I m going to assume its a foolish dream to wish a 51 pointer that has some use in PVE??? I started wow for the PVE and now it seems they are balancing everything around PVP. 60 to 75% of the new talents are exclusively or primarily designed for pvp...
instant cast with current spell damage is going to kill the spell for PVE. Even with a very high base dmg, inci scale a 92% and SB at 104, thats no match for chaos bolt ( not including the fact that haste will have next to no effect on it).
I m going to assume its a foolish dream to wish a 51 pointer that has some use in PVE??? I started wow for the PVE and now it seems they are balancing everything around PVP. 60 to 75% of the new talents are exclusively or primarily designed for pvp...
instant cast with current spell damage is going to kill the spell for PVE. Even with a very high base dmg, inci scale a 92% and SB at 104, thats no match for chaos bolt ( not including the fact that haste will have next to no effect on it).
It's a 1.5 sec cast spell. Everything is listed as instant cast from some of the spell data mines, it's not true, there are people who can play who confirmed it's 1.5 second cast. Of course, that doesn't effect it's scaling and makes it even worse for PvP. I'm just wondering where in their research did they come to the conclusion that destruction sucks for pvp because of bubble, ice block, and CoS? Mass Dispel will always be the preferred method to handle bubble and ice block...it's spammable, and once removed everybody can continue FF'ing the target. A lock blows his Chaos bolt at a bubbled pally, if it doesn't kill him he'll just wave back as he heals himself to full in the next 8 seconds. Same with a mage ice block, in organized pvp somebody will be healing the FF'd mage. 1.5 seconds is plenty of time for a heal big enough to land (bet it has a travel time too) to ensure the mage survives. And what's the point of chaos bolting a CoS rogue who is probably already close to full health? I'd rather decimate/fear him..that might allow me to live.
I m going to assume its a foolish dream to wish a 51 pointer that has some use in PVE??? I started wow for the PVE and now it seems they are balancing everything around PVP. 60 to 75% of the new talents are exclusively or primarily designed for pvp...
instant cast with current spell damage is going to kill the spell for PVE. Even with a very high base dmg, inci scale a 92% and SB at 104, thats no match for chaos bolt ( not including the fact that haste will have next to no effect on it).
Being instacast doesn't affect how it scales with spell damage from a sustained DPS mindset - the reason Incinerate and Shadowbolt will scale better with spell damage is that they have talents that change the spell damage scaling (Shadow and Flame, Bane and Emberstorm) Chaos Bolt will get 42.8%(1.5/3.5) of spell damage per cast, untalented shadowbolt gets 85.7% per cast, but takes twice as long to cast, so in three seconds you get 85.7% of spell damage from shadowbolt, or 42.8% twice with Chaos Bolt. Basically all DD spells get 28.57% of spell damage per second of cast time (before talents/special modifiers).
What makes a difference for Shadowbolt and Incinerate is that they get talents that reduce cast time, but still scale as the unmodified cast time (Bane means shadowbolt gets 34.28% per second, Emberstorm puts Incinerate at 31.75%/sec) Then Shadow and Flame adds another 1.2 multiplier. So after talents, Incinerate is at 38.1% of spell damage per second of cast time, Shadowbolt is 41.1%. If they were to add Chaos Bolt to Shadow and Flame it would be at 34.3%/per second which is a little behind Incinerate, but easily offset by the higher base damage until huge +damage levels. As for haste - it affects Soulfire and instants the same, its a pure percentage change - except for the delay between spells which works in favor od slower spells.
What worries me more about Chaos Bolt is the Mana Cost, as it changes the number of times you have to life tap, and of course the mess that is Demonic Sacrifice.
I've left out crit/hit/demonic sacrifice since those can all equally affect either spell.
Of course it depends on how much the base damage scales up at level 80, but it would well wind up being much like Fire Blast: Fire Blast doesn't scale nearly as well as Fireball, but its base damage is high enough that you simply never reach the point where it's not still a DPS increase to use it (though it is a mana dump). This spell could well find its way into the Destruction DPS rotation. (FWIW, Fireball scales about 58% from 60 to 80, while Fire Blast scales about 72%.)
What worries me more about Chaos Bolt is the Mana Cost, as it changes the number of times you have to life tap, and of course the mess that is Demonic Sacrifice.
Only reference I can find to mana costs is the rank 1 version, the one you can get at level 60, which starts at 715 mana. I'd imagine there would be 2-3 more ranks of this spell on the path to 80. Given the average 70+% increase in mana costs we see in going from level 70 to level 80 ranks, and the <30% mana cost increase we saw going from level 60 to 70 ranks, I would not be surprised if the final rank Chaos Bolt comes in at 1500 mana or more. Basically a CB is going to be half a life tap, maybe more (there are no new ranks of life tap in the files). Mana cost is going to be pretty nasty for all our spells.
edit: Quick and easy back of envelop calc
Level 60 shadow bolt is 370 mana
Level 60 Chaos Bolt is 715 mana
Max rank Shadow Bolt currently is 715, or a 93% increase. Est. max rank Chaos Bolt would be around 1380 using the same ratio.
Not sure what damage multiplier you can pick up going down the arcane tree, but remember to get Chaos Bolt means foresaking Demonic Sacrifice...a 15% hit. The only talent that would help it's damage is emberstorm. It still isn't worth it for PvE. As mentioned before...nothing can really help the 51 pt destruction (or Affliction) talent in PvE as long as DS exists as a 21pt talent without being ridiculously OP in PvP.
You are wrong. The problem is not about 51-pointer taken along, it's about all points that aren't in 50-point core. The problem is lack of viable spec like 7/7/57 where you would gain some DPS from using Corruption, some DPS from extra 7 points in Destruction, that could outweight DS. Sadly, Destruction Fire PVE is something along the lines of War Pirate :: Talent tree Warlock and has a few talents that feel like fillers to me.
Originally Posted by dexia
Fire is the only way to go for destruction, which makes me kind of sad as I liked the shadow aspect of the class, separate and distinct from mages.
I would argue about this to some extent. Shadow Bolt still has some tiny scaling advantage. Now, Improved Shadow Bolt nerf tones Shadow to the level of Fire. Eternal Flames don't really buff in any way pure Fire (Incinerate spam), they make Incinerate replace Immolate in long DPS rotation. I mean that it's not unlikely that non-DS build will spam Shadow Bolts and throw in an Incinerate every 10 seconds or so. Remember, Immolate is desirable even with current Shadow 0/21/40 until very late gear, now you would change that Immolate every X seconds to Incinerate and chances are that you win more than lose. We don't even know how Eternal Flames work, if refreshing will fail in general (as it does on live realms, talking mostly about Ignite) it won't let Immolate tick at all if you spam Incinerate or Searing Pain.
Originally Posted by dexia
It's a 1.5 sec cast spell. Everything is listed as instant cast from some of the spell data mines, it's not true, there are people who can play who confirmed it's 1.5 second cast. Of course, that doesn't effect it's scaling and makes it even worse for PvP. I'm just wondering where in their research did they come to the conclusion that destruction sucks for pvp because of bubble, ice block, and CoS? Mass Dispel will always be the preferred method to handle bubble and ice block...it's spammable, and once removed everybody can continue FF'ing the target. A lock blows his Chaos bolt at a bubbled pally, if it doesn't kill him he'll just wave back as he heals himself to full in the next 8 seconds. Same with a mage ice block, in organized pvp somebody will be healing the FF'd mage. 1.5 seconds is plenty of time for a heal big enough to land (bet it has a travel time too) to ensure the mage survives. And what's the point of chaos bolting a CoS rogue who is probably already close to full health? I'd rather decimate/fear him..that might allow me to live.
Chaos Bolt is fairly nice nuke that we wanted for 4 years that we could cast without some second thoughts like "I hate Soul Shards" or "Maybe I better keep Immolate ticking". Next is amount of damage. Level 60 rank with level 70 bonus spell damage in PVP gear and Emberstorm would average around 1.7k damage. Not even Backlashes do that much (though they are close). You mention Mass Dispel: It's not instant, it doesn't prevent that ability completely, can be resisted (though unlikely) and there are viable setups without Priests. And now if that thing is removed by MD in 3 seconds before the target is at full health damage from CB would be at the very least helpful. As for Rogues it doesn't only deal with CloS, but also with Cheat Death.
On the matter of Curse Mastery (2 Curses):
There is no big deal about putting such talent as Affliction 51-pointer because Cripple as it is pretty much beats all curses put together. Also there is little practical benefit to put 2 curses on everyone in PVP, it may cost too many global cooldowns. Maybe you want to put CoEx + COT on your main target if it's healer, but that's pretty much it, maybe CoA + random thing, but that's not that big deal I think, again, think about this cool new Cripple.
Meanwhile I'd like to add that Curses, their effects and numbers feel rather Molten Core'ish. They need some merging.
Generally thinking about CoS+CoE into -X all resistances, +10% all magical damage taken
CoW+CoR into -armor -ap
CoR could boost someone's damage and someone's crit, both physical and magical, though I'm not sure what exactly on who, it's either target deals more damage but is crit more often, or target crits more often, but takes more damage.
In game chaos bolt is listed as instant cast. Unless you have someone in the actual f&f alpha leaking you information it is definitely instant cast.
The 2nd isb nerf basically destroys every spec but firelock from being viable for raiding, I find it hard to believe that is intended.
Yeah that 2nd nerf seems to pretty much be a screw you to shadow priests, it doesnt hurt me as a 0/21/40 lock so much as i am usually on non damage curse and i never cast corruption. Still very very horrible though.
The 2nd isb nerf basically destroys every spec but firelock from being viable for raiding, I find it hard to believe that is intended.
Well shadow destro might still be possible (or some shadow/fire combination), it's Affliction (and shadowpriests) that becomes less viable (or more in need of DOT scaling). Hopefully the dmg coefficients will be reverted to un-nerfed numbers - although that still wont solve the haste/crit issues.
I don't know where the information came from, but in the current Alpha Build the description for Improved Shadow Bolt is the same as it always has been (Outside of being 3/6/9/12/15% now). I'd guess this is the usual case where someone sees the "non-periodic damage" part of the ability and does not realize this only affects charges being consumed. It's happened before when someone was going through spell data.
For reference, here's rank 5's alpha description:
Your Shadow Bolt critical strikes increase Shadow damage dealt to the target by 15% until 4 non-periodic damage sources are applied. Effect lasts a maximum of 12 sec.
While here's the live description:
Your Shadow Bolt critical strikes increase Shadow damage dealt to the target by 20% until 4 non-periodic damage sources are applied. Effect lasts a maximum of 12 sec.
buff /bŹf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
āverb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I don't know where the information came from, but in the current Alpha Build the description for Improved Shadow Bolt is the same as it always has been (Outside of being 3/6/9/12/15% now). I'd guess this is the usual case where someone sees the "non-periodic damage" part of the ability and does not realize this only affects charges being consumed. It's happened before when someone was going through spell data.
If you look at the Shadow Vulnerability debuff, the text now specifies non-periodic damage:
Spell 17800
Name: Shadow Vulnerability
Description: Your Shadow Bolt critical strikes increase Shadow damage dealt to the target by $17800s1% until 4 non-periodic damage sources are applied. Effect lasts a maximum of $17800d.
Description2: Shadow damage increased by 15% from non-periodic spells.
I believe that's a change from the current wording.
Lhiv, the descriptor doesn't enforce the "won't buff DoTs" theory.
"Increases Shadow Damage Dealt [by x] until 4 non-periodic [etc]"
The only place non-periodic seems to pertain to is when the buff stops. Unless my syntax interpretation is wrong, all it says is what we knew all along; 4 non-periodic sources will stop it's action, and before that it'll increase shadow damage. Even if there is a change in syntax, it could be simply for a re-wording or a consistency-check. It doesn't necessarily mean DoTs are not affected.
Description2: Shadow damage increased by 15% from non-periodic spells.
I'm pretty sure that's a change (and it was picked up by what I assume is a diff script that generates the change lists we're seeing at wikidot and elsewhere), but I haven't got access to a browser pointed at an older database to compare with.
It is definitely a change it would have been noticed earlier if it didn't get changed. I don't see why they would put this description change in unless infact DoTs did not get the bonus anymore.
It is definitely a change it would have been noticed earlier if it didn't get changed. I don't see why they would put this description change in unless infact DoTs did not get the bonus anymore.
I'm assuming that "Description 2" is the wording that appears on the debuff tooltip?
Yeah, that's the description that appears on the debuff. The two descriptions seem to be conflicting, so I would reserve judgement. Deep-destro looks like it's becoming a primarily-fire tree, which to me means that the shallow-destro talents should synergize with affliction. Such a change would be an affliction nerf at this point more than a destro one (and perhaps a shadow priest nerf). Even if it was intentional, it's the sort of thing that gets tried in patch betas and doesn't make it to live.
Man they went from wanting to equalize fire in destro to making it dominate destro if this is the case. They made it a "shadow mage" tree to a "fire mage" tree, lol just a different type of fire mage now.
Man they went from wanting to equalize fire in destro to making it dominate destro if this is the case. They made it a "shadow mage" tree to a "fire mage" tree, lol just a different type of fire mage now.
It really seems like their intent is to encourage a Destro rotation that starts with Immolate, casts Shadow Bolt until Molten Core procs, then casts Incinerate until the buff expires, then returns to Shadow Bolts, etc. With one Immolate cast on a Molten Core proc to get it ticking 20% higher, and with the option of Chaos Bolts tossed in periodically if appropriate given available mana.
Problem is it's a hell of a balancing act to make it actually advantageous to cast that way, and it doesn't look like they've succeeded in striking that balance.
The main issue, afterall, is that something like that will hardly beat +15% dmg on one school.
Another issue is, that it does not look like many mages will specc into deep fire anymore, which kinda means the end of destruction to me, at least in the early raids (take gruul/maggi as a tbc equivalent). One exception might be that they change the way items are balanced in wotlk, i think we face some major change here because of the "item normalizsation" and alot of talents already point towards that. On the other hand, If we wont see any haste and such things on our items like we did in tbc, affliction might be favored again in the beginning of wotlk and i could imagine, because of the lacking support for our fire school, destruction would catch up quite late, if it will ever, to affliction. I didnt do the math of course, i doub that would work out well enough at the moment without knowing any spelldmg values, encounter designs and so on.
Oh by the way: I still hope they will come up with a pve relevant 51-pointer. While Cripple and Metamorphosis might have some use under certain circumstances, i doub they will ever beat a 21-pointer on the long run. I dont expect some major breakthrough, but at least something that would make up for demonic sacrefice. Something I always favored was a spell that works like a shadowform for us warlocks. Lets call it "Felfire Form" (i wish the skull of guldan effect were permanent ) or something along those lines (sound actual pretty silly ..). If Blizzard really wants us Warlocks to have a Spell that breaks through every absorb/resist/immune mechanic, give this spell a 30%-50% chance to turn our next shadowbold/incinerate spell into a "chaotic" spell (or just skip it anyway) BUT also give us , lets say ~10-12% more fire&shadow dmg. It should by no means be equal to demonic sacrefice (we could still have an active pet) but it should at least be comparable and therefore make an interesting choice as an alternative to demonic sacrefice. That wouldnt just allow us to finally skip DS, it would also allow us to take some utility along with out reducing our dmg by 15%. Also I dont think this Spell would be overpowered in PvP: We only have a certain chance to get an isntant cast and that instant cast has a cooldown (backlash), the extra dmg wouldnt hurt that much, because we still are not able to cast many things while under focus fire and the chance that the "chaotic" affect applies would also require alot off 2.5 sec casts which anyone hardly is able to perform. Oh well I dont care for PvP alot so I might be mistaken here, just my 2 cents.
P.S.forgive me for my writing, please. English is not my first language so i just try to get along with the few remains of what I've learned at school
Another issue is, that it does not look like many mages will specc into deep fire anymore
That depends entirely on the actual functionality of Burnout. If it works as badly as it could, then Fire mages will be Arcane/Fire, but don't worry, they'll still be putting up Improved Scorch. If it works as well as it could, then deep Fire will still be the top sustained single-target DPS spec for Mages, with Arcane mages producing higher burst on demand, and Frost mages producing higher burst based on cooldown timers and some utility.
Oh by the way: I still hope they will come up with a pve relevant 51-pointer. While Cripple and Metamorphosis might have some use under certain circumstances, i doub they will ever beat a 21-pointer on the long run.
Metamorphosis strikes me as great for AOE -- indeed, a Demo 'lock could probably substitute for a Paladin in tanking AOE trash. He'd need to be wearing Demon Armor rather than Fel Armor for the purpose, but he could shift to Demon Form, aoe shadow bolt and hellfire, and then other casters AOE from range.
The main issue, afterall, is that something like that will hardly beat +15% dmg on one school.
Another issue is, that it does not look like many mages will specc into deep fire anymore, which kinda means the end of destruction to me, at least in the early raids (take gruul/maggi as a tbc equivalent). One exception might be that they change the way items are balanced in wotlk, i think we face some major change here because of the "item normalizsation" and alot of talents already point towards that. On the other hand, If we wont see any haste and such things on our items like we did in tbc, affliction might be favored again in the beginning of wotlk and i could imagine, because of the lacking support for our fire school, destruction would catch up quite late, if it will ever, to affliction. I didnt do the math of course, i doub that would work out well enough at the moment without knowing any spelldmg values, encounter designs and so on.
I don't know why many warlocks QQ about mages 'not going fire'. Everything so far is supportive of fire spec. The problem is that the new talents, depending on how they work, are both a dps and dpm loss compared to other talents available for the same talent points. If Burnout gives 25% more crit dmg to the whole 150%, then mages will unequivocally all spec deep fire. If not, then mages will spec 33/38/0 (ie: not use any new deep fire talents because they are all extremely lackluster). Arcane viability is basically impossible the predict, since it hinges upon too many variables to give any kind of meaningful assessment. Will 2pct5 get nerfed ? Will moonkin really give +18% arcane damage ? How will moonkin-windfury work (which is highly likely to favor fire spec, or AM spam spec) ? How will mana regen look like? Things are not really shaping up for non-fire specs to be really competitive -- you're just reading too much noise from mages being ecstatic about frost tree and arcane tree, rather than the currently available math.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
That depends entirely on the actual functionality of Burnout. If it works as badly as it could, then Fire mages will be Arcane/Fire, but don't worry, they'll still be putting up Improved Scorch. If it works as well as it could, then deep Fire will still be the top sustained single-target DPS spec for Mages, with Arcane mages producing higher burst on demand, and Frost mages producing higher burst based on cooldown timers and some utility.
We will see, there is hope of course but at the moment it doesnt look like the mages in my guild plan on playing fire at all. Though time will tell.
Metamorphosis strikes me as great for AOE -- indeed, a Demo 'lock could probably substitute for a Paladin in tanking AOE trash. He'd need to be wearing Demon Armor rather than Fel Armor for the purpose, but he could shift to Demon Form, aoe shadow bolt and hellfire, and then other casters AOE from range.
That depends on what kind of trash we are talking about. The 5 minute cooldown makes something like tidewalker trash impossible (except if you bringt 3+ demo locks along) and trash like we see it in Hyjal would be impossible because of the 45 sec duration. I think of that skill more like another panic button for us warlocks, because you gain full health/mana when activating your metamophosis. I appreciate the dreadlord look though.
Edit:
@manly: As I said, I might be under the influence of our mages who quite hype about frost/arcane. They also didnt prove as a reliable source of support to allow us play fire already, so I dont expect much in wotlk either.
Well im sure cripple will be changed, as it is a giant screw you button to mages, and frankly most classes in pvp (and we all know how blizz loves to base things on pvp). But on a side note about its wording, specifically the pacifying part, does that mean it will cancel out beastial wrath on pets possibly?
We will see, there is hope of course but at the moment it doesnt look like the mages in my guild plan on playing fire at all. Though time will tell.
Honestly, it's going to depend on how a few talents actually function, but it really looks to me like Mages are going to be in the happy position of being able to perform quite well in whatever spec they prefer to play. Now of course, if I'm right about that, then Destro 'locks are going to have to be prepared to deliver damage based on whatever mages happen to show up that night. With only 2.5 slots per class, and several viable specs per class, basing your spec around a particular spec of a particular class may be an exercise in futility.
A lot of changes seem to be aimed at making synergy more of a nice thing when it happens rather than something you build around, with a lot more self-reliance built into each class. Frost mages may be the top mage damage-dealers if there's a Death Knight putting Frost Strike on the target, and bottom mage damage-dealers if there isn't, for example -- with the gap being fairly small either way.
06/01/08, 3:01 PM
) or something along those lines (sound actual pretty silly ..). If Blizzard really wants us Warlocks to have a Spell that breaks through every absorb/resist/immune mechanic, give this spell a 30%-50% chance to turn our next shadowbold/incinerate spell into a "chaotic" spell (or just skip it anyway) BUT also give us , lets say ~10-12% more fire&shadow dmg. It should by no means be equal to demonic sacrefice (we could still have an active pet) but it should at least be comparable and therefore make an interesting choice as an alternative to demonic sacrefice. That wouldnt just allow us to finally skip DS, it would also allow us to take some utility along with out reducing our dmg by 15%. Also I dont think this Spell would be overpowered in PvP: We only have a certain chance to get an isntant cast and that instant cast has a cooldown (backlash), the extra dmg wouldnt hurt that much, because we still are not able to cast many things while under focus fire and the chance that the "chaotic" affect applies would also require alot off 2.5 sec casts which anyone hardly is able to perform. Oh well I dont care for PvP alot so I might be mistaken here, just my 2 cents. 
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