I am very saddened to see what they have done to the Destruction tree in terms of PvP. As if they hadn't beaten it down enough in Burning Crusade to nothing more than a raiding tree, now they reduce it's use completely. Affliction will be so much better it is not even funny. If you cannot tell, I am a destruction PvP'er, and it is really sad to see what has happened to this tree from Burning Crusade to Wrath of the Lich King.
However, I am very happy with the Demonology changes. Raiding destruction does get boring, and I have been waiting for Demonology to be buffed to raiding level usage. Only thing that strikes me as odd... is they use the Imp for most of the powerful buffs. The Imp has hardly enough HP to survive a mage's arcane explosion more than once or twice, let alone raid aoe damage. They must be planning to increase it's health a lot more or it will be dead quite a bit. The talent that gives 3% more HP and damage is nice to see, considering now warlocks will have a similar tree to a hunter's Beast Mastery tree, instead of just buffing the pet and the master.
As for Affliction, I am hoping that refreshing Corruption upon Shadow Bolt hit talent will not refresh the duration to 18 seconds... as we all know that's a huge DPS loss right there. Soul Depletion looks amazing, it's about time we've had some kind of melee counter.
As for spells... Haunt is interesting. It could be like a secondary heal, kind of like what I use Death Coil for in raids. Although I don't think it would heal for nearly as much if there was only one target.
Overall, I am pretty disappointed with what I've seen with wotlk warlock talents. I hope something will change for the better.
I don't trust Blizzard to buff our demons sufficiently to make them viable in most, if not all raid situations. Thus, I would be very disappointed to see DS disappear entirely.
I feel that taking DS out of the 21 point slot and moving it further down the demonology tree so that affliction and destruction warlocks would have to sacrifice more than just the lackluster top tier talents in order to get to DS would suffice to reduce the impact of DS in our talent trees.
I'm not too excited about Haunt...I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be. A DPS spell for locks? A survivablity spell?
Warlocks
Haunt
Druids
Infected Wounds (bear, cat)
Lock Jaw (cat)
Mage
Frostfire bolt (DoT portion, may also have an ignite DoT?)
Winter's Grasp
Priest
Mind Sear (channeled)
Warrior
Rend actually buffed
bloodbath
shield break
Deathknight
A TON of possible new debuffs.
Still to come...hunters, rogues, paladins, shamans
These are all new debuffs you could see on bosses/trash in 25 man raiding. It's pretty daunting if you are considering Affliction, because even though I never had a problem with debuff limits when I was affliction in TBC, I'm seeing easily 10-15 more debuffs going up from other classes. This will be an issue going forward.
I don't trust Blizzard to buff our demons sufficiently to make them viable in most, if not all raid situations. Thus, I would be very disappointed to see DS disappear entirely.
I feel that taking DS out of the 21 point slot and moving it further down the demonology tree so that affliction and destruction warlocks would have to sacrifice more than just the lackluster top tier talents in order to get to DS would suffice to reduce the impact of DS in our talent trees.
But that's the issue with DS... if it's deep in the tree, then all the talents that go to buffing your pet and building up synergies between you and your pet are wasted when you sac your demon. But if it's too far up the tree, then DS becomes a must have in any competitive non-Demo build.
I'm not too excited about Haunt...I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be. A DPS spell for locks? A survivablity spell?
One possible function of it is a post-life-tap self-heal without the DPS hit of Drain Life, but I'm not sure there's really a major call for such a thing.
Mage
Frostfire bolt (DoT portion, may also have an ignite DoT?)
Winter's Grasp
These are all new debuffs you could see on bosses/trash in 25 man raiding. It's pretty daunting if you are considering Affliction, because even though I never had a problem with debuff limits when I was affliction in TBC, I'm seeing easily 10-15 more debuffs going up from other classes. This will be an issue going forward.
Winter's Grasp basically means that Frost Mages will need two slots instead of one. However, as with Winter's Chill, Winter's Grasp is probably going to be a single shared slot, so this may actually decrease debuff usage in some situations (since both Frost Mage debuffs are shared, whereas Fireball DOT and Ignite debuff slots are per-mage). Basically, no matter how many Frost mages you've got, they won't use more than 2 slots, whereas Fire mages will use (2 * number of Fire Mages) + 1 debuff slots.
Frostfire Bolt will have its own separate DOT, and can also proc Ignite if specced for it (we think, anyway). However, if a Fire spec mage is casting Frostfire Bolt, he's not casting Fireball, so he's not really using any more slots than he would have otherwise. If a Frost mage is using it, the target is Frost-immune, so it'll be adding one DOT per mage, but Winter's Chill and Winter's Grasp won't be showing up. The only time it's likely to actually be adding debuffs over and above what a mage would normally be putting on the target is if it proves to work well with an elementalist spec, in which case you might see a single mage putting up both Fire and Frost debuffs -- but again, his Frost debuffs would be shared with other Frost mages, and his Fire debuffs are no different than what would be put up by a Fire mage.
So, in short, I don't think these are going to result in an increase in mage debuff slot consumption most of the time.
The 51 point affliction talent has been changed in the alpha. I don't want to post too much because I'm not sure if it can get me banned, but you should check it out for yourselves. It's pretty much the awesome debuff that affliction has wanted, but it looks very pvp oriented (and massively OP) and I doubt it will affect bosses (as on some bosses it would make fights ridiculously easy). To be honest unless they add some damage increasing buff to the new 51 destruction talent (which has also been changed) or just make the spell ridiculously awesome than I see now reason not to put at least 21 points in demo for raiding.
The 51 point affliction talent has been changed in the alpha. I don't want to post too much because I'm not sure if it can get me banned, but you should check it out for yourselves. It's pretty much the awesome debuff that affliction has wanted, but it looks very pvp oriented (and massively OP) and I doubt it will affect bosses (as on some bosses it would make fights ridiculously easy). To be honest unless they add some damage increasing buff to the new 51 destruction talent (which has also been changed) or just make the spell ridiculously awesome than I see now reason not to put at least 21 points in demo for raiding.
If they havent changed it again, we already know about these changes.
@Dexia: You forgot Shadowflame, didint you ? I kinda like the concept of it, makes us more viable for burst-needing-situations like parasites and such things, but of course it has little use at all during most encounters. Though what about the range of it ? Do we know any details about the range of it so far ?
Haunt simply looks like a decent PvP heal, that could be useful farming as affliction, or in 5 mans, e.t.c as well. Not every new spell/talent has to cater to raiding or blow your mind with how awesome it is.
I'm not sure why people bash demonic sacrifice so hard though. I'll be the first to admit that i think its at least partially to blame for why the talents that cap destruction aren't PvE friendly, but i think it serves a key role in the trees as well. Just simply, it seperates PvP destro(yea lol) from PvE destruction, and i'm not sure i see that talent leaving anytime soon. There's nothing wrong with the concept that if you want to put out the maximum damage possible, we require you to give up a little utility. Right now, the issue isn't DS at all, the issue is what form will talents like molten core and torture take, to spice things up in the destruction tree a little. You don't need to touch DS to fix those talents.
What's the point of having PVP abilities on top of a PVE tree though? Separating Destruction into a PVP spec that's the weakest of any of them, and a PVE spec that's the best out of them is pointless. Right now (the live game) they could remove Shadowfury from the game and not bother replacing it and it would have zero impact on gameplay.
I'm not sure why people bash demonic sacrifice so hard though. I'll be the first to admit that i think its at least partially to blame for why the talents that cap destruction aren't PvE friendly, but i think it serves a key role in the trees as well. Just simply, it seperates PvP destro(yea lol) from PvE destruction, and i'm not sure i see that talent leaving anytime soon. There's nothing wrong with the concept that if you want to put out the maximum damage possible, we require you to give up a little utility. Right now, the issue isn't DS at all, the issue is what form will talents like molten core and torture take, to spice things up in the destruction tree a little. You don't need to touch DS to fix those talents.
I don't think there's a problem with the idea that you must take a particular talent within a particular tree to tune your spec for particular content. I do think there's a problem with having a mandatory talent for a tree 21 points into a completely different tree, however. When a pure Destro spec is entirely unable to compete with a Destro/Demo hybrid, something needs fixing. Having DS/Destro work and be competitive is fine; having it be the only way to be competitive, not so fine. The problem is, given how strong it is, how can you adjust talents like Molten Core and Torture so that they bolster a deep Destro build without also improving a DS/Destro build? It might be doable, but I'm not seeing how at this moment.
What's the point of having PVP abilities on top of a PVE tree though?
Well, it's pretty obvious at this point that they're trying to shatter the very concept of "PvP tree" and "PvE tree," though admittedly they're having more success with some classes than others.
I think the problem with balancing DS is that in any scenario except a raid. losing a pet is a big deal. A talent that is worth it for a raider to take would be a significant bonus to anyone who got actual use out of pets, unless the talent was somehow "raid only" which seems against Blizzards general philosophy.
What's the point of having PVP abilities on top of a PVE tree though? Separating Destruction into a PVP spec that's the weakest of any of them, and a PVE spec that's the best out of them is pointless. Right now (the live game) they could remove Shadowfury from the game and not bother replacing it and it would have zero impact on gameplay.
That is a problem.
Yeah, what lhivera said pretty much. You can't exactly say fire mages will miss dragon's breathe either.
@lhivera's post:
There are obviously some talents that are so powerful, your PvE build is always going to include this. Warriors are a prime example, and so are rogue's. This is something most classes have to deal with, though it might not be quite as deep as 21 points. I don't find anything fundamentally wrong with having to go 17 points into assasination at a minimum to compete, or 17 points into arms as a fury warrior. This is basically the same concept. I can't possibly put 50+ points into combat, and then start whinning that i'm doing less DPS than my rogue counterpart, that's purely my fault.
Talents like molten core and backdraft are fine exactly as they are for say a pvp spec. You'll be casting corruption anyway, and its a chance to grant you 10% more damage for 6 seconds that could make or break a match.
Whats needs to be changed is basically how useful those talents will be, as far as returning corruption to your action bar in a raid. I really don't think it would take much of a change to get them workable either, certainly nothing that would make them overpowered PvPwise.
Sacrificing utility for power is one thing, sacrificing something class-defining for power is another thing entirely. And honestly the power gain is unreasonable. I'm normally the first one to caution against comparing talents from different classes, but we get a 15% damage boost for a 21-point talent while combat rogues get a 10% boost on ~40-50% of their damage as a 41-point talent. The talent is basically saying that your pet is about 15% of your class, but the ability to make that tradeoff is overpowered until that figure becomes closer to true.
Low tier-assassination is a great example, and I agree that placing a smattering of points into an off-spec tree is okay, neither Assassination or Arms removes half of your classes integrated design on the path to a small upgrade in your damage. Also neither prevents you from taking a majority of points into your "core" tree, same with mages. Mages probably wouldn't cry about losing Dragon's Breathe either (or a cRogue losing Surprise Attacks for that matter) but it does give them a few more (limited) options for other game play without a significant cost in damage.
But that's the issue with DS... if it's deep in the tree, then all the talents that go to buffing your pet and building up synergies between you and your pet are wasted when you sac your demon. But if it's too far up the tree, then DS becomes a must have in any competitive non-Demo build.
I agree with you. However, if I were a demonologist, I'd like to get at least some return on my talent points when faced with a situation where I couldn't keep my demon alive. DS would at least give me some sort of buff, and if it were high enough in the demonology tree, it might not be quite so attractive to our affliction and destruction brethren.
As an alternative, DS could turn into a dual use talent. Getting the talent gives some sort of passive buff to our pets when they're alive, and provides the standard sacrifice buff when one must sacrifice one's demon.
So ya I got suspended and I wouldn't be suprised if the other wotlk post creators also got suspended.
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Demonic Sacrifice being any later would cause more whines and become totally worthless talent. Right now you spec 21 points into Demonology and all your raiding benefits are Demonic Aegis and Demonic Sacrifice itself. Deeper there are more pet-related talents so pets become more needed and alive pet would surely be better than dead one, even if that pet is Imp.
As for pets for other specs they could just receive some love and become viable. I had some thoughts about it.
Imp
Castable in combat Phase Shift. The most basic change would let you have your Imp avoid damage if you can expect it.
Never dying Imp. Imp could just use some form of Cheat Death mixed into Phase Shift, clearing all debuffs from him for best results. This would just make keeping him alive easier than with just castable in combat PS.
Ghost. Instead of dying Imp becomes a ghost which limits his power, but after a set period of time he returns to life, with full health and mana.
Permanent Phase Shift. Now Imp doesn't leave Phase Shift under any circumstances, unless specifically ordered to.
Depending on choice for keeping alive and some early talents like Improved Imp and Demonic Power Imp may become a DPS'ing pet, in particular for Destruction Warlocks, possibly accounting for up to 5-10% extra damage, pretty decent amount to compete with Demonic Sacrifice. Such Imp could also become a bit useful in PVP, despite lack of good PVP utility.
Voidwalker
Voidwalker could just get something to stay alive easier. This may come somewhere in Affliction. Actually Dark Pact could also heal pet. Or Siphon Life could heal pet in addition to Warlock. Voidwalker doesn't hit strong, but his DPS is mana-independant, so he can be used as mana battery, and it would still be some basic amount of DPS.
Succubus
As people already suggested she could use some AOE damage reduction. Then we can add some extra AOE avoidance into Invisibility, this would work great with Demonic Empowerment: you heal her to 100%, make her invisible and she can avoid an AOE ability or several, then you send her to attack again, she takes some damage again and you can use Demonic Empowerment again to save her. With some changes she would be able to deal some decent damage and survive relatively easily for middle and deep Demonology builds, in fact also competing with Felguard in deep ones.
Felhunter
As for Felhunter I'd change it from current mostly anti-caster state to a more general purpose utility pet, specialized in particular in its own survival. First we could change massive resistance with either Shadowfiend-like avoidance, or with Shield Wall-like damage reduction (maybe a bit lower), yes I really mean that Felhunter would be harder to kill that Soul Linked Warlock. Then we can add some basic adjustment to Devour Magic, maybe removing "Magic" part and changing effect appropriately. Then we change Spell Lock into Action Lock: pacifies and silences enemy, interrupt if it's casting, disarm if it's attacking (with reasonable definition of "attacking"). Lastly that crap called Tainted Blood needs a good redesign. Of course Felhunter isn't going to start soloing everything, we reduce his damage nearly to zero, maybe replacing his attack with Tainted Blood, so instead of dealing damage he would apply some cool debuff to the enemies.
Felguard
Felguard seems to be most suitable for everything as it is, but of course he should get some improvements together with other pets.
So the roles of pets and DS would be something like this:
Imp: Destruction PVE pet, in some situations (or more like based on encounter) Demonology PVE pet.
Voidwalker: Of course a bit of tank, and Affliction PVE pet.
Succubus: Demonology PVE pet for some encounters, perhaps some small-size PVP pet and CC pet.
Felhunter: PVP pet for everyone. Utility might be useful for Destruction for PVE and grinding (depends on what would we get as Tainted Blood)
Felguard: Demonology pet for everything, but not necessarily always best (Imp or Succubus might work better for some encounters)
DS: pretty much just for 21-point Demonologists. Just a bit later Master Demonologist and Demonic Knowledge should make pets better than DS. No longer really competes with 51-pointers in other trees, instead competes with pets.
The more I think about it, the more Demonic Sacrifice, in its current version, just doesn't make sense as a talented ability. There's no other place to put it than demonology (imp/succubus version only might make sense as a destruction talent), but there's a contradiction in a talent in the pet tree that removes your pet. The talent is only useful when speced into specifically, rather than as part of a demonology off-spec actually aimed at improving the pet. A destro-demo build, were you to build one, would actually be quite functionally different than a destro-DS build. The SL-SL build, and any affliction-demo voidwalker build you could care to invent, is quite different than any affliction-DS DoT-grinding build you would ever come up with. So basically... DS effectively sits outside all three talent trees. 21 points in demonology could resonably be treated as a fourth (third and a half-th?) talent tree.
I see a few potential solutions. I already mentioned one, make it a destro talent (and remove the other sacrifices, or possibly alter them... crit/haste?), which while leaving destro as the top-end spec, is at least thematically consistent and in theory opens up the possibility of more spec variability and the inclusion of affliction spells back in the rotation. The second is to make it a base class ability, which removes the conundrum of specing into it. It would almost certainly get nerfed, probably to 10%, but would possibly let affliction catch up on the raid scene a bit. I would also recomend more motivation for keeping the pet active, like buffing Dark Pact and generally improving pet DPS scaling or survivability.
The final possibility is a complete redesign (or removal... basically the same). The talent design could be somewhat retained, and thematically consistent with the demo tree, if the sacrifice is an in-combat ability for a short-term buff rather than an effectively passive long-term buff. Since demo warlocks lose more from losing their pet, the ability to turn-in one that's about to die makes sense, especially if it's automatic on pet-death (but still trigerable on demand), and/or combined with fel domination like I mentioned above (this would probably want an internal cooldown).
Flamingcloud, we all owe you one for taking a hit for the team. Thankfully your ban is a mere 3-day affair rather than an outright I'd say you're a hero amongst warlocks, but that'd probably make you a Litch, which in turn would probably make you a Deathknight... So instead I'll say thanks for the Alpha leak effort you made.
What Pintofbrew said. And I think these efforts by Blizzard are largely an exercise in futility; also, "malicious?" Either Blizzard misunderstands the meaning of the word or is seriously confused as to the intent in play here.
The more I think about it, the more Demonic Sacrifice, in its current version, just doesn't make sense as a talented ability.
...
I would also recomend more motivation for keeping the pet active, like buffing Dark Pact and generally improving pet DPS scaling or survivability.
Dark Pact really has the same purpose as DS: "Hmm, warlock pets aren't viable in raids so lets make a talent to solve the problem." In DSs case, that removes the pet entirely and gives the warlock a buff. In DPs case, since it is nearly exclusively used with the imp in raids, it really ends up doing roughly the same thing. Your imp does nothing but passively buff your partly and you get "buffed" via extra mana. It could sacrifice your pet to give your partly a STA buff and reduce the health lost and increase the mana gained from LT while active and the results would be identical. The only reason DP isn't part of every raid build is DS is earlier in its tree, DS is better than DP and DS and DP are mutually exclusive.
I really think it would be best for warlocks if talents to "make pets work" in raids don't appear in each tree. Instead, I think pets working in raids on their own is a vastly better and more enjoyable solution. Sadly, based on the alpha notes that doesn't not appear to be the path Blizzard is following.
I still think the most logical solution to the DS problem is to reverse its position with Dark Pact. The two talents would then better compliment their tree's purpose and uses while creating a more logical PvE and PvP build set.
For instance a 31/0/40 Demonic Sac and S&F would give significant PvE buffs (esp to shadow flavored spells), while providing a raid-viable method of speccing for SE, Imp LT, CoX, and the all important Imp/Emp Corruption all the while maintaining the nukage of S&F. And seeing as how the LK talent trees are currently built around PvP anyways, we would lose little by not taking the 41 and higher point talents.
As an aside, I think it would be very impressive and fun if there was a talent to actually increase the cast time on some of our spells, provided the spell damage coefficient also increased! Provided you didn't have to cast all your spells at the longer cast time, think of the mana savings associated with a 4 second shadowbolt for instance.
06/04/08, 6:15 PM
Provided you didn't have to cast all your spells at the longer cast time, think of the mana savings associated with a 4 second shadowbolt for instance.
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