your imp out, 20% to Crit rating with your imp out, the Hiigh spell damage with your imp out, 100% to crit damage, Hasted Incinerates from emberstorm, as well as the Imp Fel armor that should scale Very will with lvl 80 Spirit. A modification might be to just Immolate and spam incinerates, but adding corruption will help proc MC, giving you periodic addition 10% to fire damage.
I like the spec because it's very simple to execute the spell rotation, and there seems to be very high potential to Scale with all the +% talents.
Blizard has buffed a deep talent in each of the talent trees to increase our damage. By grabbing Demonic Tactics and Emberstorm, we take advantage of Two of these buffs. Also, by using Corruption and Immo, we will also be taking advantage of Blizz's most recent buff to immo and corruptions Coefficients.
I could see 0/41/30 being a viable alternate demo build, it would be much like the current 0/46/15 builds, high personal dps but no raid synergy, spamming incinerate instead of shadowbolt. The felguard does massively more damage than the imp ever will, going 40 points into demo isn't likely to ever be as worthwhile as getting and using the felguard. The only things you are losing are Meta, Imp Demonic Tactics, and Demonic Pact, and you are gaining 15% fire damage, 5% crit, and some additional immolate damage. Probably a reasonable option for those that want to spam fire instead of shadow but still be demo, and certainly a less complex rotation than destro currently has.
I could see 0/41/30 being a viable alternate demo build, it would be much like the current 0/46/15 builds, high personal dps but no raid synergy, spamming incinerate instead of shadowbolt. The felguard does massively more damage than the imp ever will, going 40 points into demo isn't likely to ever be as worthwhile as getting and using the felguard. The only things you are losing are Meta, Imp Demonic Tactics, and Demonic Pact, and you are gaining 15% fire damage, 5% crit, and some additional immolate damage. Probably a reasonable option for those that want to spam fire instead of shadow but still be demo, and certainly a less complex rotation than destro currently has.
Considering that Imp has a better MD buff (+5% crit), a significantly better Demonic Empowerment buff & Demonic Power, I'm not so sure that the Felguard is a superior option with that build.
At level 70 the felguard is three times the dps as the imp. I really can't see 5% crit offsetting that. It may be a viable option to switch to if a fight is extremely melee unfriendly, but that's about it. Now it's possible the felguard at 80 will scale poorly enough that the imp might catch up more, but if that is the case then demo will be so far behind destro you wouldn't want to use either build anyway.
At level 70 the felguard is three times the dps as the imp. I really can't see 5% crit offsetting that. It may be a viable option to switch to if a fight is extremely melee unfriendly, but that's about it. Now it's possible the felguard at 80 will scale poorly enough that the imp might catch up more, but if that is the case then demo will be so far behind destro you wouldn't want to use either build anyway.
Your imp does 400? My felguard does 550-600. Most imp parses I've seen were in the 200 dps range. Even if the difference is from 400 dps to 600 dps, 5% crit isn't worth 200 dps. Plus, if you're keeping up CoA and Corruption for Molten Core, the 5% to all damage from the Felguard is more than the 5% fire damage from the imp, as well as the fact that you get more spell power from Demonic Knowledge (not a lot more, but more).
10/30/08, 12:59 PM
Similar Threads
